Fish out of water! :)

[Ignatius21]

After a good 9 months or so of interacting with people here on this forum, and of course reading a lot of books, I finally wandered into an Orthodoxy liturgy, almost by accident. I was on business in Colorado Springs and figured I should go to church somewhere that Wednesday. I looked around at churches on Google Maps (probably never originally designed for religious use) and found an OCA church just about a mile from my hotel. My coworker was going to an Ash Wednesday Mass that evening anyway, so I figured I'd take the opportunity to finally experience this rather than just read about it. I also assumed it would be an Ash Wednesday service. How Western of me.

The priest was very helpful and so were the people in the congregation. I had another clueless Protestant visitor near me so we made a good team, I think.

At any rate, on the whole I was at first confused, then befuddled, but finally overcome with quite a sense of awe at the service. I certainly didn't catch every word, but I recognized a huge portion of the chants from the Psalter. Certainly no accusation can stand that Scripture isn't a big part of the worship. I had heard that EO churches often don't have pews, and this one didn't, which at first I thought was kind of an absurd idea. After standing for almost the entire liturgy, I have to admit that I now wish they'd take the pews out of my own Presbyterian church! This was the first I'd ever actually exerted effort in worship. People around me bowed, knelt, and prostrated. At first it seemed almost chaotic for people to move around, lighting candles and such, but I came to realize that people were far more actively worshipping than they ever could just sitting motionless in one place. Though my own tradition tends to think of using images in worship as idolatry, it was quite evident to me that it was no such thing. In fact, for some reason I couldn't seem to escape the gaze of an icon of Christ with the crown of thorns--almost like He was looking at me. Very powerful.

For the last few years I've been accustomed to sitting in a pew (standing during the reading of Scripture) where the congregation takes down notes silently during the 50-minute sermons. Hymns are sung from the hymnal. There's a certain austere beauty to that, but the other night I prostrated myself before God for the first time in my life and oddly didn't care if I looked goofy or did it the wrong way. There's something more worshipful about that. And during the (very short ) sermon, people all gathered around and sat down. It really brought out the idea of the congregation being a family gathered around the father.

A couple of questions that maybe someone can help me with:

1. In EO churches that have pews, do people still mill around freely, prostrate, etc.? It would seem hard to do with fixed benches in the way. After the other night, I suddenly feel much more like a spectator sitting in a pew, than a participant.

2. During the 100 minute service, I only heard people respond or "sing along" maybe twice...otherwise it was like a sung dialogue between the priest and the choir. It seemed odd that the people themselves didn't sing. Is that typical?

3. Things looked pretty "free form" to me but I wasn't sure what I was seeing...are there set times when everyone always crosses him/herself, prostrates, kisses an icon, etc., or do people sort of do those things as they feel moved to do them? Maybe some combination?

 

[Kristos]

1- to some degree, but the pews are very limiting.
2- this can vary significantly. I personally like to sing along with the choir. What they are singing is the part of the people, the ecclesia, but for a myriad of reasons, many people are content to let the choir do the singing.
3- crossing is somewhat personal, but prostrations are prescribed during the prayer of St Ephriam, which is said during lent, also since this was a presanctified liturgy, a full prostration during the entrance of the Body of Christ (which was consecrated the Sunday before).

 

[Ignatius21]

Thanks Kristos. I would imagine that singing along comes with a lot of experience and memorization. What a great thing to memorize.

So if a church has pews, somebody *could* stand where he or she wanted, and prostrate according to tradition, etc. even if it meant leaving the pew and maybe sticking out if nobody else is doing it?

I'm half tempted to do it at my next church service and see how many people there faint...

 

[Mary of Bethany]

You were at Ss Constantine & Helen? Beautiful temple!

The service you attended is one that is only done during the Great Fast, called the Liturgy of the PreSanctified Gifts. It is actually a mixture of Vespers (the first part, which is probably when you were aware of hearing the Psalms read, and hymns sung by the choir, etc) and then the Liturgy when the pre-sanctified (from the previous Sunday Divine Liturgy) Body and Blood of Christ are prepared and brought out to the faithful. There are many prostrations during this service, including for the Prayer of St Ephraim, which begins "O Lord and Master of my life . . .", and is also only prayed during Lent.

This service is one of the most beautiful of the whole year, and is much more penitential than a normal Divine Liturgy that is done on Sunday mornings and other times of the year.

As far as pews/no pews - way to touch on a hot button!

My parish is also OCA and without pews, and I definitely prefer pewless-ness, because Orthodox worship is "full body worship", especially during Lent. Those who worship in parishes with pews either get out of the pews into the aisles for prostrations, or they don't prostrate.

As far as "participation" - it's there but it looks a little different than in protestant worship. Even if people aren't singing with the choir (which varies from person to person and parish to parish) they are actively listening and praying. I don't ever feel as if I'm just observing; I always feel that I'm participating in the service along with everyone around me - those seen and those unseen.

