Finding Beauty in People

[xMinionX]

If someone was fired for being gay, the shortest lawsuit ever would follow.

Agreed.... if the reason for being fired was openly cited as the former employee being gay. I doubt any employer would be dumb enough to actually say that, but, as we see in the above quote, they certainly feel that way. Employer could very easily just say "He/she was a shoddy employee/disrespectful/etc."

 

[For christ alone]

Noble views, but you'll probably get smacked with a bible posting that in here.

Allow me to do the bible smacking.

"Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable." Leviticus 18:22 (NIV)

"Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolators nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God." 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (NIV)

"Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body." 1 Corinthians 6:18-20 (NIV)

 

[For christ alone]

And God Made them Male and Female.

And some people like to say.
He made adam and eve not adam and steve.

 

[ebonicsonly]

And God Made them Male and Female.

And some people like to say.
He made adam and eve not adam and steve.

We fail to discuss a part of that-

Genesis 1:27

God created man in his own image. In God's image he created him; male and female he created them.

BTW- Non-Christians aren't under biblical guidelines. The bible is a guide book for Judism and Christianity. The Old Testament doesn't apply to Christians as far as laws are concerned either unless you don't eat pork,shave and keep your head covered at all times. No one has a right to go through the Bible and pick and choose what does and doesn't apply.

 

[maniaco_risa]

He made adam and eve not adam and steve.

'love is tender and knows no gender'
you're not the only one who knows how to rhyme...

 

[CSMR]

Having had romantic relationships with persons of different genders (though, for whatever it's worth, I'm usually first attracted to those of the opposite gender), I feel that sexuality for me is not about "sex" as much as it is about love. When it comes to love, I believe in commitment, honesty, respect, and that intangible "click." If I find those things in someone's soul, their chromosomes take a back seat in fueling my attraction and ability to enter into a committed, loving relationship with that individual. One of my favorite things in life is the fulfillment that comes from finding the beauty in someone's soul, mind and body (in that order , and the magic that comes when those wondrous discoveries ripen into a genuine love.

You need to look at what God says about loves. Not all loves are approved by God, only one love, the love that reponds to God's love through faith in obedience.

 

[beechy]

You need to look at what God says about loves. Not all loves are approved by God, only one love, the love that reponds to God's love through faith in obedience.

I don't believe there is evidence anywhere in the Bible of God's condemnation of love between two people solely because it is between persons of the same gender. I formed this opinion long before I entertained the possibility of entering into a relationship with someone of the same gender.



As I said in my original post, I don't mean to start a debate about what certain specific passages mean. I think I know which verses you'll site in this debate, and I think you know how I would refute your interpretation. These arguments have both been around for a little while now (E.g., You: Sodom and Gomorrah=God struck the men of Sodom blind because they were gay; ME: Sodom and Gomorrah=God struck the men of Sodom blind because they were trying to gang rape a couple of angels, etc. etc. etc.)



I believe God is about genuine love, kindness, respect for your fellow human beings, and honoring God and God alone (not money, statues, the church, etc etc) as the champion and creator of these principles. Two consenting adults acting and loving each other in a way that would not be controversial to you save our genders is not condemned in the Bible, nor does it in and of itself go against any principle of God's teachings.

 

[ebonicsonly]

Foolishness indeed, but I doubt many people face workplace discrimination over it. If someone was fired for being gay, the shortest lawsuit ever would follow.

You do realize its legal federally to fire a homosexual because they are homosexual..correct? In many state this is also true.Why do you think gays are looking for civil rights? This is not solely marriaage.

 

[beechy]

I recognize the "differing interpretations" as being there. The only problem is that those interpretations are faulty ones. They do not adhere to the text and are made by distorting the text and especially the original languages. Just a poor try at justifying a lifestyle that God condemns.

Why are my interpretations faulty while yours are not? I'm offering another perspective, and I suppose you've just dismissed it. That is, of course, your right -- but I invite you to have the courage to question the status quo. Don't question God, question our understanding of God ...

