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Finis Dake's view of Foreknowledge and Omniscience

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Theophilus7

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Hi,

victoryword said:
However, have you read Ken Blue's book on healing?
Yes.

What do you think of his chapter on "Divine Determinism"?
At first, I felt he'd gone rather too far... However, after reading C.S. Lewis book, "The Problem of Pain" and turning once again to Ken Blue's chapter on Divine Determinism, I read it more carefully and felt more favourably disposed towards it. It is evident that Blue read Lewis, although Lewis was very much an advocate of 'sanctification through sickness'. To put it in Word of Faith lingo, "Lewis didn't have much revelation about healing".

Actually, I have still got a lot of thinking to do about the Sovereignty-free will issue. Ken Blue has certainly helped me, though. What did you think of his chapter on "Faith Formula". AoG seized upon it in their Systematic Theology from a Pentecostal Perspective as one more mallet to knock the Word of Faith movement in the head with, along with McConnell's thesis (which I haven't read).

Theophilus7
 
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LilAngelHeart

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victoryword said:
Now here is Dake's view of OMNISCIENCE:

Dake's theology is similar to what is today called "Open View theology" or "Open Theism."

Do you think that Dake's view is consistent with Scripture? If you say no, then can you show us how he may be using Scripture incorrectly?

I am especially interested in what Word-Faith advocates think since Dake is highly respected in our circles.


I don't agree with what Dake said about God's Omniscience, the Bible says God is everywhere all the time and He knows the hearts of men, plus God dwells in our hearts. God uses messengers to perform things for God on our behalf, or to keep us encouraged, but He doesn't need His army to tell Him what we are doing. And God does know everything before hand, that's why He had already made arrangements for Jesus to die on the cross before the foundation of the world. There are so many scriptures which mention how God knew someone before they were born or even concieved or before their parents were concieved. Especially Psalm 139 which talks about how God knows everything there is to know about each of us, even the number of hairs on our head and his thoughts towards us outnumber the grains of sand, no way He could know that much about everyone by just using messenger. God is all knowing, He is the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

What Dake is doing is giving God the mind of a human with limited knowlege and needing armies to reorpt to Him what's going on, but God is all powerful, He not onl.ly knows what we are doing, he knows what we will do before we even think it. How could He know that if He had to rely on helpers to tell Him? :)

 
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LilAngelHeart

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enoch son said:
I do not see the word stripes in that ver. Isa. 53-4 can be taken as infirmities and sorrows. Both of these can be mental illness and sickness of conscience, a spiritual fallen state. Don't get me wrong He took are body sickness too. But in the writting of Paul, Peter, and James sickness or affiction was used on the brothern and in one case a follower worker with Paul died of sickness or was left because of sickness. Timothy had his problem too. I do not believe divine health of are present body is a right. But I'm open, because Jesus is the teacher.




A lot of spiritual opression has illness wrapped up in it too, so someone that's opressed or burdened with many unclean spirits will have illnesses too. Being sick spiritually usually also means being sick physically. Someone opressed with worry will eventually develope high blood pressure, and other health problems, someone opressed with depression or self hatred, will not care for themselves properly and end up ill, plus sometimes the depression itself is a illness. So when Jesus delivered people and healed them, He always delivered them first then healed them. Why heal someone's high blood and not deliver them from worry? The deliverence has to come first or else they will just worry themselves sick again.
 
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victoryword

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Theophilus7 said:
Hi,


Yes.


At first, I felt he'd gone rather too far... However, after reading C.S. Lewis book, "The Problem of Pain" and turning once again to Ken Blue's chapter on Divine Determinism, I read it more carefully and felt more favourably disposed towards it. It is evident that Blue read Lewis, although Lewis was very much an advocate of 'sanctification through sickness'. To put it in Word of Faith lingo, "Lewis didn't have much revelation about healing".

Actually, I have still got a lot of thinking to do about the Sovereignty-free will issue. Ken Blue has certainly helped me, though. What did you think of his chapter on "Faith Formula". AoG seized upon it in their Systematic Theology from a Pentecostal Perspective as one more mallet to knock the Word of Faith movement in the head with, along with McConnell's thesis (which I haven't read).

Theophilus7
Theophilus7

Don't get me started on the AoG. Let's just say that it is very hypocritical of them to keep selling books by Lillian B. Yeomans, Mrs. C. Nuzum, and Smith Wigglesworth, and still hold to their "official statements" concerning Word-Faith theology. The AoG has been trying to present themselves as "Evangelical" since the 50s when they took a stand against the Charismatic Movement and even kicked out a couple of their ministers who was supporting it. Yet, they want to, at the same time, hold to certain classic Pentecostal views. They are like a man fighting against himself.

