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Finis Dake's view of Foreknowledge and Omniscience

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victoryword

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How do some of you feel about Finis Dake's (author of the ever so popular Dake's Annotated Reference Bible) perspective of these issues let me provide you with some quotes from Dake's writings (special thanks to RevKev for providing me the quotes so that I would not have to type them). Here is what he has to say about FOREKNOWLEDGE:

Finis Dake said:
XVI. FOREKNOWLEDGE (Rom. 8:28-30)
The word foreknowledge simply means the prescience of God or the knowing beforehand certain events that will happen. If we are to take the Bible for what it says about God we will have to recognize that God gets to know certain things concerning free moral agents just as they get to know some things about each other. This is plainly stated in Gen. 3:8; 6:6,7; 11:5-8; 18:18-21; 22:12; Ex. 2:24, 25; Psalm 1:6; Jer. 17:10. God knows His plan from the beginning to the end, and certain passages used to teach foreknowledge from all eternity in connection with detailed events in the lives of free wills really refer to His general plan only, not to free moral acts of those particular men, as we have seen under election above (Isa. 42:9; 45:11; 46:9; 48:6; Dan. 2:28, 29; Acts 15:18; Matt. 13:35; 24:36; Rev. 21-22; etc.).
Now here is Dake's view of OMNISCIENCE:

Finis Dake said:
God Is Omniscient
The question of the omniscience of God is also much misunderstood. The Bible makes many simple statements that limit God’s knowledge. There would be no sense to such passages if we do not believe them literally. There is no meaning to them if we take them figuratively. There was no object in God saying such things about Himself if they were untrue. God gets to know things concerning the free moral actions of men as others do (Gen. 6:5-7; 11:5-7; 18:21; 22:12; 2 Chr. 16:9; Zech. 4:10; Job 12:22; 24:23; Ps. 7:9; 44:21; Ps. 139:1-6; Prov. 24:12; Jer. 17:10; Ezek. 11:5; Rom. 8:27; 1 Thess. 2:4). God sends messengers throughout the Earth who report to Him of all that they find in the Earth that goes on (Dan. 10:13-21; 11:1; 12:1; Zech. 1:7-11; 6:1-8; Mt. 18:10-11; Heb. 2:4). God does not take care of every detail of His vast business in all the kingdoms of the universe. His agents help Him and they are found in every part of the universe on missions for God. Certain angels are responsible to God for carrying out His will in almost infinite detail concerning the billions of suns, moons, planets and all free moral agents on them. God does not personally do everything that is done in all acts and events, nor has He known, elected, chosen, or predestinated all the acts and events from all eternity past. Several times God Himself said of certain events that they did not come into His mind (Jer. 19:5; 32:35; 44:21). God did not know beforehand that men would become so wicked (Gen. 6:5-7); that they would plan Babel (Gen. 11:5-7); that Sodom would be so wicked (Gen. 18:21, 26, 28-32); that Abraham would actually proceed to offer up Isaac (Gen. 22:12). God did not know whether it would take one or two or three signs to make Israel believe in Him (Ex. 4:1-12); or whether testing Israel would cause them to obey Him, or not (Dt. 8:2, 16). He did not know that Israel would backslide as far as she did (Dt. 32:19-29; Isa. 59:15-19). Furthermore, He searches to find men whom He can bless (2 Chr. 16:9); He discovers deep things (Job 12:22); tries the hearts and reins of men so that He may know them (Ps. 7:9; 44:21; 139:1-6, 23-24; Jer. 17:10; 1 Chr. 28:9; Rom. 8:27; 1 Cor 2:10; Rev. 2:23), proving all men for the same reason (Ps. 17:3; 66:10; 81:7).

God sends messengers throughout the whole of His vast creations to find out for Him what He wants to know, the same as the head of any other business would be likely to do, so that plans may be made and actions taken accordingly. Examples of such agency constantly reporting to God can be found in Gen. 18:21-22; Dan. 10:13-21; 11:1; 12:1; Zech. 1:7-11; 6:1-8; Mt. 18:10-11; Heb. 1:14; 2:2; Rev. 1:1; 7:1-3; 8:2-13; 9:1; 14:6-20; 15:1-8; 16:1-21; 18:21; 22:6, 8-9, 16).

