First post to this board...looking for some insight

[Lucretius]

???

Mr. Gruff the atheist obviously doesn't know that even without lengthy scientific endeavor we could have produced a machine as remarkable as the computer.

 

[Robert the Pilegrim]

Joshua is a narrative. And Joshua 10 is a real miracle. I'm not sure what you mean by reading Joshua "literally".

I see you missed my earlier post.

This makes a rather strong point about cultural assumptions, you read Joshua and see nothing wrong with reading it literally, when a true literal reading of it requires a belief that the earth is still and the Sun revolves about the Earth every 24 hours.

 

[Robert the Pilegrim]

See, this isn't about religion, it is about who one believes Jesus is and why one believes Jesus did the things He did.

Actually I think it is about your arrogance and inability to see the world from any point of view beyond that extremely narrow one that you have been taught.

 

[Linux98]

That would make your verse below more relevant. I suspect you are infering that a Theistic evolutionist denies Jesus.

Nope, that was in response to post #20 and #31. I am saying that you are not a Christian if you don't believe the basic and fundamental truths of Christianity. And I'm talking the very basics: Jesus is God, He lived a sinless life and died on the cross to pay for the sins of those who believe in Him.

I don't have a problem with a TE claiming to be a Christian as long as he believes in the most simple basic truths. But I certainly don't think TEs have a good grasp of the sovereignty of God; that is a secondary issue and not a primary truth.

 

[Linux98]

Actually I think it is about your arrogance and inability to see the world from any point of view beyond that extremely narrow one that you have been taught.

Jumping to conclusions again, Robert?

 

[Linux98]

I see you missed my earlier post.

This makes a rather strong point about cultural assumptions, you read Joshua and see nothing wrong with reading it literally, when a true literal reading of it requires a belief that the earth is still and the Sun revolves about the Earth every 24 hours.

Ok, so have you ever used the term "sunrise". And have you ever said "Oh, what a beautiful sunset."

Don't waste your money going to Hawaii, Robert, you will get a lot of strange looks when you say the atmospheric refraction of the sun is beautiful at this angle.

 

[MuAndNu]

This post is like… a joke… right? You aren't being serious, am I correct?

Come on. We've got a newbie here.

 

[MuAndNu]

Evolution is just a theory. The big bang is just a theory. I believe the bible is literal. Sure, some things seem strange to us, but lots of things seem strange to me. Like believing apes changed into people. I'm not even close to being a scientist. In fact, I greatly dislike science, but fossils have been found with food in their mouths, proving that they froze instantly. I've heard that it's possible, since fossils didn't take years to freeze, that the world isn't as old as most people believe. Don't you think this could be a possibility?

We're really not all so testy. Welcome.

BTW, you've got the same birth date as my brother and the same birth year as my sister. Interesting.

 

[Robert the Pilegrim]

Ok, so have you ever used the term "sunrise". And have you ever said "Oh, what a beautiful sunset."

Yes, and I understand exactly what it means.
For 3000 years faithful believers interpreted it differently, what makes you think that you are any more accurate in interpreting Gen 1-11?

 

[Robert the Pilegrim]

Jumping to conclusions again, Robert?

Having just read the post before the one I'm replying to any jumping I did appears to have been on target.

 

[Lilandra]

consideringlily]

Jesus spoke about this many times. He told Pharisees who thought being religious put them in a different category from other people that they should follow the intent of the law not the letter of the law.

[/i]


Like I said, she is obviously in the light-gray area. But she is certainly free to openly express her beliefs about the person of Jesus Christ and prove me wrong Christian doesn't need to be shy about that if they are really a Christian, right? . ASee, this isn't about religion, it is about who one believes Jesus is and why one believes Jesus did the things He did.



Matthew 10:32-33

"If anyone acknowledges me publicly here on earth, I will openly acknowledge that person before my Father in heaven. But if anyone denies me here on earth, I will deny that person before my Father in heaven."


​

You throw out an inference that you know and God knows you were doing and when someone calls you, you say you were talking about something else.

Clearly you quoted me and Gluadys is never shy to share what she believes. You are not listening and sticking to your bias about TEs rather than listening to what she actually says.

Own what you say it is right there in print.

Nope, that was in response to post #20 and #31. I am saying that you are not a Christian if you don't believe the basic and fundamental truths of Christianity. And I'm talking the very basics: Jesus is God, He lived a sinless life and died on the cross to pay for the sins of those who believe in Him.

I don't have a problem with a TE claiming to be a Christian as long as he believes in the most simple basic truths. But I certainly don't think TEs have a good grasp of the sovereignty of God; that is a secondary issue and not a primary truth.

 

[gluadys]

"Jesus is God and I place my faith and trust in His works and His death as wholly necessary and wholly sufficient to pay for my sins." is a far cry from "I was raised that way and I feel comfortable going to a Christian church."

I wasn't going to respond to this, but since it continues to draw comment i will.

In his response to the OP, Robert said:

Modern Deism I reject because in my experience God speaks and is not remote.
I don't see how Pantheism allows for a personal God either.

I have prayed and felt listened to, I know very rational academicly talented people who are certain of times of God's presense in their lives.

My experience is also of a God who speaks and is not remote, of being listened to when I pray, of being certain of times of God's presence in my life.

Also, in my experience, this is closely related to my belief in Jesus Christ and my commitment to him as Lord and Saviour.

That is where I stand personally. And I believe that gives me the right to call myself a Christian.

But years of conversing with people of other faiths has also taught me that what I experience, they also experience.