The other funny thing is that they have ordained ministers in the AoG who are unashamedly WoF. I get e-mails from some of them about the blessing that my webpage has been to them.

I thought that Blue's "Faith Formula" chapter STUNK big time, as well as his other little "pot-shots" aimed at the Faith Movement. I often thought about writing a response to it. The possibility is still there. But I did like the "Divine Determinism" chapter.

However, one critic of the healing teachings at Fuller named Matthew Ropp, notes this about Blue's own hypocrisy:

Blue devotes a whole chapter in his first section to showing the inadequacies of this "faith formula" theology (41-51). He rejects it and he goes on to make many statements in agreement with Anderson’s views regarding the eschatological nature of our healing (you have to be influenced by your mentor after all!). At then end of his work, however, Blue appears to me to come back to a "faith formula" theology in a different form, even though here he is explicitly denying that charge (159). "Only if we obey will we exercise authority." Granted. He then acknowledges the mystery that will always remain in what God does and why and that until the eschaton "all our ministry is partial." His last point is that "our obedience is never perfect." Is he putting this back in a causal relationship for the lack of authority in healing?
You can read it for yourself at this link:

http://www.theropps.com/papers/Winter1998/HealingInTheAtonement.htm

Personally, I think Blue is compromising the Word with his belief that "the ultimate healing is in heaven." This is nothing more than a nice way of saying, "It is not always God's will to heal you." In my personal assessment, it takes away the recipients faith to fight for their healing. Most of all, there is no basis in the Word for Blue's teachings.

But again, I did like the chapter on Divine Determinism. :D
 
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victoryword

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LilAngelHeart said:
I don't agree with what Dake said about God's Omniscience, the Bible says God is everywhere all the time and He knows the hearts of men, plus God dwells in our hearts. God uses messengers to perform things for God on our behalf, or to keep us encouraged, but He doesn't need His army to tell Him what we are doing. And God does know everything before hand, that's why He had already made arrangements for Jesus to die on the cross before the foundation of the world. There are so many scriptures which mention how God knew someone before they were born or even concieved or before their parents were concieved. Especially Psalm 139 which talks about how God knows everything there is to know about each of us, even the number of hairs on our head and his thoughts towards us outnumber the grains of sand, no way He could know that much about everyone by just using messenger. God is all knowing, He is the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

What Dake is doing is giving God the mind of a human with limited knowlege and needing armies to reorpt to Him what's going on, but God is all powerful, He not onl.ly knows what we are doing, he knows what we will do before we even think it. How could He know that if He had to rely on helpers to tell Him? :)

I disagree. Dake is giving a literal interpretation of Scripture. You have cited a Scripture or two in reference to your point but Dake has cited several. So far you have told me what you believe the Bible says about God and angels but you have failed to show us how Dake may be interpreting the passages incorrectly.

Also, I have already discussed earlier how I feel about people consigning passages of Scripture to the realm of metaphors and anthropomorphism when said Scripture conflicts with their own viewpoint about God.

Finally, you say that Dake is giving God the mind of a human. I beg to differ here as well. It could be that what Dake is doing is showing how man is so similar to God but with limits. After all, we were created in God's image and likeness (Gen. 1:26-27), so wouldn't there be more SIMILARITIES between God and man rather than the amount of DIFFERENCES that Christian often want to make in their valiant attempt to defend God's majesty?
 
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servant4ever

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LilAngelHeart,

I see you don't agree with what He says. I am an Open Theist, and how that is explained is that God technically knows all of us, since every choice we make is a possibility, so He knows all the different possibilities we can choose. I have a question for you. Could you look at 2 Kings 20. The first verse is where Isaiah the prophet is speaking for God, saying that Hezekiah will for surely die. Then Hezekiah gets all upset and he prays to God, and you know what, God decides to add 15 years to his life. How does that make sense? It is clear that God changed His mind? How can He change His mind if He already knows everything that will happen? You could say God knew what He was going to say before He told Hezekiah he was going to die. But, that would mean God lied, and Hebrews 6:18 and Titus 1:2 says that it is impossible for God to lie. If God told Hezekiah that he going to die knowing that He would add 15 years to his life, that is a lie. He had to change his mind. Even Jesus prayed that God the Father would change His mind. Matthew 26:39 says "Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, 'My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will'(NIV, emphasis added)." Jesus, being God Himself, asked the Father to change His mind. Why would God the Son ask God the Father to change His mind if the Son knew that the Father wouldn't change His mind. It would be useless.

