First Commandment vs. First Amendment

[GreekOrthodox]

That’s very funny . I’m stealing it !

I guess the point, if you’re interested at all, is that the essence of our system of government tells Americans “FSM is alright, it’s your inalienable right to believe that if you want, you’re American even worshiping the FSM”. While Christianity says “FSM is not alright, you can’t believe that instead of or along with the Christian God, or else you’re not Christian”. That’s where I see the inevitable contradiction

Which is fine in my mind. Dr. Timothy Patistis, one of my professors in seminary, writes:

What secret to political life is hidden right before our eyes even within the Great and Holy Week? The secret is this: Civilization requires the marriage of two conflicting sets of ethical values. Moreover, because these valuations of morality are in conflict, their marriage always takes a miracle. One approach to social ethics regards consent as the ultimate touchstone of morality. This view emphasizes the rights of the individual. A second approach regards mutual support as the hallmark of genuine moral order. This view emphasizes the rights of the community itself. The first view is appropriate to business; it relies on contract. The second view is appropriate to government; it relies on law and regulation. Because these views are both needed, yet are also in conflict, ancient societies turned to religion to make the civic union possible.

Praying for a President  - Society Articles - Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America​

 

[Frėėthînkėr999]

No, complementary. The 1A makes the US a free country where you can choose to serve the Lord, or not. But if you do choose to serve the Lord, the 1C shows you how to do it. The two writs operate at different levels.

Hey I haven’t thought of it that way. It fits, from the perspective of logic and motivation of the people who wrote the first amendment, all of them Christian or at least Christian deists.

I still see a glaring contraction in essence and morals: yes, you’re free to not be Christian in this country, but once you do, you’re immediately deemed morally corrupt by the very essence of the first commandment, and deserving of an eternity of torture, agony and conscious suffering in hëlł

Unless, of course, Christianity is accepting of non-Christian morality, even if it doesn’t come accompanied by a statement of belief in the Christian deity. I doubt too many Christians accept this, but I could be wrong

And isn’t government basically condoning sin, according to Christian belief, when they say “you’re free to not follow the Christian god”, knowing that doing that would be a sin in Christianity ?

 

[GreekOrthodox]

Hey I haven’t thought of it that way. It fits, from the perspective of logic and motivation of the people who wrote the first amendment, all of them Christian or at least Christian deists.

And isn’t government basically condoning sin, according to Christian belief, when they say “you’re free to not follow the Christian god”, knowing that doing that would be a sin in Christianity ?

Would you prefer that one Christian body is chosen to be "THE" church in the US especially if it is not yours? What if Eastern Orthodoxy were made the church of the US, what would you do then?

 

[paul1149]

I still see a glaring contraction in essence and morals: yes, you’re free to not be Christian in this country, but once you do, you’re immediately deemed morally corrupt by the very essence of the first commandment, and deserving of an eternity of torture, agony and conscious suffering in hëlł

Unless, of course, Christianity is accepting of non-Christian morality, even if it doesn’t come accompanied by a statement of belief in the Christian deity. I doubt too many Christians accept this, but I could be wrong

And isn’t government basically condoning sin, according to Christian belief, when they say “you’re free to not follow the Christian god”, knowing that doing that would be a sin in Christianity ?

It might not work theologically exactly as you understand it. Mankind was sold into sin by its father, Adam. We did not choose it. We inherited Adam's fallen nature and were held hostage to sin and its consequence, death. "Where there is no law, sin is not imputed" - Rom 5:13.

The Bible is all about free will. Starting with the warning to Adam not to eat the fruit, and then to Cain not to act on his envy, and proceeding to all the exhortations of the NT, it constantly exhorts man to turn from sin and to chose the right path. But it never forces anyone to do so. The FA mirrors that by affording liberty to do as one chooses, without coercion. Governmental coercion is applied only in matters pertaining to the common good - essential matters such as crime, maintaining public order, etc.

It's an exquisite system, and it wasn't easy to come to it. But the Constitution is based on the dualistic Biblical view of the nature of man, whereby he is made in the image of God and therefore deserves respect, but he is subject to sin and therefore cannot be implicitly trusted. So we have a government divided into three opposing branches, each entrusted only with specific enumerated powers. And we have the Bill of Rights, including the FA, to guard the rights of the individual.

So the FA isn't saying it's ok to sin. It's saying that's not our purview. Just be a good citizen, and meanwhile we'll protect the church's right to try to get you Saved.