The 6,468 commands in the Bible regulating man as to his part in the eternal plan of God, and setting forth his responsibility to God and man, the 1,260 promises of curses and blessings, rewards or loss of rewards, the hundreds of warnings, curses, blessings and dealings of God on the basis of conformity to His will, the 1,522 "ifs" and the many hundreds of conditional requirements of God throughout Scripture are sufficient proof that God does not cause all acts and events by His own decrees—and sufficient proof that He changes His own dealings with men, as they conform or refuse to conform to His will. Such facts and many others make it clear that God does not know from all eternity what any one man will do, much less what different types and dispositions of men will do under various circumstances that are not yet present to deal with. We have no statement in the entire Bible saying that God knows or even would like to know all acts and particular events of all vast creations of free moral agents from all eternity past; or that He has fixed decrees choosing and predestinating all the thoughts, acts, and deeds of free wills from all eternity past to all eternity future. God’s eternal plan for man is known from the beginning to the end and what He plans to bring to pass on Earth He has power to do, but concerning the free actions of free moral agents He does not know from all eternity what they will do before they are in existence and are here to have a part in His plan. He does not know which ones will be saved and which ones will be lost. He has made a plan for all to be saved alike and all who conform to His plan are blessed with the predestined blessings. Those who willfully rebel will be cursed with the predestined punishments according to the plan. It is the plan that is known from the beginning to the end, not the individual conformity to it by free moral agents. It is left up to each person to choose His own destiny. God wills all men to be saved but if man does not choose to be saved that is his responsibility (1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Pet. 3:9; Jn. 3:16; Rev. 22:17).
Dake's theology is similar to what is today called "Open View theology" or "Open Theism."

Do you think that Dake's view is consistent with Scripture? If you say no, then can you show us how he may be using Scripture incorrectly?

I am especially interested in what Word-Faith advocates think since Dake is highly respected in our circles.
 
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enoch son

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I stop reading at free will. Show me one thing in the word that comes to you free. If you say salvation, I will say Jesus paid your price, I would not call that free. Also remember God chasen whom He loves and the wages of sin is death. Every thing has a price, nothing is free. For even man know's that for ever action there is a equal reaction. Same hold true in the spiritual. My thoughts.
 
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SavedByGrace3

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I have serious problems with what I have come to call "mere theism" when compared with Christianity.

Mere theism is a faith that is based more on the "omni" factors as taught by theology. These "OMNI" factors are fine until they are used to overrule the gospel, the revelation of God that we have in Jesus, and plain statements we see in scripture.
For example, we often see the "omni" teaching of "super sovereignty". Super sovereignty says that God is so sovereign that He is not even subject to His own promises, His word, or even the gospel of Jesus Christ. This teaching takes the Bilbe teaching of sovereignty and says that God "does not have to heal" all those who believe since "that would be forcing God". This teaching is used to overrule that plain scriptural promises of the gospel and even the work that Jesus did on the cross, because "by His stripes we were healed".
Mere theism basically holds that the promises of the Word (that have already been made "yes and amen") are actually still subject to the immediate and individual will of God for each of us. IOWs, God can still say no to your faith, can still refuse to heal, save, deliever, and otherwise be true to His word. This effectually renders the principle of faith dead!. Faith is useless if we cannot believe that God has done what He said He has done and will do what He said He will do. If there is still the possiblity of a "no", or "maybe", then we have nothing to base our faith on. Faith requires that we believe that "we have received" when we pray, and this is impossible if God can regen on His word based on the "OMNI" teaching of "super sovereignty"
The "OMNI" treachings are an attempt to define God the Father and His nature by means other than that which God has revealed Himself. God revealed Himself in the person of Jesus... Jesus is the way God wants us to see and understand the Father, not the "OMNI" principles.

Didy
 
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Theophilus7

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An article I recently wrote and posted in one of the discussions on the "Luther and positive confession thread" probably best expresses my thoughts on this matter. Although it is concentrating specifically on a few verses in general, the same issues are relevant. I shall include it here, if I may:

---

Did God really speak when creating?
Some advice for spotting and handling biblical anthropomorphisms

“In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth”. But did He really do it in an audible voice (Gen. 1:3,6,9,11,14,20,24,26)? It is, when we stop to think about it, impossible to accept the idea that God literally spoke words in the original act of creation. A spoken word requires air in which to speak it and organs with which to produce the sound. Granted, a God who is in control of air molecules could set up the necessary vibrations with a thought, but even God the Almighty cannot produce vibrations in a gaseous medium that doesn't exist yet. That is nonsense.