I hope this is clear enough,

servant4ever
 
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Theophilus7

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victoryword said:
Don't get me started on the AoG. Let's just say that it is very hypocritical of them to keep selling books by Lillian B. Yeomans, Mrs. C. Nuzum, and Smith Wigglesworth, and still hold to their "official statements" concerning Word-Faith theology.
I haven't read their official statement, but I expect it's nasty, from what I have read so far. (You could PM it to me?)

The AoG has been trying to present themselves as "Evangelical" since the 50s when they took a stand against the Charismatic Movement and even kicked out a couple of their ministers who was supporting it. Yet, they want to, at the same time, hold to certain classic Pentecostal views. They are like a man fighting against himself.
I have been reading their Systematic Theology recently and I have certainly picked up the impression that they are trying very hard to be 'evangelical'. It is rather beastly of me to say this, perhaps, but one can't help feeling they've got something to prove and are rather too keen to put up a certain image. Anyhow, I don't like some of the comments about WoF that I have witnessed so far in this volume. They slam Kenneth Copeland and Kenneth Hagin as cult leaders in the main text of one of their chapters and generally put up what seems to me a straw-man picture of the people and theology they are so anxious not to be associated with. But perhaps I have been unkind here. One man's sin does not justify another's.

Apart from what I have read in their theology, however, I don't know much about AoG. Theologically they seem to be pretty close to me in just about every category, but then I picked up a fair bit from Hagin/Copeland during my teens and the roots are more or less the same, I think. I'm still in the process of evaluating what I learnt from WoF, actually. Derek Vreeland pretty much expressed my feelings in his essay, Reconstructing Word of Faith Theology.

I thought that Blue's "Faith Formula" chapter STUNK big time, as well as his other little "pot-shots" aimed at the Faith Movement. I often thought about writing a response to it. The possibility is still there. But I did like the "Divine Determinism" chapter.
It was notably deficient in scripture and exegesis. Nevertheless, I felt he made some good points, even if I didn't quite like his superior manner.

Most of all, there is no basis in the Word for Blue's teachings.
This is another area we could discuss. Ah, what a pitty you don't live nearby, victoryword. :( We could have many interesting conversations, I think. :)

Till later,

Theophilus7
 
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victoryword

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Hey Theophilus7

Don't have much time right now so I will have to give you a more lengthy response later. Nonetheless, I am also enjoying our discussion and wished that we lived nearby.

Derek Vreeland is a friend of mine and an occasional sparring partner. He definitely takes the Vineyard view of things while claiming to be sympathetic to Word-Faith (HA!). He has written a rebuttal against one of my articles. You remember when I told you earlier that "all things would be revealed in time?"

Here is one of them. It was Derek's rebuttal against my "God-Kind of Faith" that led me on a journey, which (thanks to Joe McIntyre) led me to look at OV. Nuff said on that right now. I gotta get outta here. Talk at you later.
 
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victoryword

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Theophilus7

Here is a link to the official position that the AoG has taken on "positive confession."

http://www.ag.org/top/beliefs/position_papers/4183_confession.cfm

As far as the AoG, personally I prefer the old literature from Wigglesworth, Yeomans, Nuzum, and Brumback. Many of the newer writings that have come out of there has been a little disappointing. Bought a book by William and Robert Menzies last year titled "Spirit and Power: Foundations of Penetcostal Experience". I was honestly disppointed. It seems that they are contrasting some of their beliefs with Third Wave theology and others. One statement in the books that caught me was how theyseemed to belittle the apologetics done by earlier AoG scholars (And I supsect that they were referring to Carl Brumback).

On a more positive note, they do have a decent book I bought titled Power Encounter: A Pentecostal Perspective which is edited by Opal Redding. This book has articles refuting much of the overemphasis among some Third Wave spiritual warfare advocates. I certainly do not agree with some of their writings (for example, they do not seem to believe that binding and loosing has anything to do with our spiritual authority in Christ and they dispute that we have "power of attorney" to use the name of Jesus.

Finally, I am a little surprised by what you told me concerning their acceptance of Dan McConnell's thesis. Joe McIntyre and Geir Lie have refuted McConnell's claims. See McIntyre's book, E. W. Kenyon: The True Story. Geir Lie has his rebuttal of McConnellism on the WWW. Lie is a friend of mine but he is no Word-Faither.