As far as the "freeform worship" - it can look like that because there is freedom to move around, and not everyone has to be doing the same thing at all times. But there are times when everyone's attention is on the prayers, etc. It will vary from parish to parish, but each parish will have it's own "traditions" about making prostrations, about when to make the sign of the cross, etc. It's not as random as it may look.

Orthodoxy is very reverent and formal, but not stiff. There's never a performance aspect to it. At our parish, people are coming in and out of the altar area all the time to do things that need to be done, even while the service is going on. It's really like a very comfy, family gathering, yet at the same time we're always aware of where we are and in Whose presence we are.

Mary

 

[Ignatius21]

You were at Ss Constantine & Helen? Beautiful temple!

Yes, that's the one. Gorgeous. I'm guessing that many churches probably aren't that ornate, especially if the congregation took over the local ex-Baptist building I nearly sprained my neck looking up at the icon on the dome.

The service you attended is one that is only done during the Great Fast, called the Liturgy of the PreSanctified Gifts. It is actually a mixture of Vespers (the first part, which is probably when you were aware of hearing the Psalms read, and hymns sung by the choir, etc) and then the Liturgy when the pre-sanctified (from the previous Sunday Divine Liturgy) Body and Blood of Christ are prepared and brought out to the faithful. There are many prostrations during this service, including for the Prayer of St Ephraim, which begins "O Lord and Master of my life . . .", and is also only prayed during Lent.

This service is one of the most beautiful of the whole year, and is much more penitential than a normal Divine Liturgy that is done on Sunday mornings and other times of the year.

Ah...I knew the title of it but not that it was unique to Lent. I guess I picked the right day to blunder into my first Liturgy!

As far as pews/no pews - way to touch on a hot button!

My parish is also OCA and without pews, and I definitely prefer pewless-ness, because Orthodox worship is "full body worship", especially during Lent. Those who worship in parishes with pews either get out of the pews into the aisles for prostrations, or they don't prostrate.

It seemed like something likely to be a hot button. Until about 5:30 pm last Wednesday the idea of standing for a service seemed ridiculous to me. Now I want to do it again. There is much to be said for doing and not just reading about stuff. I would guess that pews just make things more awkward--if the people on either side don't get out, then you're tripping over legs and elbowing faces while you try to slither out into an aisle. There were chairs here and there at SS. Constantine and Helen, one of which I used when my knees began to cramp Prostrating was actually quite therapeutic.

As far as "participation" - it's there but it looks a little different than in protestant worship. Even if people aren't singing with the choir (which varies from person to person and parish to parish) they are actively listening and praying. I don't ever feel as if I'm just observing; I always feel that I'm participating in the service along with everyone around me - those seen and those unseen.

I've sung through six stanzas of hymns plenty of times without actually stopping to think about what I'm singing. Sometimes I'm focusing more on following the notes and reading sheet music than I am with the actual singing. One can be perfectly active and totally silent or be totally animated and yet still completely absent. I've been both. Although "totally animated" by Presbyterian standards usually amounts to shifting in one's seat.

Thank you for the helpful comments!

 

[Kristos]

Thanks Kristos. I would imagine that singing along comes with a lot of experience and memorization. What a great thing to memorize.

So if a church has pews, somebody *could* stand where he or she wanted, and prostrate according to tradition, etc. even if it meant leaving the pew and maybe sticking out if nobody else is doing it?

I'm half tempted to do it at my next church service and see how many people there faint...

I'm glad you enjoyed it.

Yes, many people in churches with pews will move around to facilitate prostration, or some might just kneel - obviously this depends on how packed the church is.

LOL

 

[E.C.]

1. In EO churches that have pews, do people still mill around freely, prostrate, etc.? It would seem hard to do with fixed benches in the way. After the other night, I suddenly feel much more like a spectator sitting in a pew, than a participant.

2. During the 100 minute service, I only heard people respond or "sing along" maybe twice...otherwise it was like a sung dialogue between the priest and the choir. It seemed odd that the people themselves didn't sing. Is that typical?

3. Things looked pretty "free form" to me but I wasn't sure what I was seeing...are there set times when everyone always crosses him/herself, prostrates, kisses an icon, etc., or do people sort of do those things as they feel moved to do them? Maybe some combination?

1) I was at a Greek parish last night and noticed a few people moving out of the pews to prostrate.

2) That tends to depend on the parish from what I've noticed. I've visited parishes that has a three person choir doing allllllllllllllllll the singing whereas at my own parish a lot of people in the church will sing at the parts that they know. We even have a little paper by the door with the troparia and kontakia for that Sunday so those who wish to sing may grab the little sheet and do so.