We may wonder, then, why the Genesis account repeatedly records the creative acts with the words, “God said”, as opposed to “God thought” or some other language that might better befit God’s dignity and true nature. Wouldn’t that have been preferable? Isn’t the choice of words a little crude and irreverent in describing the actions of this transcendent spirit? I believe the answer to both of these questions is “no”. There are good reasons for preferring “God said” to “God thought”, and there are also good reasons for abstaining both from literalisms and criticisms of biblical anthropomorphisms in general.

Firstly, in order to correctly interpret the aforementioned verses in Genesis, we must observe that speech is the revelation of thought. In a human being, breath is released from the lungs and passed through the mouth. The sound of the words is determined by the various things to which the air is subjected before it departs between your lips. Essentially, a man wills to think about something and his breath carries the thought outside of himself and manifests it in the form of sound waves. "Speech is the index of what is thought, willed and done". It is a fitting analogue for God’s work in the beginning. God didn’t merely ponder the act of creation - He willed to think creative thoughts, and those thoughts were indeed, in a sense, carried by God’s breath; the Holy Spirit. God made something outside of Himself. His will was wrought in substance! To record that "God said" is a vastly more appropriate means of recalling each creative act than to say merely, "God thought".

It shouldn't be too surprising that human speech is employed as a useful analogy in Genesis 1, (no more than that, but no less), as long as we maintain our grasp on two important touchstones. Firstly, like the Roman coin in Mark 12:16-21, stamped with the image of Caesar, man has been created in the image and likeness of God. Nevertheless, a coin does not contain the true nature of the person in whose image it was made. This is the second point. That God is both like us (Gen. 1:26) and unlike us is indisputable (Jer. 10:6-7). He amply testifies to both throughout scripture, and frequently has to remind us that He is not as akin to human beings as we often imagine Him to be! (Num. 23:19; Isa. 29:16; Acts 17:24-30)

For the benefit of all mankind, the Bible frequently frames God’s thoughts and actions in human terms. The Infinite describes Himself in language composed out of the stuff of human life, which we can all readily relate to. Because man is in God’s image, there is sufficient God-likeness within him and even in creation in general for the Absolute to draw upon. But if we also hold within our minds the counter-balancing truth, essential to a worshipful and reverential mind, that God is also unlike us, that He is higher than us, that He is, in fact, a transcendent being and not a man (Isa. 55:8-9), we are not at risk of taking the analogue and making an idol out of it. For the good philosopher knows how earth-bound human language is, carved out by experience in the realm of the five physical senses, yet indispensable in describing the realities that exist on higher plains. There is no difficulty in relating a historical account of the appearance of earth and sky, vegetation and animal life in quite literal terms (cf. Gen. 1-2). But what about the higher matters? When we wish to discuss mental things we are obliged to borrow almost all the words we apply from the material world. "Learning enlightens the mind, because it is to the mind what light is to the eye, enabling it to discover things before hidden"[1]. In this way, by appropriating phraseology from a lower sphere, we are able to discuss the metaphysical together. And this holds true for the ways and workings of the divine too, which we perceive as “through a glass, darkly”. But only “let there be in our minds proper notions of God, and the tropical language we must and ought to employ in speaking of divine things will derive no taint of error from its original application to their human analogues”[2]. Our assurance of God’s omnipresence in Psalm 139 forbids us to take literally the image of the earth as a stool for His feet to rest upon (Is. 66:1). Our belief in God’s omniscience (Job. 37:16) prevents us from interpreting God’s “repentance” in Genesis 6:6 as the admission of an error in divine wisdom. And note this assertion: God does not really “whistle” when He wants to send a plague of flies (Is. 7:18) - anymore than He literally speaks words when He creates! The kingdom of heaven is like “a farmer sowing a seed”, or "a merchant looking for fine pearls", but will you really push these similes to the point of absurdity?

How indeed can the Bible tell you and me, simple fellows that we are, anything at all about God and the unfamiliar, without drawing upon the familiar? What other bridge is there over which we may pass to the unknown? To demand that the description precisely conform to the reality of the thing described is to end with nothing higher than our own thoughts and experiences - no God at all, in fact, and no faith.

