ChristianCenturion said:
I really don't understand your last statement here. God didn't place us on this Earth, give us teaching so that it may do us well and leave it a mystery as to what He has already judged as good and what He has judged as wicked. We are all going to stand before Him during Judgment and there will be those with the law and those without, those that say "Lord, Lord", those that have their names in the book of Life, those that He may say "well done" and those that traded their inheritance for a bowl of stew.
My wife and I know what is expected of us and we know that it is agape love that keeps the eros love in proper boundaries. There is submission to God which is held before indulgence of self gratification or even gratification of the other's desires. We are not wondering blindly, not knowing what is expected, so we will not be in a position to give excuses when we are before God.
Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualitieshis eternal power and divine naturehave been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
Matthew 22:36-39
36Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law? 37Jesus replied: Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38
This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself.
I agree that God hasn't left us in the dark. The Bible provides a good guide. But if we've learned anything over the years, it is that the Bible isn't easy. It is a guide, not a script, and it takes work.
Every reader brings his own thoughts and experiences to anything he reads, including the Bible. When you're trying to figure out what God would have you do in a given situation, you don't dig for the section that tells you, for example, "What to do when you're in your car and someone cuts you off and then gives you the finger." Rather you look to apply a passage that you think is relevant. Maybe you feel that someone has committed an offence against you by making that gesture and that you should be patient and overlook it according to Proverbs 19:11: A man's wisdom gives him patience; it is to his glory to overlook an offense. So you smile and try to ignore it.
You've interpreted someone giving you the finger as an offense, you picked a passage that you think applies (even though the passage nowhere mentions middle fingers), and you decide that smiling and ignoring the gesture is an appropriate act of patience, even though God didn't say
how specifically you should overlook the offense.
We also try and interpret what the
writers of the Bible meant in saying what they said, by trying to understand the times they were writing in, what we think their intent was, etc etc etc. For example, the ten commandments says you should honor your mother and father. But what if your mother and father died and you were raised by an aunt and uncle? Although they're not technically your mother and father, you might conclude that Bible probably meant you should honor those you think of as your mother and father, or those who have acted as your mother and father. So you make that interpretation and you honor the aunt and uncle who raised you.
In any case, you have to be an active reader. Let's turn to a passage I know we're all familiar with and that some might argue has relevance for the theme of this thread. Leviticus says: "If a man also lie with mankind as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination . . .." No one contends that this passage means that man literally shouldn't lie down next to a man. Rather, we generally
interpret "lieth" in this context to mean "have sex with." After all, people can have sex standing up and no one (that I know of) has ever tried to contend that Leviticus stands for the proposition that men shouldn't have sex with another man lying down, but can do it standing up. In addition to this level of interpretation, there are those that might add that a look into history reveals that this passage might be more about idolatrous ritual sex then about intimacy between people of the same sex in general.
My point is that we have to read the Bible actively, and not be afraid to try and understand
how it should be read, even if that understanding changes over time. I certainly don't have all the answers, but I personally believe that among God's major themes are to love one another, to treat each other with respect (the Golden Rule), and to recognize God as our Lord and Savior. You will undoubtedly also contend that sexually immorality is a theme. Yes, but what were God and the writers of the Bible getting at with teachings on this subject? What is the core of this teaching? Is it about what you do per se, or why and how you're doing it? Which passages go to this theme, and what is their place in God's general philosophy? This is where you and I part ways ....
ChristianCenturion said:
I never assumed that there was proclivity for orgies, but that too would be equivalent to same gender sexual relations so I do not see a point in distinguishing between the two.
Galatians 5:21
But if I have read the phrasing of your statements mistakenly as meaning a relationship that includes sexual properties instead of an intended friendship that is void of sexual context, then I apologize. If I was not in error, then I don't see where "thoughtful consideration by the Christian community" has not been applied. The Christian community has had sexual immorality thrust upon it's consideration even before the beginning. This is nothing new and God is not bewildered in the face of sophistry and man's desire to follow his own desires.
So perhaps we can lay aside any 'misunderstanding' and place it in a proper context. Is your 'current relationship' that is being presented as acceptable between the same gender and does it include a sexual component?
I believe the answer to that would clear up a lot of potential 'assumptions'.
I will begin by saying that I'm not going to discuss what does or does not happen in my own bedroom on this forum. Be it of the same or opposite sex, out of respect for any relationship I'm in I'm not going to open my bedroom door to the world.
The reason I started this thread in the first place is because I thought there was a divide in the Christian community as to the "ok"-ness of same-sex relationships in general, and I had a story to tell about how positive and loving my own experience has been. Am I hearing now that the only problem you have with same-sex relationships is that they may involve pre-marital sex?
Do you think that pre-marital sex is "more sinful" or somehow morally different when it is between people of the same gender then when it is between people of the opposite gender? Is the only problem here one of "fornication" or "adultery", or do you think there's an added issue that people of the same-sex shouldn't experience romantic love with each other at all, let alone having sex?
What is "romantice love" anyway? My relationship with this person is certainly not platonic in the sense that I think of her as my girlfriend. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that we're not sleeping together. But we do go on "dates" to the movies, have candlelit dinners, etc., and we don't date other people because we are in an exclusive relationship. This is certainly not what a traditional platonic friendship looks like, but would you consider it a sin? I'm just trying to understand what the argument is ....
In sum: Is a same-sex relationship sinful just because it involves pre-marital sex? Can I kiss my girlfriend or hold her hand (physical, but not what we normally think of as sex)? Can I hold her in my arms and tell her I love her?