Even critics of the faith movement such as Dale Simmons, Bruce Barron, and Robert Bowman dispute McConnell. Bowman says that McConnell's research was "faulty" and shows that Kenyon was more evangelical in his beliefs than McConnell claims, though Bowman goes on to blast Kenyon for some of what Bowman claims to be "aberrations." Ah well, with all the heat we WoFers have taken, we'll take what little simpathy we can get (HA!)
 
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Theophilus7

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victoryword said:
Finally, I am a little surprised by what you told me concerning their acceptance of Dan McConnell's thesis.
His book is frequently footnoted. The biggest assault is in their chapter on Divine Healing, which exhibits an almost sycophantic attachment to 'every word which proceeds from the pen of McConnell'. Note that only once do they refer in their footnotes to a Word of Faith book,

Assemblies Of God: Systematic Theology said:
Another hindrance to biblical teaching is what Blue calls the faith formula that focuses not on the divine power and desire to heal but on human faith and confession. He points out that "can-do American optimisim has fused with Christian fundamentalism to spawn a triumphalistic theological hybrid, both attractive and dangerous" [footnote:Ken Blue, Authority to Heal (Downers Grove, Ill: Intervarsity Press, 1987), p41] It defines faith as if it were a technique by which one may manipulate the power of God. It promotes the sovereignty of human beings, rather than the sovereignty of God. The issue that runs the faith formula's ship aground is the absolute connection they claim to establish between faith as a cause and healing as an effect. Such a causal relationship between the two leaves little (if any) room for what might be called mitigating circumstances, such as God's timing or chastisement. We deplore such reductionism [footnote: There have been a number of books in the last few years, such as Gordon Fee, The Disease of the Health and Wealth Gospels (Beverly, Mass.: Frontline Publishing, 1985); and D.R. McConnell, A Different Gospel: A Historical and Biblical Analysis of the Modern Faith Movement (Peabody, Mass.: Hendrikson Publishers, 1988), that deal in detail with the errors of this so-called faith movement).]

There are a number of problems with this movement's understanding of divine healing: first, the cultic nature of these proponents' doctrine of the Atonement, the so-called "born-again" Jesus theory in which the devil is atoned and Jesus gains victory through His Gnostic-like knowledge. The Scriptures teach that Christ's sufferings and death provide atonement for sins and deliverance for sickness. In contrast to this orthodox Christian position, the faith movement, as represented by Kenneth Hagin and Kenneth Copeland, teach that "diseases are healed by Christ's spiritual atonement in hell, not by his physical death on the cross" [footnote: McConnell, A Different Gospel, 150]. This is in clear violation of scripture.

A second problem with their view of healing is the contribution made by New Thought and other metaphysical cults to their view of the nature of human beings [footnote: The views of E.W. Kenyon, Kenneth E. Hagin and Kenneth Copeland are basically "New Thought" with its denial of the reality of the physical world. They deny that disease has any "physical or organic causes," rather everything is defined in spiritual terms.]

A third problem is that they teach that a sick believer is a reproach. E.W. Kenyon writes that "it is wrong for us to have sickness and disease" [footnote: Essek W. Kenyon, Jesus the Healer 19th ed. (Seattle: Kenyon Gospel Publishing Society)]. The difference between this position and the biblical position is clear. The Bible attaches no moral qualifications to either sickness or health. Being physically healthy or sick may have little to do with our faith or spirituality. The believer, according to the proponents of the faith movement, is made completely responsible for personal illness. The inscrutable will of God or the mere consequences of living in a fallen world may play absolutely no part.

A fourth problem is the practice of positive confession itself. It is a denial of obvious realities under the guise of exercising one's faith. It has more in common with Christian Science than with biblical faith. This error is related to another one that D.R. McConnell identifies as "denying the symptoms". Nowhere in Scripture are we encouraged to deny symptoms. This view is bolstered by a New Thought philosophy that denies the reality of the physical world. Other errors espoused by the faith movement include the necessity of enduring pain, outgrowing the need for medical science, the conviction that believers should never die of disease, and that believers should never die before they are seventy years old [footnote: McConnell, A Different Gospel, 149-50].

The faith movement teaches that believers can be totally delivered from bodily suffering in this life. This is in contradiction to the teachings of Scripture. In Romans 8 Paul refers to the sufferings of this life that will not be removed completely until the future redemption of our bodies when we are changed and become like the risen Christ (Rom. 8:18-25; see also 1Cor. 15:42; 1John 1:2). McConnell is absolutely right when he says, "The error of the Faith theology is that is ascribes power to faith healing that will only be manifest at the end of the age" [footnote: Ibid., 160].