 

[Fantine]

God gave mankind free will. Call it a heavenly first amendment, if you will.

The Constitution also recognizes that freedom.

A commandment doesn't remove free will. Mankind has the freedom to honor that commandment or not.

What do Americans say with their First Amendment freedoms? Many use that free will for good purposes. Some push the envelope with pornography or even inciting violence.

When people use their free speech to advocate for human rights they honor God.

 

[Frėėthînkėr999]

What if Eastern Orthodoxy were made the church of the US, what would you do then?

If by “made the church of the US” you mean made the state church, we’re talking about an impossible event. It would be unconstitutional to make any religion the state religion

or, perhaps I’m not understanding the point you’re trying to make. My point is that even under the premise that the first amendment and the first commandment define different scopes of purview and are “complementary”, the moral contradiction in the essence of both is glaring and indisputable: once one chooses to exercise one’s first amendment right and not follow the Christian god, one is deemed morally abhorrent to Christianity. Deserving of an eternity of agony and conscious suffering in the “lake of sulfur and fire”

 

[GreekOrthodox]

Morning Freethinker,
I guess I do not see it as moral contradiction but as stated by Paul

"The Bible is all about free will. Starting with the warning to Adam not to eat the fruit, and then to Cain not to act on his envy, and proceeding to all the exhortations of the NT, it constantly exhorts man to turn from sin and to chose the right path. But it never forces anyone to do so. The FA mirrors that by affording liberty to do as one chooses, without coercion. Governmental coercion is applied only in matters pertaining to the common good - essential matters such as crime, maintaining public order, etc."

Basically earthly governments should have very little involvement in human religion. As in the regular liturgies, we pray for civil authorities that they may serve in peace. Even though earthly peace is nothing in comparison to the peace which passes all understanding, earthly peace affords us the opportunity and duty of serving each other in peace and in Christ.

 

[Frėėthînkėr999]

The Bible is all about free will ... it constantly exhorts man to turn from sin and to chose the right path. But it never forces anyone to do so.

Well ... I may digress here ... but when the outcome of using your free will to not follow the Christian god results in an eternity of agony, torture and conscious suffering while slow burning in a lake of fire ... then the first commandment is a lot more like an ultimatum than an exhortation

I guess the question, from the perspective of contradiction in the context of morality, is: are non-Christians considered morally abhorrent or morally corrupt, by the mere fact they don’t utter a statement of belief in the Christian god? If they are, then there’s your contradiction ... everyone is created equal according to our constitution, and our moral standing is not better or worse based merely on the religion we practice, or lack thereof

(thanks for your patience in this conversation, I hope I haven’t been disrespectful in my expressing these ideas)

 

[Frėėthînkėr999]

God gave mankind free will. Call it a heavenly first amendment, if you will

I respectfully disagree. The freedom (as in freedom of belief) in the first amendment is the foundational element. Exercise it and you’ll be living proof of the essence of the FA.

Freewill in Christianity is more like the artifact that will land you in hell: exercise this freedom to choose not to follow the Christian god, and you’re going to spend an eternity of agony and conscious suffering in an everlasting lake of fire.

That’s my laymen terms, of course. The theology is a lot more elegant, but isn’t that the essence of this? If it is, the first commandment is in no way a heavenly first amendment. It’s the opposite

Mankind has the freedom to honor that commandment or not.

And if mankind chooses not to honor the commandment, they’re doomed into eternal fire. That sounds more like an ultimatum. In my humble opinion, it is. That’s crux of the contradiction between the FA and the FC

 

[Fantine]

I don't see any difference--unless you believe that speaking up for human rights is sinful.

I think God commands us to speak out when human rights are denied. Jesus certainly was a human rights advocate.

 

[Brihaha]

This is a fascinating topic I have been pondering for quite some time. I think America is an anomaly of democracy given the first amendment and separation of church and state. I have only recently finished reading the entire bible during the pandemic. It remains fresh in my mind how God punished His own people and cast them out of Jerusalem. I believe America is punished as well. Having the freedoms to worship however and whomever has consequences. If we Americans could somehow agree to be a God fearing Christian nation using our free will this would likely please God. Yet even our so called Christians in America do not seem to adhere to the word. We love our free will and seem preoccupied with matters of this mortal world rather than living to please God in faith of the afterlife. There is little doubt we are punished for not worshipping Him but worshipping other deities. Freedoms of this life incur consequences in the afterlife. I appreciate this topic being introduced here. I'm a bit of a free thinker myself and enjoy reading and learning. Peace

 

[CRAZY_CAT_WOMAN]

The US was the first officially secular state.