 

[beechy]

Futhermore, it should say something to you that the only people who agree with you in here are those who also deny Jesus as Savior. I am sorry but they are not the ones you should be on the side of theologically. Those outside Jesus cannot know the things of God. You may want to re-evaluate your relationship with Jesus.

I'm not on their side, I'm on my side. A side reached after reading, life experience, and much introspection. I think that the typical interpretation of certain passages has been taken for granted and gone unexamined by the Christian community for far too long. My journey is certainly not over -- I'm still learning every day -- but just because a belief is popularly held does not make it right. I'm interested in God, not popularity (although, of course, it's ideal when the two coincide!)

 

[xMinionX]

"Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable." Leviticus 18:22 (NIV)

I know Beechy didn't want this thread to turn into a big debate, but it just annoys me when people use this verse to justify limiting gay rights.

Did you know that that very book you are quoting (Leviticus) also commands the village to stone rebellious children and any man who blasphemes or curses? In fact, most of the crimes in that book (including homosexuality) carry a horrible death sentence (usually stoning or burning). Are you prepared to push for the death penalty for homosexuality? Do you eat shellfish? Do you shave your beard? Don't cite leviticus against homosexuality unless you also are prepared to cite it against shaving, and wish death by stoning on those who commit said crimes.

 

[ChristianCenturion]

I know Beechy didn't want this thread to turn into a big debate, but it just annoys me when people use this verse to justify limiting gay rights.

Did you know that that very book you are quoting (Leviticus) also commands the village to stone rebellious children and any man who blasphemes or curses? In fact, most of the crimes in that book (including homosexuality) carry a horrible death sentence (usually stoning or burning). Are you prepared to push for the death penalty for homosexuality? Do you eat shellfish? Do you shave your beard? Don't cite leviticus against homosexuality unless you also are prepared to cite it against shaving, and wish death by stoning on those who commit said crimes.

And what would the basis for your request be founded upon?
Leviticus 18, as do others, speak on matters concerning both Jew and Gentile. Your request places that which concerns only Jew as applying to all. That would not be in accordance with Christian doctrine. Whereas the eating customs and practices have scriptures that give freedom under the New Covenant, sexual immorality has zero, none, nada, zilch, etc.

 

[ChristianCenturion]

I thought that the original OP was about valuing people as one of God's creations which is also made in His image, not a platform for a new doctrine. Satan too is one of God's creations, but I will not honor what deceptions, acts, teachings or condemnation he would have for me.
I am disappointed and fearful of the reward for some teaching a different gospel and scattering those that may repent and receive salvation as God desires. And for some to do so with evident motivations because they are slaves to their unnatural passions is saddening to see and compounding the grief.

Titus 2:11-15
11For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. 12It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live selfcontrolled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 13while we wait for the blessed hope–the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.
15These, then, are the things you should teach. Encourage and rebuke with all authority. Do not let anyone despise you.

Hebrews 8:11
No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest.

James 3:1
Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.

I have within me He that puts to to rest what is false; thus, I have long ago considered and now speak against that which contradicts both scripture and the Spirit. I am far from alone in stating that same gender sexual relations is sexual immorality.

John 14:26
But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

As a Jew or a Christian, a lesson can be learned with the rebuke to the Hebrews who had the law, yet practiced that which contradicted the law or joined with those that did:

Romans 2:5-24
5But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6God “will give to each person according to what he has done.” 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are selfseeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism.

12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

17Now you, if you call yourself a Jew; if you rely on the law and brag about your relationship to God; 18if you know his will and approve of what is superior because you are instructed by the law; 19if you are convinced that you are a guide for the blind, a light for those who are in the dark, 20an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of infants, because you have in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth– 21you, then, who teach others, do you not teach yourself? You who preach against stealing, do you steal? 22You who say that people should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23You who brag about the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law? 24As it is written: “God's name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.”

If the call is to respect the person, I shall join in lifting that up. If the call is to deceive and to glorify lust of the flesh, to claim that which God has already judged and revealed as wicked is good for man, I will rebuke openly as I ought to do.