Can sin make us physically sick? Yes, but it does not follow that if we are not healed the problem is necessarily a lack of faith. We whole-heartedly agree with McConnell when he writes, "We must neither deny healing, nor simplify it into 'steps' or 'principles' or 'formulas' to which God must respond" [footnote: Ibid., 159].
Now I think most of the points made here touch on something in Word of Faith theology which has been or is out of balance, but I think you would agree with me (and probably go a lot further yet!) in condeming this representation of the faith movement as somewhat distorted, to put it mildly.
 
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LilAngelHeart

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QUOTE=servant4ever--LilAngelHeart,

I see you don't agree with what He says. I am an Open Theist, and how that is explained is that God technically knows all of us, since every choice we make is a possibility, so He knows all the different possibilities we can choose. I have a question for you. Could you look at 2 Kings 20. The first verse is where Isaiah the prophet is speaking for God, saying that Hezekiah will for surely die. Then Hezekiah gets all upset and he prays to God, and you know what, God decides to add 15 years to his life. How does that make sense? It is clear that God changed His mind? How can He change His mind if He already knows everything that will happen?

Okay, I have read it, what that passage means is that God didn't lie or change his mind. He said that Hezekiah would surely die and not recover, God just added more years to his life. Is Hezekia still alive today? Was he cured? No, his illness just went into remission for 15 years. God added the years because of Hezekiah's prayer and faith, but he was never cured. God just gave Him more time. God healed him enough to live 15 more years. People's illness goes into remission lots of times, but they may never get completely cured from it and they will eventually die from the illness.



You could say God knew what He was going to say before He told Hezekiah he was going to die. But, that would mean God lied, and Hebrews 6:18 and Titus 1:2 says that it is impossible for God to lie. If God told Hezekiah that he going to die knowing that He would add 15 years to his life, that is a lie. He had to change his mind.

It wasn't a lie, Hezekiah did die, God just healed him enough to live 15 more years, healed him by putting the illness in remission, he never completely recovered.



Even Jesus prayed that God the Father would change His mind. Matthew 26:39 says "Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, 'My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will'(NIV, emphasis added)." Jesus, being God Himself, asked the Father to change His mind. Why would God the Son ask God the Father to change His mind if the Son knew that the Father wouldn't change His mind. It would be useless.

I hope this is clear enough,

servant4ever


He wasn't asking God to change His mind, His prayer was out of his deep sorrow and emotions and he was just saying in prayer that if there were any other way he would prefer that he not have to go through that, that's why he then said but not my will, Your will be done. He didn't say "Lord please change your mind. "

The Bible says that God is the same yesterday, today and forever and that He never changes.
 
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LilAngelHeart said:
God just healed him enough to live 15 more years, healed him by putting the illness in remission, he never completely recovered.

I don't see that anywhere, could you provide a reference to back this statement? :confused:

Otherwise, I will be forced to discount your arguement for lack of a biblical foundation.
 
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Anthony

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I will heal you. On the third day from now you will go up to the temple of the LORD. I will add fifteen years to your life. And I will deliver you and this city from the hand of the king of Assyria.

He healed him that was completed; and simply postpone his judgement for 15 years.
 
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Theophilus7

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Hi victoryword,

victoryword said:
Don't have much time right now so I will have to give you a more lengthy response later. Nonetheless, I am also enjoying our discussion and wished that we lived nearby.
:sigh: Ah well.

Derek Vreeland is a friend of mine and an occasional sparring partner.
Does he participate in any online forums?

He definitely takes the Vineyard view of things while claiming to be sympathetic to Word-Faith (HA!).
As far as I can see, the main thing he likes about WoF is the "prosperity thing", but within moderate containment. I'm not exactly sure what else it is about WoF (which isn't present in, say, the Vineyard or other Pentecostal circles) he likes. Nevertheless, I wish he'd hurry up and get his book out there. I believe he was planning on writing one as a follow up to his essay.

He has written a rebuttal against one of my articles.
Yes, I have read it.

You remember when I told you earlier that "all things would be revealed in time?" Here is one of them. It was Derek's rebuttal against my "God-Kind of Faith" that led me on a journey, which (thanks to Joe McIntyre) led me to look at OV. Nuff said on that right now.
Has McIntyre gone OV too? (I liked his article on healing, by the way - the one you have just put on your website, though it represents a departure from Kenyon's anthropology).

