Finite Population of Heaven

[Acidtongue]

A question that puzzles me, particularly how it is approached by fundamentalists and those who take the literal interpretation of the bible.

Examples from the scripture would be appreciated, as well as your interpretation of them.

Revelation tells us that a total of 144,000 people will be welcomed into Heaven, and that number is made up of 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Jews yes?

It also tells us that they must never have known the touch of a woman, which would seem to suggest that they could not in fact BE a woman?

So is it not extremely likely that heaven already has it's fill of 144,000 male jewish virgins? And that Christains currently living are pretty much garaunteed to meet the No Vacancies sign it the big golden gates?

 

[dvd_holc]

A question that puzzles me, particularly how it is approached by fundamentalists and those who take the literal interpretation of the bible.

Examples from the scripture would be appreciated, as well as your interpretation of them.

Revelation tells us that a total of 144,000 people will be welcomed into Heaven, and that number is made up of 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Jews yes?

It also tells us that they must never have known the touch of a woman, which would seem to suggest that they could not in fact BE a woman?

So is it not extremely likely that heaven already has it's fill of 144,000 male jewish virgins? And that Christains currently living are pretty much garaunteed to meet the No Vacancies sign it the big golden gates?

I am a man who takes the bible 100% true. I have studied symbols and history of appointed days with the observances. Revelations completely about the fall festivals.

First, right after the sealing of the 144,000 is:

9

After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10And they cried out in a loud voice:

You see now if you read a little bit more...there is a lot more than 144,000. It was written in earlier chapter that the redeemed will be given the white robe. And the palm branch waving were people who called out to God for salvation. Also, on the day of atonement the whole tribes of Israel are sealed.​

Now, the 144,000 symbolic of the completion of the tribes of Israel. Scripture says those who cling to the covenant of God has received the adoption as sons and be grafted into Israel. Israel is known as God's first born son, but Israel is also known to be the bride of God through the covenant at Mount Sinai. Israel broke the wedding contract (covenant) and it was Jesus who renewed the covenant with Israel. We are marrying the Lamb. It is in chapter 12 that talks about being virgins. Jesus spoke of Himself in the gospels in term of wedding langauge..."bridegroom" and one of His parables talks about taking 5 virgins. ​

Oh yeah...if you look up other stories of defiling themselves with women you will get the seduction of men to foreign gods...
​

 

[Acidtongue]

I am a man who takes the bible 100% true. I have studied symbols and history of appointed days with the observances. Revelations completely about the fall festivals.

First, right after the sealing of the 144,000 is:

9

After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10And they cried out in a loud voice:

You see now if you read a little bit more...there is a lot more than 144,000. It was written in earlier chapter that the redeemed will be given the white robe. And the palm branch waving were people who called out to God for salvation. Also, on the day of atonement the whole tribes of Israel are sealed.​

Now, the 144,000 symbolic of the completion of the tribes of Israel. Scripture says those who cling to the covenant of God has received the adoption as sons and be grafted into Israel. Israel is known as God's first born son, but Israel is also known to be the bride of God through the covenant at Mount Sinai. Israel broke the wedding contract (covenant) and it was Jesus who renewed the covenant with Israel. We are marrying the Lamb. It is in chapter 12 that talks about being virgins. Jesus spoke of Himself in the gospels in term of wedding langauge..."bridegroom" and one of His parables talks about taking 5 virgins. ​

Oh yeah...if you look up other stories of defiling themselves with women you will get the seduction of men to foreign gods...
​

In laymens terms please.

 

[micbmac]

Hi. This is something I have studied a little bit. Most of the info that I am about to give you I got from a great preacher and author named Doug Batchelor. I will try to keep this short and simple, but you chose a really in depth subject.

The 144,000 is not the total number of people who are going to heaven. The scripture explains this 144,000 is comprised of exactly 12,000 fr ea. of the 12 tribes.

Now 10 of the 12 tribes of Israel gave themselves up to idolatry, were carried away by the Assyrians (722 BC) and were all but scattered even before the time of the New Testament. Those of that 10 tribes that were left eventually became known as the infamous Samaritans who were detested by the Jews because they were not pure blooded.

By the time of Jesus there were only 3 tribes left. So the "12 tribes" are not literal Jews. They can't be. In fact, most of the prophecies speaking of Israel are focused on Spiritual Israel (Children of faith) and not Literal Israel (bloodline Jews). "For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; but he is a jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit" Romans 2:28,29. "And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise" Galations 3:29.

At the time of Jesus' 1st coming he chose 12 men to reach Israel. And at the time of His 2nd coming He will choose 12 times 12,000 who will be moved by the Holy Spirit to reach a great multitude around the world. This great multitude will be converted under the influence and preaching of this chosen 144,000. Keep in mind the 144,000 are the spiritual leaders and not the only ones preaching.

