Fine tuning, a new approach

[lesliedellow]

Beyond our current ability to measure is very different than unquantifiable. We quantified all manner of things in science before having the technological ability to measure it directly.

So where a outs in the universe are you expecting to find God, so that you can start performing your measurements upon him?

 

[[serious]]

So where a outs in the universe are you expecting to find God, so that you can start performing your measurements upon him?

Same ones that she can apply to a multiverse. If events in a prior universe triggered the big bang, that would likewise be impossible for us to measure since it lies outside our timeline. However, she is applying demands to that type of scenario that she excuses a divine creator from.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Same ones that she can apply to a multiverse. If events in a prior universe triggered the big bang, that would likewise be impossible for us to measure since it lies outside our timeline. However, she is applying demands to that type of scenario that she excuses a divine creator from.

An Intelligent Being that is eternal, non-physical and not created by the natural world is not explained by the natural world, the natural world is explained by Him.

 

[[serious]]

An Intelligent Being that is eternal, non-physical and not created by the natural world is not explained by the natural world, the natural world is explained by Him.

In that case:
Laws of physics that are eternal, non-physical and not created by the natural world are not explained by the natural world, the natural world is explained by them.

 

[lesliedellow]

In that case:
Laws of physics that are eternal, non-physical and not created by the natural world are not explained by the natural world, the natural world is explained by them.

So how does that affect the fact that they seem to be fine tuned?

 

[[serious]]

So how does that affect the fact that they seem to be fine tuned?

It doesn't. The point of this thread is demonstrating that the same logic that gets you to a fine tuner for the laws of nature also get you to a fine tuner for God. The same logic that can get you apparent fine tuning for one without some entity dialing in the numbers can likewise excuse the other.

 

[lesliedellow]

It doesn't. The point of this thread is demonstrating that the same logic that gets you to a fine tuner for the laws of nature also get you to a fine tuner for God.

Except that it doesn't. because we have no comparable data relating to God.

 

[[serious]]

Except that it doesn't. because we have no comparable data relating to God.

We have no comparable data for anything that preceded the big bang, or anything outside of our light cone.

 

[Oncedeceived]

In that case:
Laws of physics that are eternal, non-physical and not created by the natural world are not explained by the natural world, the natural world is explained by them.

Why would the Laws of Physics be eternal and being laws where did they originate?

 

[Oncedeceived]

It doesn't. The point of this thread is demonstrating that the same logic that gets you to a fine tuner for the laws of nature also get you to a fine tuner for God. The same logic that can get you apparent fine tuning for one without some entity dialing in the numbers can likewise excuse the other.

How does logic exist without an intelligence? The universal laws of physics are not physical but non-physical rational phenomena.

 

[lesliedellow]

We have no comparable data for anything that preceded the big bang, or anything outside of our light cone.

So? We can still use mathematics to project backwards and forwards in time, and to observe what happens when the values of the fundamental constants are messed around with a bit.

 

[[serious]]

Why would the Laws of Physics be eternal and being laws where did they originate?

Eternal would mean they didn't originate. They could exist outside of time like God does.

 

[[serious]]

So? We can still use mathematics to project backwards and forwards in time, and to observe what happens when the values of the fundamental constants are messed around with a bit.

And we could postulate millions of types of gods. Whole pantheons even!

 

[[serious]]

How does logic exist without an intelligence? The universal laws of physics are not physical but non-physical rational phenomena.

Are you saying God isnt intelligent?

 

[KCfromNC]

You asked for calculations for how they determine the fine tuning, that is what I gave you.

Nope, you quoted a few sources with wildly conflicting numbers.

 

[KCfromNC]

Lot of special pleading goin on in here....

How dare you question the fine-tuning power of the Invisible Pink Unicorn. She's obviously the reason the Christian God is so fine tuned.

 

[KCfromNC]

Why would the Laws of Physics be eternal and being laws where did they originate?

Same questions for your god(s).

And weren't you arguing previously that we're OK assuming the constants could be different because there's no real evidence one way or the other? Why not apply the same standard here?

 

[[serious]]

How dare you question the fine-tuning power of the Invisible Pink Unicorn. She's obviously the reason the Christian God is so fine tuned.

Unfortunately, IPU would also need to be fine tuned by something even more fine tuned, by something still yet more fine tuned.

 

[KCfromNC]

Unfortunately, IPU would also need to be fine tuned by something even more fine tuned, by something still yet more fine tuned.

No it wouldn't!!!1!!1!

 

[lesliedellow]

And we could postulate millions of types of gods. Whole pantheons even!

There is no need to postulate anything about the universe, unless, Dad style, you want to postulate that the laws of nature were different in the past. If that were the case, cosmologists would just need to pack their bags and go home, because they wouldn't be able to infer anything from what they observe.