2 John 1:4-11
4It has given me great joy to find some of your children walking in the truth, just as the Father commanded us. 5And now, dear lady, I am not writing you a new command but one we have had from the beginning. I ask that we love one another. 6And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.
7Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist. 8Watch out that you do not lose what you have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully. 9Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 10If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him. 11Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work.

I would much rather join in agreeing that we should show love to everyone, but that does not mean I will abandon God's will of testifying the correct Way. False doctrine not only scatters the seeds, it busies the worker in correcting when he could be nurturing or harvesting.

 

[beechy]

And what would the basis for your request be founded upon?
Leviticus 18, as do others, speak on matters concerning both Jew and Gentile. Your request places that which concerns only Jew as applying to all. That would not be in accordance with Christian doctrine. Whereas the eating customs and practices have scriptures that give freedom under the New Covenant, sexual immorality has zero, none, nada, zilch, etc.

Ok -- xMinionX is right -- I didn't want to go here, but I have to agree about Leviticus in particular. How about Leviticus 19? Do you wear clothing woven of two different types of cloth? That was not later addressed or rescinded in the Bible. The relevance of the Levitical code of Priests, I agree, xMinionX is (though very interesting for its historical qualities) the most easily dismissed in terms of the particulars of what it condemns. There is a sizable contingent that points to the male-male sex thing in Leviticus as condemning the male ritual prostitution of the time. (I'll include some links if you want, but I'm sure you're aware of this already ...)

 

[Ninja Turtles]

The verses about homosexuality are the most important verses in the Bible. That's why you see so many descend on threads dealing with gay people, they must uphold the three most important commandments.

There are three important commandments that you must always follow:

1. Love your neighbor as yourself.
2. Love God.
3. Homosexuality is an abomination and they burn.

It's in there! Just look somewhere in the back.

 

[beechy]

ChristianCenturion: It's funny that we just posted at the same time. I'm assuming that your last lengthy post was directed toward me, and I don't understand your fear of my views. I am working from the same Bible you are, but we have reached different conclusions based on the same text. I'm not trying to convince anybody to abandon God, but rather to put my perspective out there and leave it to each individual to read through the Bible and pray for their own understanding.

I agree with the sentiment you are trying to convey with the collection of verses about obeying God and being leery of human teaching. However, your self righteousness gives me the sense that you must fancy yourself beyond the simple, falliable human. And the fact that your view are shared by many doesn't make them any more correct. Just more popular.

Finally, I can only shake my head sadly at your characterization of my relationship as the product of "unnatural lust." Though I'm less offended for myself than I am for my partner -- a genuine, sweet, smart, wonderful person. I don't feel the need to justify what we have (I'm so greatful for it I'm almost overwhelmed with how lucky I am), but because this may be unfamiliar to some, I'll say that our relationship was quite unexpected for me and grew out of an ever strengthening friendship. Our lives interweave over dinner, through conversation, in our shared interest in music, art, and the complexities of religion. When you fall in love this way, the physicality is but a part of the puzzle.

 

[beechy]

I myself do not believe in same sex relationships
However, I do not believe in the condemnation of homosexuals either
Though sin is not measured
If i were to measure the greater sin
I would believe that persecuting homosexuals is a greater sin than being homosexual

I would like to thank those of you in this forum who have expressed their sexuality openly
You have opened my mind to new ideas
I now realize that the love you may share with the same sex is still love
And love is beautiful
Trully beautiful
I now have a more refined perspective

Where in the bible does it say God hates sinners?
Where in the bible does it say to persecute homosexuals more than adulterers or murderers?
Where does God say to judge others?
Love is so beautiful
Why don't we love instead...

No, thank you ... I .... thank you. I was on the other side of this coin before. Respectful of other's lives, but placing those who preferred those of the same gender as definite "others." But now that I've fallen in love with a wonderful person who happens to share my gender, I can't imagine holding that against her.