I gotta get outta here. Talk at you later.
Pip pip for the present,

Theophilus7
 
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LilAngelHeart

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Anthony said:
I will heal you. On the third day from now you will go up to the temple of the LORD. I will add fifteen years to your life. And I will deliver you and this city from the hand of the king of Assyria.

He healed him that was completed; and simply postpone his judgement for 15 years.


That equals the same thing as a remission. ;) They didn't have the medical technology back then to describe it as a remission. Adding 15 years does not mean he completely recovered. There are various degrees of healing a person can recieve. God said he will not recover and he will die, he never fully recovered and he did die. God didn't lie and didn't change His mind. :)

These verses talk about complete healing and a cure. Why would the Bible mention complete healing or being thoroughly healed if there were not different degrees of healing?

Acts 3
. 16By faith in the name of Jesus, this man whom you see and know was made strong. It is Jesus' name and the faith that comes through him that has given this complete healing to him, as you can all see.
17"Now, brothers, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did your leaders.

Exodus 19
19 If he rise again, and walk abroad upon his staff, then shall he that smote him be quit: only he shall pay for the loss of his time, and shall cause him to be thoroughly healed.

Hosea 5:13
When Ephraim saw his sickness, and Judah saw his wound, then went Ephraim to the Assyrian, and sent to king Jareb: yet could he not heal you, nor cure you of your wound.

This verse says that he couldn't heal him nor cure him, two different things. :angel:



 
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victoryword

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Theophilus7

Derek occasionally views online forums (that is how we found each other. He was reading some posts of mine on a forum some years ago and e-mailed me), but I doubt if he participates in them, unless he uses a username without my knowledge of who he is. As far as In know, he only does occasional lurking. Derek is finishing his graduate studies while at the same time serving as an associate pastor. I doubt if he has the time. However, he usually takes the time to answer e-mails from those who read his articles.

As far as his leanings, Derek does believe in "positive confession" to a certain extent. I introduced him to an out of print book by Elmer Twons some years ago called "Say-It Faith" (it is online at Town's site in Adobe Acrobat format). Town's is no WoF preacher but is a believer in "saying what it is you need from God." Town's is a close friend of Jerry Falwell. For the most part, I would say that Derek is sympathetic to the movement, but from our many discussions, I have a hard time seeing him as a full fledged WoFer. Especially since Derek embraces some Calvinism.

I probably should not open my big mouth, but let me just say this: McIntyre personally introduced me to the OV. Before him, I knew nothing about it. He sent me some of his own teaching tapes that inspired me to do further research on my own. What does that tell you?

If you read some of the people that Kneyon quotes in "The Father and His Family" you may find one of them that embraced similar concepts in their writings. Ever heard of W. W. Kingsley and his book "Science and Prayer?" I believe that Kenyon quotes him. Kingsley held similar views as the same as OVers hold today.

I liked McIntyre's article too. He is a very nice person. You can tell he has a true pastor's heart. He is also an excellent teacher of the Word.
 
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Theophilus7

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victoryword said:
As far as his leanings, Derek does believe in "positive confession" to a certain extent. I introduced him to an out of print book by Elmer Twons some years ago called "Say-It Faith" (it is online at Town's site in Adobe Acrobat format). Town's is no WoF preacher but is a believer in "saying what it is you need from God." Town's is a close friend of Jerry Falwell.
I shall have a look at Town's book. Thank you.

For the most part, I would say that Derek is sympathetic to the movement, but from our many discussions, I have a hard time seeing him as a full fledged WoFer. Especially since Derek embraces some Calvinism.
Indeed! Do you mean some of the petals from the T.U.L.I.P? If that's what you mean, I'm a little surprised, since it seems whenever you pull out one petal the rest have a habit of coming away in your hand too. But I'm no expert on Calvinism.

I probably should not open my big mouth, but let me just say this: McIntyre personally introduced me to the OV. Before him, I knew nothing about it. He sent me some of his own teaching tapes that inspired me to do further research on my own. What does that tell you?
Ah... ;)

If you read some of the people that Kneyon quotes in "The Father and His Family" you may find one of them that embraced similar concepts in their writings. Ever heard of W. W. Kingsley and his book "Science and Prayer?" I believe that Kenyon quotes him. Kingsley held similar views as the same as OVers hold today.
Interesting.

I liked McIntyre's article too. He is a very nice person. You can tell he has a true pastor's heart. He is also an excellent teacher of the Word.
What a pitty he isn't on TBN. Does he have any aspirations?

Till later.
 
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