For this reason, a slavish literalism is inexcusable when the Holy One is in the hotspot of biblical revelation. When the God of the Bible condescends to describe His thoughts and actions to us, stooping into the realm of human language and scooping up the earthly materials of our experiences to compound them into a beautiful mosaic of images that bear “the likeness of the appearance” of different shapes and pattern we have witnessed in creation, let us be careful not to press the language under our feet and trample on the divine nature by thoughts of God that are no higher than our muddy boots.

---

[1] Webster’s dictionary
[2] Albert Barnes’ Commentary
 
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E

enoch son

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Have mercy on me a man of little words, brothern. I would like to say that Isaiah 53 in my humble opinion is not about body healing. I believe that the chruch has missread these vers.. I believe God is talking about spiritual healing in these vers. What good is your body to God if you are spiritually dead. Spirit frist body second (a new one at that). And if that is a blanket fact as being taught by the chruch why did God add 1. in Jesus name you can be healed. 2. by the gifts of healing,faith and miracles. 3. by the prays of a righteousness man 4. By the laying of hands by the elders with oil. Surely just the cross would have done the job.
 
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SavedByGrace3

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Matthew thought it was physical healing also:

Matthew 8:16-17 NASB
16 When evening came, they brought to Him many who were demon-possessed; and He cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were ill.
17 This was to fulfill what was spoken through Isaiah the prophet: "HE HIMSELF TOOK OUR INFIRMITIES AND CARRIED AWAY OUR DISEASES."
 
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enoch son

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I do not see the word stripes in that ver. Isa. 53-4 can be taken as infirmities and sorrows. Both of these can be mental illness and sickness of conscience, a spiritual fallen state. Don't get me wrong He took are body sickness too. But in the writting of Paul, Peter, and James sickness or affiction was used on the brothern and in one case a follower worker with Paul died of sickness or was left because of sickness. Timothy had his problem too. I do not believe divine health of are present body is a right. But I'm open, because Jesus is the teacher.
 
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PatrickM

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didaskalos said:
Matthew thought it was physical healing also:

Matthew 8:16-17 NASB
16 When evening came, they brought to Him many who were demon-possessed; and He cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were ill.
17 This was to fulfill what was spoken through Isaiah the prophet: "HE HIMSELF TOOK OUR INFIRMITIES AND CARRIED AWAY OUR DISEASES."

Perhaps both of you are correct. Indeed, Matt mentions physical healing, however, stops the quote of Isaiah at vs4, not including 5b, "And by His stripes we are healed."

However, Peter understands the meaning of vs 5 when he states in 1Pet2:24, "who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness - by whose stripes (Jesus') you were healed."

I believe his interpretation seems one of healing from results of sin, so we can live in righteousness. IMHO.
 
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PatrickM

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Theophilus7 said:
An article I recently wrote and posted in one of the discussions on the "Luther and positive confession thread" probably best expresses my thoughts on this matter. Although it is concentrating specifically on a few verses in general, the same issues are relevant. I shall include it here, if I may:
---
Did God really speak when creating?
Some advice for spotting and handling biblical anthropomorphisms

“In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth”. But did He really do it in an audible voice (Gen. 1:3,6,9,11,14,20,24,26)? It is, when we stop to think about it, impossible to accept the idea that God literally spoke words in the original act of creation. A spoken word requires air in which to speak it and organs with which to produce the sound. Granted, a God who is in control of air molecules could set up the necessary vibrations with a thought, but even God the Almighty cannot produce vibrations in a gaseous medium that doesn't exist yet. That is nonsense.

We may wonder, then, why the Genesis account repeatedly records the creative acts with the words, “God said”, as opposed to “God thought” or some other language that might better befit God’s dignity and true nature. Wouldn’t that have been preferable? Isn’t the choice of words a little crude and irreverent in describing the actions of this transcendent spirit? I believe the answer to both of these questions is “no”. There are good reasons for preferring “God said” to “God thought”, and there are also good reasons for abstaining both from literalisms and criticisms of biblical anthropomorphisms in general.

