First new gay thread

[YamiB]

Again, can you cite a law that makes it that way? And for what it's worth I don't even beilieve what you're saying is true. I've visited completely unrelated people in the hospital and I've had visits from unrelated people. Sounds like a red herring indeed

You're honestly saying that non-family members will never be denied visitation to a person?

 

[mpok1519]

I think he knows it; I just think he doesn't want to admit he knows it.

I can't imagine a single person on earth with a soul who'd deny visitation to someone on their deathbed for someone they love.

 

[MachZer0]

You're honestly saying that non-family members will never be denied visitation to a person?

I'm saying that I'm not aware of any law that prevents such visitation and I'm saying that my experience suggests you are mistaken

 

[mpok1519]

theres no law protecting such visitation, is the argument mach.

 

[MachZer0]

theres no law protecting such visitation, is the argument mach.

Then can you cite the law that protects heterosexuals in such cases?

 

[mpok1519]

I dont think things work the way you think they do Mach.

 

[MachZer0]

I dont think things work the way you think they do Mach.

Well, I have asked you for a law that prevents homosexuals from hospital visitations, and you can't cite one. I asked you for a law that protects heterosexuals' rights to hospital visitation, and you can't produce it. So it certainly appears that things don't work the way that YOU think they do

 

[mpok1519]

uh, no. lol

Regardless of laws, people are denied rights not only by the govt, but also by institutions supported by govt.

You think that there are laws concerning every little tick tock of society? Of course not; life would SUCK if there was a law concerning every facet of society here, there everywhere; that'd be a dictatorship, I suppose, a place you might enjoy living in, but I doubt it.

all I know is, if I'm a lesbian, and my partner is dying in the ICU, I cannot visit her, even if I am the closest 'next of kin' because legally we are not family; the law says only couples of different sex can get married, and the hospital POLICY says only close families can visit each other if theyre dying.

Law, and policy interact with each other, but in no way are the same thing.

I don't know what you're arguing for Mach; but it seems kinda twisted if you AGREE with a hospital's decision to deny visitation to one's partner simply bc they aren't legally related to each other. Its not only twisted, its a bit depraved.

 

[tulc]

I'm saying that I'm not aware of any law that prevents such visitation and I'm saying that my experience suggests you are mistaken

hmmm how about if the next of kin decides they don't want the same sex partner allowed access to the patient? I've seen that happen a couple of times (not lately, a while ago)
seen this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_of_kin

In cases of medical emergency, where a person is incapable (either legally because of age or mental infirmity, or because they are unconscious) of making decisions for themselves and they have no spouse or children, medical decisions can be made by the next of kin in preference to the wishes of medical personnel.
The inability of persons who are not in a legal marriage to make decisions with respect to the care of a live-in partner have resulted in many jurisdictions giving live-in partners rights equivalent to a spouse in such situations, even though most jurisdictions still do not require non-spouses to be made beneficiaries of estates (it is improper in most jurisdictions to disinherit a spouse). The inability of same-sex partners to have rights with respect to a partner's medical care or funeral arrangements over and above those of the next of kin is one of the main reasons behind litigation to require same-sex marriage or its equivalent.

it's wiki, so the usual disclaimers apply.
tulc(who preferred the Swayze movie himself)

 

[mpok1519]

this is why I think denying rights to homosexuals is not only immoral, unethical and sad, its just down-right wrong and depressing.

 

[Beanieboy]

Were I in a life or death situation, my parents or sibbling could step in as next of kin, and counter our wishes (in the US) and I would have no say. They trump my relationship, which is not recognized. Were I his wife, I would have the ability to make the decision. By banning gay marriage, you protect this injustice. Why? Does it make you marriage any stronger? Does it make a society that is concerned about their neighbor? Does it serve God to see things like this?

As this progresses, however, things are changing. Kids today have a very different view of homosexuality, have GayStraightAliances in High School, know gay parents and friends, etc. I think gay marriage is now just a matter of time, but its so strange to be in Canada, and see the US look decades behind.

 

[jcook922]

uh, no. lol

Regardless of laws, people are denied rights not only by the govt, but also by institutions supported by govt.

You think that there are laws concerning every little tick tock of society? Of course not; life would SUCK if there was a law concerning every facet of society here, there everywhere; that'd be a dictatorship, I suppose, a place you might enjoy living in, but I doubt it.

all I know is, if I'm a lesbian, and my partner is dying in the ICU, I cannot visit her, even if I am the closest 'next of kin' because legally we are not family; the law says only couples of different sex can get married, and the hospital POLICY says only close families can visit each other if theyre dying.

Law, and policy interact with each other, but in no way are the same thing.

I don't know what you're arguing for Mach; but it seems kinda twisted if you AGREE with a hospital's decision to deny visitation to one's partner simply bc they aren't legally related to each other. Its not only twisted, its a bit depraved.

Seems like you're <staff edit> about nothing, I've had friends in the hospital and was given NO trouble seeing them. Car accidents, or even just seeing them after an operation that wasn't life threatening.