So, just as Jesus blessed and trained the 12 apostles to go out and preach the word @ his 1st coming, so He will choose and bless 12 times 12,000 to lead His church in reaching the whole world for his second coming. Not everyone will agree with this, but of every explanation I have ever been given, this made the most sense to me. Of course I have simplified this a lot there is so much more detail I could go into, and if you want more details just put Doug Batchelor and 144,000 into your search engine and you will pull up a better more in depth explanation than I gave. Anyway, hope this could be of a little help.

 

[childofGod31]

As we know, nobody knows which one of us has explained Revelation correctly (if any).

I don't know if 144000 is symbolic or literal. But I do believe that 144000 specifically refers to the nation of Israel (Romans 11 mentions that the remnant will be saved, so perhaps this is the remnant that will be saved during tribulation) Also, the Bible specifically states that Jews were rejected, and Gentiles were included in Salvation for a time. Then a time of Gentiles will come to an end, and the time of the nation of Israel will start again. (I am talking about Jews who are still holding to Judaism, not individual Jews who are becoming Christians).

Also, there are other multitudes mentioned in Revelation, BESIDES the 144000. And it says that those came from different peoples and nations.

 

[ebia]

A question that puzzles me, particularly how it is approached by fundamentalists and those who take the literal interpretation of the bible.

Examples from the scripture would be appreciated, as well as your interpretation of them.

Revelation tells us that a total of 144,000 people will be welcomed into Heaven, and that number is made up of 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Jews yes?

It also tells us that they must never have known the touch of a woman, which would seem to suggest that they could not in fact BE a woman?

So is it not extremely likely that heaven already has it's fill of 144,000 male jewish virgins? And that Christains currently living are pretty much garaunteed to meet the No Vacancies sign it the big golden gates?

Revelation is apocalypic literature. It certainly isn't to be taken literally.

 

[dvd_holc]

In laymens terms please.

Ok, there are 7 festivals that God ordained for the redemption of the world. The first 4 are spring festivals and the last 3 are fall. Jesus fulfilled the spring festivals during His first coming, and Revelations depicts the fulfillment of the final 3 festivals.

The Jewish viewpoints expressed in the bible believe that numbers are not primary quantity but symbols. Now, I want you to understand the purpose of symbols. Symbols invest greater theological understanding through concrete pictures. This 144,000 is a symbol for great number of the family who did not fall to idolatry but cling to God for salvation.

We can look at the restored temple in Ezekiel 48. In Ezekiel 48, each of the tribes has become gates to the restored Temple. The symbolic number 12,000 is the completion of the worship community of that tribe. The 12 12,000 have become the one family of Israel and temple of God.

You might have heard that Christians are Temples for the Holy Spirit. This number with its meaning and placement is the talking about the restored temple of God that dwells in all of us. I can talk more about this…

 

[plmarquette]

The passage noting 12,000 are called to evangelize the nation of Israel ... 144,000 preachers ... sealed ( anointed , called , gifted see Romans 10.14-17 ; Ephesians 4.11-12 ; 1 Corinthinas 12.28-30 )
it has absolutely nothing at all to do with the total number of people that are in heaven

That has been propogated by the 7th day adventists and Jehovah's witnesses , which is false doctrine ..

They also speak of saved families ... but the verses ( out of the mouth of 2-3 witnesses , alone will your doctrine be established ) says virgin males of each of the 12 tribes of Israel ...

therefore if you are a married man , you are ineligible , if you are female , ditto , if you are not a jew , ditto ...

the scripture cannot be broken , one verse cannot contradict another ... Jesus said who so ever calls upon the name of the Lord , confesses Christ Jesus , can be saved ( Romans 10.8-10 ) ...

clear things up ?

 

[BigNorsk]

In laymens terms please.

You read it wrong. (Assuming of course you read it and didn't just take it from some other mistaken person).

The 144,000 is but one group of people in heaven. Likely not even that group is a literal number since it is in apocalyptic literature.

But anyway there are many others. For instance the people beheaded are not in the 144,000 and so on.

So, there's this group from Israel of virgins that is referred to as the 144,000, it does not include everyone in heaven.

Is that clear?

Marv

 

[Jon0388g]

The passage noting 12,000 are called to evangelize the nation of Israel ... 144,000 preachers ... sealed ( anointed , called , gifted see Romans 10.14-17 ; Ephesians 4.11-12 ; 1 Corinthinas 12.28-30 )
it has absolutely nothing at all to do with the total number of people that are in heaven

That has been propogated by the 7th day adventists

Erm, no this is not propogated by the Adventist church.