Firstly, in order to correctly interpret the aforementioned verses in Genesis, we must observe that speech is the revelation of thought. In a human being, breath is released from the lungs and passed through the mouth. The sound of the words is determined by the various things to which the air is subjected before it departs between your lips. Essentially, a man wills to think about something and his breath carries the thought outside of himself and manifests it in the form of sound waves. "Speech is the index of what is thought, willed and done". It is a fitting analogue for God’s work in the beginning. God didn’t merely ponder the act of creation - He willed to think creative thoughts, and those thoughts were indeed, in a sense, carried by God’s breath; the Holy Spirit. God made something outside of Himself. His will was wrought in substance! To record that "God said" is a vastly more appropriate means of recalling each creative act than to say merely, "God thought".

It shouldn't be too surprising that human speech is employed as a useful analogy in Genesis 1, (no more than that, but no less), as long as we maintain our grasp on two important touchstones. Firstly, like the Roman coin in Mark 12:16-21, stamped with the image of Caesar, man has been created in the image and likeness of God. Nevertheless, a coin does not contain the true nature of the person in whose image it was made. This is the second point. That God is both like us (Gen. 1:26) and unlike us is indisputable (Jer. 10:6-7). He amply testifies to both throughout scripture, and frequently has to remind us that He is not as akin to human beings as we often imagine Him to be! (Num. 23:19; Isa. 29:16; Acts 17:24-30)

For the benefit of all mankind, the Bible frequently frames God’s thoughts and actions in human terms. The Infinite describes Himself in language composed out of the stuff of human life, which we can all readily relate to. Because man is in God’s image, there is sufficient God-likeness within him and even in creation in general for the Absolute to draw upon. But if we also hold within our minds the counter-balancing truth, essential to a worshipful and reverential mind, that God is also unlike us, that He is higher than us, that He is, in fact, a transcendent being and not a man (Isa. 55:8-9), we are not at risk of taking the analogue and making an idol out of it. For the good philosopher knows how earth-bound human language is, carved out by experience in the realm of the five physical senses, yet indispensable in describing the realities that exist on higher plains. There is no difficulty in relating a historical account of the appearance of earth and sky, vegetation and animal life in quite literal terms (cf. Gen. 1-2). But what about the higher matters? When we wish to discuss mental things we are obliged to borrow almost all the words we apply from the material world. "Learning enlightens the mind, because it is to the mind what light is to the eye, enabling it to discover things before hidden"[1]. In this way, by appropriating phraseology from a lower sphere, we are able to discuss the metaphysical together. And this holds true for the ways and workings of the divine too, which we perceive as “through a glass, darkly”. But only “let there be in our minds proper notions of God, and the tropical language we must and ought to employ in speaking of divine things will derive no taint of error from its original application to their human analogues”[2]. Our assurance of God’s omnipresence in Psalm 139 forbids us to take literally the image of the earth as a stool for His feet to rest upon (Is. 66:1). Our belief in God’s omniscience (Job. 37:16) prevents us from interpreting God’s “repentance” in Genesis 6:6 as the admission of an error in divine wisdom. And note this assertion: God does not really “whistle” when He wants to send a plague of flies (Is. 7:18) - anymore than He literally speaks words when He creates! The kingdom of heaven is like “a farmer sowing a seed”, or "a merchant looking for fine pearls", but will you really push these similes to the point of absurdity?

How indeed can the Bible tell you and me, simple fellows that we are, anything at all about God and the unfamiliar, without drawing upon the familiar? What other bridge is there over which we may pass to the unknown? To demand that the description precisely conform to the reality of the thing described is to end with nothing higher than our own thoughts and experiences - no God at all, in fact, and no faith.

For this reason, a slavish literalism is inexcusable when the Holy One is in the hotspot of biblical revelation. When the God of the Bible condescends to describe His thoughts and actions to us, stooping into the realm of human language and scooping up the earthly materials of our experiences to compound them into a beautiful mosaic of images that bear “the likeness of the appearance” of different shapes and pattern we have witnessed in creation, let us be careful not to press the language under our feet and trample on the divine nature by thoughts of God that are no higher than our muddy boots.

---

[1] Webster’s dictionary
[2] Albert Barnes’ Commentary

Indeed, caution is required in regards to “literalism.” However, one must not be too extreme in either direction. Your heading seems to be in regards to antropomorhisms, which, indeed need to be taken in light of God’s revelations to men. An extension to hermeneutics may be to take literally those phrases which logically may be taken literally. Obviously, God does not use the earth as His footstool, as He does not have feet! Nor does He have wings (Ps. 36:7), etc.