There was a time when my parish was dieing out and it was a one person choir because that one person knew all the hymns and things to sing during the Liturgy and when to sing them. Now it is a fairly good sized choir of about twelve people with bits of the congregation singing here and there.


3) People will venerate icons when they wish. On some feast days such as the Feast of the Holy Cross there are parts when everyone (who is able) will prostrate. Whenever one enters the altar we prostrate except on major feast days.

Orthodoxy is very reverent and formal, but not stiff. There's never a performance aspect to it. At our parish, people are coming in and out of the altar area all the time to do things that need to be done, even while the service is going on. It's really like a very comfy, family gathering, yet at the same time we're always aware of where we are and in Whose presence we are.

This.

People are going in and out of the church all the time for who-knows-or-cares sorts of reasons. There's a certain flow of the Liturgy that, in my opinion, can not be found anywhere else.

 

[Epiphanius]

I'm glad you were able to experience an Orthodox Liturgy. I am a recent convert myself (two years this lent) and it is definitely true that one can only understand so much about Orthodoxy without actually going and experiencing it. I am glad you had a good experience.

 

[Dorothea]

Yes, depends on the church - the pews. If they purchased an existing Protestant Church, the pews are usually still there because I've been told it's more expensive to rip them out than to just let them stay. Our church as pews (bench type w/out cushions) because it was a baptist church 12 or so years ago when we purchased it.

I moved out of the pews to prostrate for the St. Ephraim prayer and we were on our knees, bent over on the floor during the entrance of the Holy Gifts.

As far as singing in the choir. I believe it's more of a Western thing. My mom has told me on more than one occasion that she doesn't really think the congregation needs to sing since back in Greece, only the choir sings and not the congregation. She said that's a Western adoption. *shrugs* I sing the Greek hymns. That's the only time I can read Greek. LOL Can't read a word of it in icons and such. Ugh.

We do the hymns in Greek and the Liturgy in about 80% English/20% Greek. Vespers, it's about the same.

Sounds like you had a really good and edifying experience. That's really great!

 

[Dorothea]

It seemed like something likely to be a hot button. Until about 5:30 pm last Wednesday the idea of standing for a service seemed ridiculous to me. Now I want to do it again. There is much to be said for doing and not just reading about stuff. I would guess that pews just make things more awkward--if the people on either side don't get out, then you're tripping over legs and elbowing faces while you try to slither out into an aisle. There were chairs here and there at SS. Constantine and Helen, one of which I used when my knees began to cramp Prostrating was actually quite therapeutic.

The last time our Metropolitan (archbishop) Isaiah visited on Theophany, down at coffee hour in the hall, he said to us that the Protestant Churches are more about the mind in worship. They don't use the whole body. Orthodoxy is whole body - mind, body, spirit, all senses in worship.

btw, any other time, in our churches, we don't really prostrate, but do half prostrations or just cross ourselves in the pews. I don't think the Greeks do much prostrating, to tell you the truth. There are some that will, but not a large majority in regular services. But it's always so respectful when you do so! It does feel more like you're showing more reverence to Him that way. Starting last night, the churches in our area do Sunday Vespers at different churches for the 4 Sundays of Lent. Our church is last this year. So last night, it was in Denver at the Metropolis. Next week is St. John's in Pueblo. Then it's Sts Constantine and Helen (OCA) about 5 miles from our church, and then St. Mary's in Calhan (OCA)(about 40 or so minutes from our church), and then ours. So, it's nice when we go to Sts Constantine and Helen because there are no pews and I prostrate fully with no problems there. St. Mary's has pews.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I wish I could add to answer your questions, so I'll say that I am glad you had an edifying experience!

 

[MariaRegina]

I love the Pre-Sanctified Liturgy in Greek or in English. The hymns are so beautiful.

 

[E.C.]

Can't spell pew without ew




...I made a funny!

 

[MariaRegina]

Can't spell pew without ew




...I made a funny!

Ah, puns!

 

[HandmaidenOfGod]

Yay! You finally got to go to a Liturgy! Congratulations!

I'm glad it was a positive experience.

It should be said that even for parishes with pews, the faithful do not sit the entire time. It's more of a combination of sit/stand/kneel throughout the Liturgy.

Orthodox worship encompasses all five senses, and is very physical, with or without pews.

 

[Apophatic80]

After a good 9 months or so of interacting with people here on this forum, and of course reading a lot of books, I finally wandered into an Orthodoxy liturgy, almost by accident. I was on business in Colorado Springs and figured I should go to church somewhere that Wednesday. I looked around at churches on Google Maps (probably never originally designed for religious use) and found an OCA church just about a mile from my hotel. My coworker was going to an Ash Wednesday Mass that evening anyway, so I figured I'd take the opportunity to finally experience this rather than just read about it. I also assumed it would be an Ash Wednesday service. How Western of me.