 

[tulc]

Seems like you're [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]ing about nothing, I've had friends in the hospital and was given NO trouble seeing them. Car accidents, or even just seeing them after an operation that wasn't life threatening.

uhmmm were you the patients gay lover that his parents hated?
tulc(otherwise there's not really a comparison)

 

[MachZer0]

uh, no. lol

Regardless of laws, people are denied rights not only by the govt, but also by institutions supported by govt.

You think that there are laws concerning every little tick tock of society? Of course not; life would SUCK if there was a law concerning every facet of society here, there everywhere; that'd be a dictatorship, I suppose, a place you might enjoy living in, but I doubt it.

all I know is, if I'm a lesbian, and my partner is dying in the ICU, I cannot visit her, even if I am the closest 'next of kin' because legally we are not family; the law says only couples of different sex can get married, and the hospital POLICY says only close families can visit each other if theyre dying.

Law, and policy interact with each other, but in no way are the same thing.

I don't know what you're arguing for Mach; but it seems kinda twisted if you AGREE with a hospital's decision to deny visitation to one's partner simply bc they aren't legally related to each other. Its not only twisted, its a bit depraved.

hmmm how about if the next of kin decides they don't want the same sex partner allowed access to the patient? I've seen that happen a couple of times (not lately, a while ago)
seen this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_of_kin

it's wiki, so the usual disclaimers apply.
tulc(who preferred the Swayze movie himself)

Were I in a life or death situation, my parents or sibbling could step in as next of kin, and counter our wishes (in the US) and I would have no say. They trump my relationship, which is not recognized. Were I his wife, I would have the ability to make the decision. By banning gay marriage, you protect this injustice. Why? Does it make you marriage any stronger? Does it make a society that is concerned about their neighbor? Does it serve God to see things like this?

As this progresses, however, things are changing. Kids today have a very different view of homosexuality, have GayStraightAliances in High School, know gay parents and friends, etc. I think gay marriage is now just a matter of time, but its so strange to be in Canada, and see the US look decades behind.

These are all issues that can be dealt with using a little forethought, so nobody's rights are being violated. Everyone is being treated equally

 

[Beanieboy]

Seems like you're [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]ing about nothing, I've had friends in the hospital and was given NO trouble seeing them. Car accidents, or even just seeing them after an operation that wasn't life threatening.

I remember a case in Minnesota where two lesbians had been living together. One of them was hit by a drunk driver. Her parents forbid the other from seeing her, and got a court order, because they believed their relationship was immoral. When she was able to leave the hospital, she needed to be in someone's care, so the parents took her home, and again, forbade the partner from seeing her. Even when the woman indicated that she wanted to be with her partner, and pleaded with them, they wouldn't fulfill her wishes.

I think that is far more immoral than two women being in a loving relationship. You can see by the fruit each produces.

 

[Beanieboy]

These are all issues that can be dealt with using a little forethought, so nobody's rights are being violated. Everyone is being treated equally

By allowing gay marriage, you wouldn't have to go to a lawyer, get papers signed about Power of Attorney, etc. You could just get married, and it would take care of everything.

You don't have to approve of gay marriage, but to vote to disallow it is unConstitutional.

You may not approve of someone having wife number 7, but it's legal, as it should be. People should be able to make such decisions on their own, not be at the mercy of the majority that already has that right.

In Canada, they have gone one step further. One can be domestic partners (gay or straight), by living together for at least one year, or can marry (gay or straight). It works for everyone.

 

[mpok1519]

Seems like you're [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]ing about nothing, I've had friends in the hospital and was given NO trouble seeing them. Car accidents, or even just seeing them after an operation that wasn't life threatening.

Me too; but when a hospital's policy says that only close to kin can visit CERTAIN patients(ie, ICU patients), and whoever has durable power of attorney for health-care decisions, people can be discriminated against.

hypothetically, if I am gay, and if suddenly I am in a car accident(and note I have no close kin, the are all either dead or gone) and I have not yet given durable power of attorney for health-care decisions to my partner, the hospital can deny my partner visitation.

I don't know if you fully comprehend what we're talking about here, sooooo, please wash your mouth. =)

 

[mpok1519]

It amazes me to see no one have mentioned durable power of attorney for health care decisions in this thread.

 

[NPH]

These are all issues that can be dealt with using a little forethought, so nobody's rights are being violated. Everyone is being treated equally

http://www.marriageequality.org/meusa/facts.shtml?1049-federal

In 1997, the General Accounting Office of the Federal Government compiled a list of 1,049 rights and benefits which were related to civil marriage. In 2004 they did an update and found there were 1138 rights. The list includes thirteen categories of rights and benefits, including:

Social Security and Related Programs, Housing, and Food Stamps
Veterans' Benefits
Taxation
Federal Civilian and Military Service Benefits
Employment Benefits and Related Laws
Immigration, Naturalization, and Aliens
Trade, Commerce, and Intellectual Property
Financial Disclosure and Conflict of Interest
​

List of 1138 rights denied to homosexual couples.

 

[tulc]

These are all issues that can be dealt with using a little forethought, so nobody's rights are being violated. Everyone is being treated equally

Except what you and I got by signing a license and having a wedding ceremony they have to hire a lawyer and spends thousands of dollars to get and still not be sure it's going to be accepted.
tulc(needs more coffee, want some?)