Jon

 

[GodsBelovedAngel]

Hi. This is something I have studied a little bit. Most of the info that I am about to give you I got from a great preacher and author named Doug Batchelor. I will try to keep this short and simple, but you chose a really in depth subject.

The 144,000 is not the total number of people who are going to heaven. The scripture explains this 144,000 is comprised of exactly 12,000 fr ea. of the 12 tribes.

Now 10 of the 12 tribes of Israel gave themselves up to idolatry, were carried away by the Assyrians (722 BC) and were all but scattered even before the time of the New Testament. Those of that 10 tribes that were left eventually became known as the infamous Samaritans who were detested by the Jews because they were not pure blooded.

By the time of Jesus there were only 3 tribes left. So the "12 tribes" are not literal Jews. They can't be. In fact, most of the prophecies speaking of Israel are focused on Spiritual Israel (Children of faith) and not Literal Israel (bloodline Jews). "For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; but he is a jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit" Romans 2:28,29. "And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise" Galations 3:29.

At the time of Jesus' 1st coming he chose 12 men to reach Israel. And at the time of His 2nd coming He will choose 12 times 12,000 who will be moved by the Holy Spirit to reach a great multitude around the world. This great multitude will be converted under the influence and preaching of this chosen 144,000. Keep in mind the 144,000 are the spiritual leaders and not the only ones preaching.

So, just as Jesus blessed and trained the 12 apostles to go out and preach the word @ his 1st coming, so He will choose and bless 12 times 12,000 to lead His church in reaching the whole world for his second coming. Not everyone will agree with this, but of every explanation I have ever been given, this made the most sense to me. Of course I have simplified this a lot there is so much more detail I could go into, and if you want more details just put Doug Batchelor and 144,000 into your search engine and you will pull up a better more in depth explanation than I gave. Anyway, hope this could be of a little help.

i think MICBMIAC said it best....and i learned something new

 

[Adstar]

A question that puzzles me, particularly how it is approached by fundamentalists and those who take the literal interpretation of the bible.

Examples from the scripture would be appreciated, as well as your interpretation of them.

Revelation tells us that a total of 144,000 people will be welcomed into Heaven, and that number is made up of 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Jews yes?

Well i have read my bible and it says nothing about the 144,000 being in heaven and it also says nothing about them being the only ones allowed in heaven. I can only summise that you gained this information from an interpretation of the Bible rather than from what the actual bibles says.

Revelation 14

The 144,000
1 Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father's name written on their foreheads.

Ummm so they will be standing on Mount Zion ok no heaven there...

Ok you say that only an exclusive 144,000 will go to heaven, oddly enough the same book of Revealtions right after the mentioning of the 12,000 from each tribe it states.

Revelation 7
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”


Well well well, your exclusivily interpretation is looking kind of shakey at the moment isn't it?

Oh the Lamb of God is the Messiah Jesus if you didn't know.

But wait. theres more.... Just a little further down in the same chapter of the book of Revelation John gets it even more clearly so that we can be even more sure of just who the countless multitude are.

Revelation 7
13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”
14 And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”
So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. 16 They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; 17 for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”

It doesn't sound like these people are getting the no-vacancies sign shoved in their faces does it???? No quite the contrary in fact.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[cutie76]

I was taught the 144,000, which are 12,000 from the 12 tribes, will be the Jews who convert to Christianity after the Rapture.

The Rapture happens before the Tribulation and takes up all of the Christians to Heaven.

 

[Adstar]

I believe they will be exactly what the bible states they are. 144,000 innocents preserved through the Day of the Lord (The time of the Messiah's return) these people are talked about in OT prophecy as the remnant that will be preserved.

Joel 2:32
And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the LORD Shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be deliverance, As the LORD has said, Among the remnant whom the LORD calls.


And again. this whole chapter of the prophet Zechariah tells of the Day of The Messiah's return and the saving of the Remnant.

Zechariah 14
The Coming Day of the LORD
1 Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
2For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.


3Then the LORD will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
4And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.

5Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.


Thus the LORD my God will come,
And all the saints with You.


6It shall come to pass in that day
That there will be no light;
The lights will diminish.
7It shall be one day
Which is known to the LORD--
Neither day nor night.
But at evening time it shall happen
That it will be light.

Note the end of the Prophecy where it talks of the light being diminished. This also corresponds with descriptions in the book of Revelation of the Sun being darkened during the time of the Messiah's return.

Revelation 6:12
I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood.

which links back to the book of Joel's description of what would be happening around the time of the Day of the Lord.

Joel 2:31
The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD.

LOL We could spend more time bouncing happily between OT and NT Its great fun. I may as well leave the last Word to Jesus Himself

Matthew 24
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days