The priest was very helpful and so were the people in the congregation. I had another clueless Protestant visitor near me so we made a good team, I think.

At any rate, on the whole I was at first confused, then befuddled, but finally overcome with quite a sense of awe at the service. I certainly didn't catch every word, but I recognized a huge portion of the chants from the Psalter. Certainly no accusation can stand that Scripture isn't a big part of the worship. I had heard that EO churches often don't have pews, and this one didn't, which at first I thought was kind of an absurd idea. After standing for almost the entire liturgy, I have to admit that I now wish they'd take the pews out of my own Presbyterian church! This was the first I'd ever actually exerted effort in worship. People around me bowed, knelt, and prostrated. At first it seemed almost chaotic for people to move around, lighting candles and such, but I came to realize that people were far more actively worshipping than they ever could just sitting motionless in one place. Though my own tradition tends to think of using images in worship as idolatry, it was quite evident to me that it was no such thing. In fact, for some reason I couldn't seem to escape the gaze of an icon of Christ with the crown of thorns--almost like He was looking at me. Very powerful.

For the last few years I've been accustomed to sitting in a pew (standing during the reading of Scripture) where the congregation takes down notes silently during the 50-minute sermons. Hymns are sung from the hymnal. There's a certain austere beauty to that, but the other night I prostrated myself before God for the first time in my life and oddly didn't care if I looked goofy or did it the wrong way. There's something more worshipful about that. And during the (very short ) sermon, people all gathered around and sat down. It really brought out the idea of the congregation being a family gathered around the father.

A couple of questions that maybe someone can help me with:

1. In EO churches that have pews, do people still mill around freely, prostrate, etc.? It would seem hard to do with fixed benches in the way. After the other night, I suddenly feel much more like a spectator sitting in a pew, than a participant.

2. During the 100 minute service, I only heard people respond or "sing along" maybe twice...otherwise it was like a sung dialogue between the priest and the choir. It seemed odd that the people themselves didn't sing. Is that typical?

3. Things looked pretty "free form" to me but I wasn't sure what I was seeing...are there set times when everyone always crosses him/herself, prostrates, kisses an icon, etc., or do people sort of do those things as they feel moved to do them? Maybe some combination?

Hey, I'm glad you went to a PSL service and it didn't freak you out. I belong to the Antiochian Orthodox Church in Springdale, Arkansas (St. Nicholas), and we have chairs until we get our pews in from Fort Smith. Yeah people prostrate, but unless they are in the aisle they make a modified short prostration, not a full one. Secondly, my congregation sings Byzantine chants and songs and the laity sing along quite loudly. And thirdly, most icon kissing is done before coming into the Royal Doors, but some of the people kiss the Iconostasis icons as well, most of us, however, do no such thing. I and the members of my parish cross ourselves when we hear the Trinity mentioned or when we bow to the Theotokos and Christ at the end of the Ektenias. I would think it's done that way in every Orthodox parish but I could be wrong. I've never been to an OCA or ROCOR parish. It would be nice if I could go to one in the not-so-distant future.

 

[cobweb]

I'm glad you enjoyed it. My godmother used to go there and says that the people are really nice.

 

[frmichael]

Many years ago I used to live in Denver, and know most of the churches in the area. Saint Marks and Saint Augustine both have pews - and I don't know how they manage. My present (Western Rite) mission has no pews - there are a few chairs - but no one uses them - well, there's no time to sit in the ancient Western Rite. And all of our congregation sings - we print pew copies of the variables and psalms for the day sio that everyone can sing them.
Western churches didn't have pews until comparatively recently. In England, Saint Paul's (Anglican) cathedral in London had no pews until late nineteenth century.
There is a document still existing of the American Presbyterian church in the last century making it plain that one cannot pray while sitting - and that the proper position of prayer is standing!

Fr. Michael

 

[Dostoevsky]

Hey wturri,
glad you finally went! (I know I'm new, but I've been reading these boards for a while...) Father Anthony at St. Constantine and Helen is my spiritual father...one of the most amazing people I know. The presanctified liturgy is also one of my favorites.

Good luck with your search!

 

[MariaRegina]

Many years ago I used to live in Denver, and know most of the churches in the area. Saint Marks and Saint Augustine both have pews - and I don't know how they manage. My present (Western Rite) mission has no pews - there are a few chairs - but no one uses them - well, there's no time to sit in the ancient Western Rite. And all of our congregation sings - we print pew copies of the variables and psalms for the day sio that everyone can sing them.
Western churches didn't have pews until comparatively recently. In England, Saint Paul's (Anglican) cathedral in London had no pews until late nineteenth century.
There is a document still existing of the American Presbyterian church in the last century making it plain that one cannot pray while sitting - and that the proper position of prayer is standing!

Fr. Michael

Thanks for a very informative post, Father.
Is that American Presbyterian document about standing available online?