Balance must be taken, however, when discounting the use of plain language. Remember, God knows our frame, that we are dust (Ps 103:14), so He must also know how to communicate His truths to us with this limitation in mind. I do believe God means what He says, and says what He means. If we go too far to the extreme of trying to read into everything written, black become white, white becomes black, and everything can mean anything to anyone!

He knows how to ensure we are getting His message clearly.
 
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TheScottsMen

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Hey VW! Love the topic. I'll make sure to comment on it on Sunday night. I like many others have tons of Dakes lit. Got his "Gods Plan for Man" Audio MP3 Recordings this Xmas (I also have the book). Also picked up the Dakes Ref Bible including the Dakes Bible software which includes just about every book he has ever written (Heavenly Host, Times past, etc..) Dakes has alot of doctrines that are contrary to most peoples beliefs. Kenosis of Christ, Doctrine of God and Angels (bodily beings), Trinity (in union, but completely sep people) and tons of other stuff that makes you go urghhhhhhhhhh, hmmmmm, urghhh, hmmmmm. Hehe. He sure does back up his stuff with scripture though doesn't he? His thoughts on a pre-adamite civilization are very interesting to say the least. Anyway's, will respond tomm! Got work in the AM!
 
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look

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Amen!!! I'm with you guys!!!
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Anthony

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TheScottsMen said:
Dakes has alot of doctrines that are contrary to most peoples beliefs. Kenosis of Christ, Doctrine of God and Angels (bodily beings), Trinity (in union, but completely sep people) and tons of other stuff that makes you go urghhhhhhhhhh, hmmmmm, urghhh, hmmmmm. Hehe. He sure does back up his stuff with scripture though doesn't he? His thoughts on a pre-adamite civilization are very interesting to say the least. Anyway's, will respond tomm! Got work in the AM!
Are those valid Christian Doctrines?

also there is Jesus wasn't the Christ until he was baptized, and Jesus gave up his Godly superpowers when he took the form of man on earth, meaning he was no longer God while he walk as a man.
 
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TheScottsMen

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Anthony said:
Are those valid Christian Doctrines?

also there is Jesus wasn't the Christ until he was baptized, and Jesus gave up his Godly superpowers when he took the form of man on earth, meaning he was no longer God while he walk as a man.
AH? I already referred to The doctrine of Jesus giving up his powers when I stated the Kenosis of Christ. So its not an "also" ;) Dakes refers to Jesus being baptized in the spirit when he received his power. But maybe hes wrong, how many miracles did Jesus do before that? Also, Dakes never says he wasn't GOD at anytime. When he was baby he was GOD but also man. Christ is in reference to title.

Are what Valid Doctrines? God having a body? The bible speaks of God having a body over 1000 times in scripture. But wait you say! That means he has WINGS HUH? Well, we were created in Gods image, do we have wings? Nah, I think not, but you never know now adays with all that cloning stuff going on. Thus we take that is being figurative. The Church itself has only in the past 400 years (not including 33 AD to 120 or so)been able to work together on scripture (unless you count all the Catholic meetups). Before that, it was forbidden. As for many of Dakes doctrine they can be found starting way back in 4 BC to 98 AD;)

Does God sit? He must if hes on a throne. Is Jesus at the left hand of God? Nope, the right hand. Plain scripture is sooooo much easier to understand then many of the theologians interruptions. Not to mention scripture is the authority on scripture, not man. Some times we interrupt to much and don't let scripture just say what it has to say. Example would be Mark 11:22-24 - You either believe what it says, or you have to interrupt it to mean something else. I'll believe plain scripture, you interrupt it.

Anyway's, still haven't got a chance to comment on the topic at hand. Hope to get the chance this evening!
 
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victoryword

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Scottsman, I am looking forward to your comments on the initial post though I like what you have said so far. Like you, I am a stickler for the LITERAL interpretation of God's Word EXCEPT where the Bible is clear that what is being stated is a metaphor or anthropomorphism. Even in such cases we should know or find out exactly what the LITERAL meaning of the metaphore and anthropmorphism is. Too often people want to claim that certain refernces to God are simply anthropomorphic but they are often at a loss to tell us what the so called anthropomorphism literally represent or teach.