If I describe Christ as the one for whom and in whom and through whom all creation was made and holds together, my Hindu friend says, "Why that is just like what the Bhagavad Gita says about Lord Krishna."

If I describe the release from bondage to sin, and the freedom of salvation, my Zen Buddhist friend sees a parallel to her experience of satori.

If I describe the intimacy of communion with God through prayer, my Muslim, Baha'i and Sikh friends nod and say :"Yes, it is like that for us, too."

If I speak of how the contemplation of creation draws me close to the Creator, my aboriginal and Wiccan friends say, "Yes, that is what we feel too."

I have come to the point where I am not sure if anything I believe and experience as a Christian cannot be believed and experienced by people who do not call themselves Christians.

That doesn't make me any less Christian or any less committed to my faith. But it does make me consider that non-Christians can be as close to God, as saved from sin as Christians. They just describe their experience of salvation and communion with God differently than I do. Sometimes I wonder if one can be a Christian in one's soul without knowing it in one's mind.

Christians in

China and North Korea give up their comfort and well being to be "real" Christians. It isn't a matter of differing "dialect" when you completely obfuscate your fundamental Christian beliefs.

I agree with the analysis of the other poster. In fact, Paul addressed this very issue of "picking and choosing" in 1Cor15:12-20 >> if you don’t believe Christ was raised from the dead then your "trust in God is useless". Hence, why call yourself a Christian?

But where am I doing any of this? My beliefs are quite clear--they are set out succinctly in the Nicene Creed. Where have I retracted them? Where have I done any "picking and choosing" in regard to the basics of Christian faith?

To be clear, I am not saying you aren't a Christian.

And why do I get the sense that the only reason you are not is because of forum rules?

 

[DJ_Ghost]

Evolution is just a theory. The big bang is just a theory.

Firstly welcome to the forum.

May I suggest you learn what the term Theory means in a scientific context. A theory is an explanatory frame work that is our best explanation of all available evidence and data, that can be tested by making predictions of what we should and should not find if the theory is accurate, and which has undergone rigorous scientific investigation. In the case of Evolution the theory has been under investigation for 150 years. Science has thrown every attempt to falsify it that we can come up with at the theory and it has always held, it is a better supported theory than almost any other in science. That includes the theory of gravity.

So next time you are tempted to use the “only a theory” line remember that gravity is also only a theory and that of the two the theory of evolution is better understood and supported than the theory of gravity. That begins to put things in perspective.

Ghost

 

[Linux98]

If I speak of how the contemplation of creation draws me close to the Creator, my aboriginal and Wiccan friends say, "Yes, that is what we feel too."

...make me consider that non-Christians can be as close to God, as saved from sin as Christians. They just describe their experience of salvation and communion with God differently than I do....

...My beliefs are quite clear--they are set out succinctly in the Nicene Creed....

You say you adhere to the Nicene Creed yet you use a "Wiccan" as an example of someone who can be as close to God as a Christian. How is that possible when they deny Jesus as Lord and refuse his work on the cross? - same goes for every other one of the religions you listed.

No one who denies Jesus is Lord is as close to God as a Christian. No one who places their faith in their own works to gain salvation is as close to God as a Christian. In fact, they have no part with God. For you to teach otherwise is reprehensible. I am now thoroughly sorry I pressed the issue.

And why do I get the sense that the only reason you are not is because of forum rules?

It is also against the forum rules to call yourself a Christian if you are not a Christian. The reason I haven't said you are not a Christian is because I like to be sure I am accurate before I make that claim. I also want to be sure I give you a chance to explain yourself. If you had denied Jesus was God and denied his work on the cross I would have certainly said you are not a Christian.

 

[Robert the Pilegrim]

Actually I think it is about your arrogance and inability to see the world from any point of view beyond that extremely narrow one that you have been taught.

Your "grading" Gluadys as "light gray", your belief that she is answerable to you, ie that if she doesn't confess her Christianity here and now in the way you find acceptable you are justified in publicly doubting her Christianity, your belief that TEs don't have propper grasp of the sovereignty of God, all speak of your arrogance, and that last speaks to your problem with seeing from other PsOV.

I believe that Gluadys's post that more or less set this off (post 31) was an attempt to get you to expand your POV.

 

[Robert the Pilegrim]

You say you adhere to the Nicene Creed yet you use a "Wiccan" as an example of someone who can be as close to God as a Christian. How is that possible when they deny Jesus as Lord and refuse his work on the cross? - same goes for every other one of the religions you listed.

Maybe they deny Jesus because they see Christianity being represented by repressive, narrowminded bigots* and think that is the whole picture.

I don't think Wiccans can be as close to God as Christians can be, but I do think that there are some Wiccans who are closer than some confessing Christians.

*before you get upset I am not referring to you. I do think you are narrowminded but I haven't seen any evidence that you are particularly repressive or bigotted.

 

[Lilandra]

if Jesus were to look at the gray areas(that everyone has) he had instead of applying mercy to him?

Your "grading" Gluadys as "light gray", your belief that she is answerable to you, ie that if she doesn't confess her Christianity here and now in the way you find acceptable you are justified in publicly doubting her Christianity, your belief that TEs don't have propper grasp of the sovereignty of God, all speak of your arrogance, and that last speaks to your problem with seeing from other PsOV.

I believe that Gluadys's post that more or less set this off (post 31) was an attempt to get you to expand your POV.

 

[Bradford]

Too much flaming.

Closed.