The First Amendment and the First Commandment only come into conflict if you're trying to establish Christianity as the official religion of the US. (Or a theocracy. Or add a religious test to hold an office.)

Not that it hasn't been tried. There have been something like 40 formal attempts to have a reference to God or Christianity inserted into the US Constitution.

This started with the original constitutional convention (but the deists squashed the attempts). Its continued with various bills submitted to Congress all the way into the early 2000s. The peak was around the 1860s and 1870s, when the idea was a perennial issue for debate.

Lots of state level constitutions reference God or Christianity though. Something like 37 out of 50.

The first Commandment in the bible is for Gods people. Not for Government or secular people.

 

[Pommer]

If we Americans could somehow agree to be a God fearing Christian nation using our free will this would likely please God. Yet even our so called Christians in America do not seem to adhere to the word. We love our free will and seem preoccupied with matters of this mortal world rather than living to please God in faith of the afterlife. There is little doubt we are punished for not worshipping Him but worshipping other deities. Freedoms of this life incur consequences in the afterlife.

[You’ve wandered into the area that abounds with heathens like me, so “fair warning”]

A lot of us do not subscribe to the God of the Bible and the only life we know that we have is this one, right here, right now.
Some of that number (the majority, I would hope, but I don’t know), are working, donating, volunteering to make this country and planet better for more people.
Keeping a sky-god happy is rather low on the agenda.
Have a good Memorial Day.

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

Our ancestors came to America to escape the enforced RELIGION imposed upon them, to freely worship God as they wished. There is no paradox or conflict between the first amendment and the first commandment at all. One is secular and the other spiritual.

 

[Pommer]

Our ancestors came to America to escape the enforced RELIGION imposed upon them, to freely worship God as they wished

You might wanna check the actual history...yes, they came to the New World to escape persecution, but they enforced their version of Christianity quite strictly; the word “puritanical” derives its meaning from them.

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

I did check the actual history, and had a minor in it in college! Note there were several groups, not just the Mayflower.

 

[Pommer]

I did check the actual history, and had a minor in it in college! Note there were several groups, not just the Mayflower.

Right, but the Puritans were religious zealots, that was the cause of their “persecution”.

 

[Brihaha]

[You’ve wandered into the area that abounds with heathens like me, so “fair warning”]

A lot of us do not subscribe to the God of the Bible and the only life we know that we have is this one, right here, right now.
Some of that number (the majority, I would hope, but I don’t know), are working, donating, volunteering to make this country and planet better for more people.
Keeping a sky-god happy is rather low on the agenda.
Have a good Memorial Day.

I'll admit you raise a good point there. It's another reason this topic fascinates me. There are many people who don't necessarily believe in a deity or God. Yet I believe if these folks are working, donating or volunteering to make the world better it is likely the Holy Spirit inspiring them. Regardless of whether you believe in God, He believes in you. I appreciate your reply. Have a nice holiday yourself my friend. Peace

 

[ThatRobGuy]

I don't think they're at odds with each other...

That's because they're answering two different sets of questions and their prescriptions are within two different scopes.

Perhaps my opinion will be considered "invalid" because I'm an atheist (though I spent the first 16 years in the Baptist church)...

But, one is providing a prescription for what's required of an individual who's choosing to be part of a particular faith.

The other is a secular provision providing a limitation on the involvement of the US government in religious affairs.


Now, if the first commandment stated

"Thou shalt not have any other gods before me, nor shalt thou live in a nation that doesn't recognize me, exclusively, as the one true God"

...then there could be a potential conflict there.

 

[Pommer]

I don't think they're at odds with each other...

That's because they're answering two different sets of questions and their prescriptions are within two different scopes.

Perhaps my opinion will be considered "invalid" because I'm an atheist (though I spent the first 16 years in the Baptist church)...

But, one is providing a prescription for what's required of an individual who's choosing to be part of a particular faith.

The other is a secular provision providing a limitation on the involvement of the US government in religious affairs.


Now, if the first commandment stated

"Thou shalt not have any other gods before me, nor shalt thou live in a nation that doesn't recognize me, exclusively, as the one true God"

...then there could be a potential conflict there.

Who can envision the glorious utopia we’ll have when the Church runs the government!?
Just think of the Bible Camps!