I was surprised to read a commentary by so called PENTECOSTALS who were supposedly teaching on the meaning of Mark 11:22-24. I was reading it in a book store. I just knew that, they being Pentecostal scholars, would give a scholarly but powerful explanation of it. Imagine how shocked I was to read their "scholalrly" but watered down interpretation. They claimed that the passage was not to be used as a "formula" for prayer but was simply in reference to Israel and was prophetic. Israel was the fig tree bearing no fruit and would soon whither and die. Faith in God would accept this. I thought to myself, "What a load of baloney!" And these were PENTECOSTAL SCHOLARS!!!! Needless to say, I did not purchase said commentary.

Too often we approach Scripture with our biases and preconceived ideas intact, and these things are read into the Scripture vice us allowing the Scripture itself to transform our thinking about God and His ways. Any scripture that does not fit our concepts must be reinterpretted until it does. Even if I don't agree with Dake on all of his doctrines, I seriously doubt that god would slap him on the hand for believing that God meant exactly what He inspired to have recorded in His Word rather than adhering to all of man's scientific methods of Biblical interpretation.
 
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victoryword

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Here is a definition of OMNISCIENCE from the Full Life Study Bible which is a Charismatic/Pentecostal study Bible. The notes were written by the late Pentecostal scholar, Donald C. Stamps:

God is omniscient - i.e., he knows verything (Ps 139:1-6; 147:5). He knows not only our actions but also our very thoughts (1Sa 16:7; 1Ki 8:39; Ps 44:21; Jer 17:9-10). When the Bible speaks of God's foreknowledge (Isa. 42:9; Ac 2:33; 1Pe 1:2), it means that he knows all things possible as possible, all things certain as certain, all things contingent as contingent, all things future as future, all things past as past, all things foreordained as predestined certainties (cf 1Sa 23:10-13; Jer 38:17-20). Biblical foreknowledge does not entail philosophical determinism. God remains free to make decisions and alter purposes in time and history, according to his own will and wisdom. In other words, God is not a prisoner of his own foreknowledge (see Nu 14:11-20; 2Ki 20:1-7 ....) - From page 882

I like this definition (which I think is very close to Dake's as well) because it doesn't put God in a box and it does not close the future to some unchangeable blueprint, except where God has stated certain things must occur. However, my future is open to possibilities. HALLELUJAH!!!!

However, this would not be complete without Stamps definition of God's immutability,

God is unchangeable - i.e., there is no change in God's attributes, in his perfections or in his purpose for humankind (Nu 23:19; Ps 102:26-28; Isa 41:4; Mal 3:6; Heb 1:11-12; Jas 1:17); this doesn't mean, however, that God never alters his temporary purposes in response to the actions of humans. He may, for example, alter his intentions of judgment because of the sincere repentence of sinners (cf. Jnh 3:6-10). Furthermore, he remains free to respond to the needs of human beings and to the prayers of his people. The Bible often speaks of God changing his mind as a result of the diligent prayers of the righteous (e. g., Nu 14:1-20; 2Ki 20:2-6; Isa 38:2-6; Lk 18:1-8 .... )
 
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E

enoch son

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I have to say brothern your doctrine understanding is good from the flesh view point. Does God the Father see you after your new birth or His son? I believe He see His son. And his son's outcome is finished nothing can be added or taken from it. I'm cover in the blood and just a voice out of it that is a aroma unto Him. Even when I make a mistake Jesus intercedes on my behalf (this is in a pray realm). Everything else in Him is perfect. Faith not sight. I just believe it's alot more simple then all this theory so to speak.
 
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TheScottsMen

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Whoah! Great post again! Pretty much sums up everything I believe on the subject!

#I like this definition (which I think is very close to Dake's as well)#

I agree again. The Full Life Study Bible and Dake are right in the middle. Though, I think Open Theism in general may be a bit more radical.

Dakes view on a lot of Gods attributes are different then most peoples. Examples:

God is Omnipresent (God is not omni-body) Because Dakes theology states that God has a spirit body he thus cannot be everywhere at the same time. So, the doctrine of Omnipresent is wrapped up this way - Presence is governed by relationship, not bodily sight. When the body of anyone is not literally present, one cannot say that it is present. The presence of two persons may be felt though thousands of miles may separate them bodily. In such a case, presence consists of union, relationship, memory, acquaintance, and association to the same end of life. The closer two persons are to each other in any relationship, the more they feel each other's presence in the thought life. So it is with God. God dwells in Heaven and persons on earth that know Him are in union with Him in spirit and feel His presence in their lives regardless of where they are on the Earth or under the Earth.