 

[ChristianCenturion]

ChristianCenturion: It's funny that we just posted at the same time. I'm assuming that your last lengthy post was directed toward me, and I don't understand your fear of my views(1). I am working from the same Bible you are, but we have reached different conclusions based on the same text(2). I'm not trying to convince anybody to abandon God, but rather to put my perspective out there and leave it to each individual to read through the Bible and pray for their own understanding.

I agree with the sentiment you are trying to convey with the collection of verses about obeying God and being leery of human teaching. However, your self righteousness gives me the sense that you must fancy yourself beyond the simple, falliable human(3). And the fact that your view are shared by many doesn't make them any more correct. Just more popular.(4)

Finally, I can only shake my head sadly at your characterization of my relationship as the product of "unnatural lust."(5) Though I'm less offended for myself than I am for my partner -- a genuine, sweet, smart, wonderful person.(6) I don't feel the need to justify what we have (I'm so greatful for it I'm almost overwhelmed with how lucky I am), but because this may be unfamiliar to some, I'll say that our relationship was quite unexpected for me and grew out of an ever strengthening friendship. Our lives interweave over dinner, through conversation, in our shared interest in music, art, and the complexities of religion. When you fall in love this way, the physicality is but a part of the puzzle.(7)

I'll restate some of what I have already answered to others over time...
1) The fear is for you and for the justice God has made known that will come, I would rather nobody condemn themself.
2) As stated before, I have considered the issue and I am in accordance with mind, scripture AND Spirit. I do not stumble in this issue and I do not have competing desires to deceive my discernment.
3) I have no self-righteousness. I am as Job and but a worm and my deeds are but filthy rags; yet, I am also in the image of God and have God within me and God works through me. If God grants me righteousness and allows me to serve His will, I would take heed before one is inclined to say otherwise.
4) That which you encourage is 'popular' with the world. The scriptures also show the value of the Body judging internal matters. Your comment here doesn't contradict what I stated. And as pointed out before in another thread, even the denomination you use has their judgment known on the issue.
http://headlines.agapepress.org/archive/10/afa/312003c.asp
http://headlines.agapepress.org/archive/10/182004a.asp
5) It was not to insult, but to speak truth in the midst of a worldly discussion that encourages contradiction to God's will. If you shake your head at me, then you shake your head at scripture and saints alike. Romans 1:26
I could have easily phrased it against God's intent or against nature, pending what translation I chose and what repeated teaching I lifted up.
6) Yes, I know of many men that I love and are "genuine, sweet, smart, wonderful person" and I share that vocally with them at times and embrace them in godly fashion. I do the same with women, but I practice restraint and accountability in doing so. Thus the disappointment I find in the thread title vs. the message within... a clean cup that is not so on the inside - to borrow a scripture. There is beauty in what God has made, there is also wickedness that can be done with that - this is not a foreign or unknown concept.
7) Yes, I'm sure that is how you prefer to describe it. I, however, have the purpose and ability to shine the Light amid this discussion and am moved by the Spirit to do so. My words stand firm. I do not apologize for tending the fields.
Matthew 13

 

[Chrysalis Kat]

Futhermore, it should say something to you that the only people who agree with you in here are those who also deny Jesus as Savior. I am sorry but they are not the ones you should be on the side of theologically. Those outside Jesus cannot know the things of God. You may want to re-evaluate your relationship with Jesus.

OH please do tell us where you were able to get that Christ-O-Meter device that allows you to look into other people's hearts and know exactly the status of their personal relationship with God?

 

[Ninja Turtles]

OH please do tell us where you were able to get that Christ-O-Meter device that allows you to look into other people's hearts and know exactly the status of their personal relationship with God?

Yeah that happens to me, people point their Christ-O-Meter at me and when I don't think the way they think, all of a sudden I become some sort of demon spawn. It's interesting I must say. But nothing was worse than the evangelical missionary I met on a plane once, amazing.

Truncated Bible verses and all sorts of mess, I never want to be on a plane with a missionary group trying to "save" me.