Omniscient - God's eternal plan for man is known from the beginning to the end and what He plans to bring to pass on Earth He has power to do, but concerning the free actions of free moral agents HE does not know from all eternity what they will do before they are in existence and are here to have a part in His plan. He does not know which ones will be saved and which ones will be lost. He has made a plan for all to be saved alike and all who conform to His plan are blessed with the predestined blessings. Those who willfully rebel will be cursed with the predestined punishments according to the plan. It is the plan that is known from the beginning to the end, not the individual conformity to it by free more agents. It is left up to each person to choose his own destiny. God wills all men to be saved but if man does not choose to be saved that is his responsibility ( 1 Tim 2:4; 2 Pet 3:9; John 3:16; Rev 22:17)

Omnipotent - Within God's own realm He is omnipotent, but there are certain spheres in which He does not and cannot operate; and there are certain things HE cannot do. We must therefore be sensible when we consider omnipotence-unlimited and universal power and authority within a certain sphere, or of a certain kind. God is Almighty and omnipotent in His own right of creation and redemption, and is His plan for man and all creations; but He has limited Himself in His dealings with free mortal agents. HE respects their will power and He gives them absolute right to act of their own free choice to conform to His will and consecrate themselves to the highest good of being and of universe. HE has laid down the laws whereby they should live and conduct themselves, and has made penalties for all sin and rewards for all acts of obedience. In these matters God is omnipotent, but there are certain things he CANNOT do.

GOD CANNOT: lie (heb 6:17-19) deny himself, or act contrary to his own eternal truth (2 tim 2:13) have respect of persons (Rom 2:11; Col 3:25; 2 Pet 1:17) save a soul apart from faith and grace in Christ (rom 3:25) etc..

God limits Himself, according to his own revelation of Himself, along other lines, whether by nature or by choice is not always stated. For example, God's compassion and love can be considered infinite and all-comprehensive, yet he naturally has to limit his exercise of His love to those that will not conform to His Plan (Ex 20:5-6; John 3:16-18) God has had to punish people whom He one time had compassion for. Etc..

--

I never have asked other WOF'ers their view on this theology much. What about you? Going back to the hermeneutical thought on Dakes, its a shame that more Ministries and Colleges do not teach more on these grounds.

Even in a WOF college its hard to find good lit. I had required reading for my HERM2 authors Gordon D. Fee, Douglas Stuart, D. Brent Sandy & Ronald L. Giese Jr. Let me quote from one of Mr.Fees book

"Even among more theologically orthodox people, however, many strange ideas manage to gain acceptance in various quarters. For example, one of the current rages among American Protestants, especially charismatics, is the so-called wealth and health gospel. The "good news" is that God's will for you is financial and material prosperity! One of the advocates of this "gospel" begins his book by arguing FOR THE "PLAIN SENSE" of the Scripture and claiming that he puts the Word of God first and foremost throughout his study. HE says that it is not what we THINK it says but what it actually SAYS that counts. The "plain meaning" IS what he is after. But one begins to wonder what the "plain meaning" really is when financial prosperity is argued as the will of God from biblical scriptures. One may rightly question whether the plain meaning is being sought at all; perhaps the plain meaning is simply what such a writer wants the text to mean in order to support his Pet ideas."

Now keep in mind, I attend a WOF church AND COLLEGE and this is the type of garbage that is available for Hermeneutics courses! Its no wonder people will willingly live in poverty, sickness and and fall to other weapons of the devil! There not told to BELIEVE what the Word says but to interpret the Word to such a degree that it becomes a cold science and not living waters. Just imagine if we had the Word in such a degree in us that all the promises of scripture became a reality not just in thought but in heart! Praise God when that day comes full swing! When instead of watching the news and seeing that bad things happening on this planet that instead we hear,see and become these believers of Christ raising the dead, healing the sick and casting down every weapon of the devil that holds this world hostage! Glory be to God in the day! But who knows, all it takes is one spark to inflame the barn. Maybe it will happen today or even tomorrow.

TSM

 
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