Finding a new parish

[wayseer]

Personally, "spontaneous" worship is more my idea of hell than heaven.

Good one.

 

[MKJ]

Like Albion said - it sounds from that like you need somewhere with a different worship and leadership style. Such has been around for a while for those who want it.

Personally, "spontaneous" worship is more my idea of hell than heaven.

Yup, me too.

I also have to object to the idea that scripted worship is not sincere. That is I think a gross misunderstanding of its purpose. Sometimes I don't feel sincere - I don't want to worship in a way that gives God his due, I don't want to love my neighbour, I don't want to submit myself to his direction. One reason i attend Church anyway is that I know, no matter how I feel, God will be worshiped there with the dignity and awe and joy and seriousness he deserves, that I can chant the psalms along with everyone else and participate and hear the true words of the Scriptures and recieve the Eucharist together with the rest of the congregation. I can sink into the prayers I know well and they will remind me who I am and who God is and what he has done. I can, unless i am in a really bad way, be uplifted by beautiful music and art and such and maybe get a glimps of the Divine despite my mood, and even if I can't I know it is there anyway.

I spend altogether too much time thinking about and indulging myself. I don't go to Sunday worship or weekday worship for that matter to focus on my emotional state but rather on God.

There are a ton of Christian groups dedicated in one way or another to worship based on the personal response to God at any given moment. It isn't really a new or radical idea and in most cases it is not hard to find such groups (although it can be more difficult to find ones with a substantial intellectual tradition - the Quakers come to mind as a possibility there though they are a rather quiet lot.)

 

[MichaelNZ]

I don't know - to me if you have the right beliefs to goand become Catholic, you probably don't have any other choice, unless you are thinking of being a kind of permanent visitor (which is a valid choice too.)

Many Roman Catholic churches have become quite modernised and possibly less traditional than Anglican churches. In my hometown of Dunedin, New Zealand, I attended Mass at several Catholic churches around the city. For Sunday Mass, all but the cathedral had the words to the hymns displayed on an overhead projector. The cathedral had hymn sheets. None had hymn books. The hymns were often contemporary Catholic songs like "Brother, Sister, Let Me Serve You" and "I am the Bread of Life".

Just round the road from my house in Dunedin was a beautiful Anglo-Catholic church. I attended Evensong there a few times and one Compline service. It was far more traditional than the Roman Catholic services, as is the Anglican church I attend now.

If you're looking for a traditional liturgy, then I wouldn't go to the Roman Catholics. There are probably some churches that have a more traditional liturgy with incense etc, but you'll have to go looking. There are some Roman Catholic churches that offer the pre-Vatican II Mass in Latin, but they are usually much more traditional in doctrine as well (especially those run by the Society of St Pius X). With regard to the Serbian Orthodox, their service will most likely be in Church Slavonic, and possibly the sermon will be in Serbian. If you want to go check it out first - you don't want to end up standing for 2 hours listening to a service in a language you don't understand!

Here is a list of some Anglo-Catholic churches in Australia. See if any of them are in or near your area.

 

[MKJ]

Many Roman Catholic churches have become quite modernised and possibly less traditional than Anglican churches. In my hometown of Dunedin, New Zealand, I attended Mass at several Catholic churches around the city. For Sunday Mass, all but the cathedral had the words to the hymns displayed on an overhead projector. The cathedral had hymn sheets. None had hymn books. The hymns were often contemporary Catholic songs like "Brother, Sister, Let Me Serve You" and "I am the Bread of Life".

Just round the road from my house in Dunedin was a beautiful Anglo-Catholic church. I attended Evensong there a few times and one Compline service. It was far more traditional than the Roman Catholic services, as is the Anglican church I attend now.

If you're looking for a traditional liturgy, then I wouldn't go to the Roman Catholics. There are probably some churches that have a more traditional liturgy with incense etc, but you'll have to go looking. There are some Roman Catholic churches that offer the pre-Vatican II Mass in Latin, but they are usually much more traditional in doctrine as well (especially those run by the Society of St Pius X). With regard to the Serbian Orthodox, their service will most likely be in Church Slavonic, and possibly the sermon will be in Serbian. If you want to go check it out first - you don't want to end up standing for 2 hours listening to a service in a language you don't understand!

Here is a list of some Anglo-Catholic churches in Australia. See if any of them are in or near your area.

I wasn't thinking of traditional or modern liturgy at all. I was thinking that if a person is willing to accept the requirements to be Catholic - like the Pope has universal jurisdiction - then he is probably going to feel morally obliged to be Catholic. And if he doesn't accept those things, it would be rather difficult to become Catholic.

 

[ebia]

Many Roman Catholic churches have become quite modernised and possibly less traditional than Anglican churches. In my hometown of Dunedin, New Zealand, I attended Mass at several Catholic churches around the city. For Sunday Mass, all but the cathedral had the words to the hymns displayed on an overhead projector. The cathedral had hymn sheets. None had hymn books. The hymns were often contemporary Catholic songs like "Brother, Sister, Let Me Serve You" and "I am the Bread of Life".

Just round the road from my house in Dunedin was a beautiful Anglo-Catholic church. I attended Evensong there a few times and one Compline service. It was far more traditional than the Roman Catholic services, as is the Anglican church I attend now.

If you're looking for a traditional liturgy, then I wouldn't go to the Roman Catholics. There are probably some churches that have a more traditional liturgy with incense etc, but you'll have to go looking. There are some Roman Catholic churches that offer the pre-Vatican II Mass in Latin, but they are usually much more traditional in doctrine as well (especially those run by the Society of St Pius X). With regard to the Serbian Orthodox, their service will most likely be in Church Slavonic, and possibly the sermon will be in Serbian. If you want to go check it out first - you don't want to end up standing for 2 hours listening to a service in a language you don't understand!

Here is a list of some Anglo-Catholic churches in Australia. See if any of them are in or near your area.

I'm not fussed about how high the liturgy is nor whether the parish is evangelical or catholic in it's thinking.

I don't mind the NO mass, and I don't have an aversion to updating the technology we use to access hymn texts and similar.

 

[MichaelNZ]

I wasn't thinking of traditional or modern liturgy at all. I was thinking that if a person is willing to accept the requirements to be Catholic - like the Pope has universal jurisdiction - then he is probably going to feel morally obliged to be Catholic. And if he doesn't accept those things, it would be rather difficult to become Catholic.

In the modern Roman Catholic Church, there are laymen, priests and bishops who don't accept all the requirements to be Catholic, and nothing is usually done about them.

Yes, to be a Catholic, you have to accept all the dogmas of the Roman Catholic Church - to deny even one of them makes you a heretic. But even if you announce that you don't believe one such dogma (and thus admit that you are a heretic), often nothing will be done about it. For example, Fr John Zuhlsdorf, a Catholic priest and blogger, is urging the archbishop of San Francisco and Cardinal Donald Wuerl, Archbishop of Washington, to deny Holy Communion to pro-abortion Nancy Pelosi, the Minority Leader of the US House of Representatives, but nothing has yet been done, since the Cardinal feels that denying Communion would turn the Eucharist into a weapon. So while you might officially be a heretic, the RCC in most cases won't do anything about it.

 

[mark46]

I also object to the idea that scripted worship is not sincere.

For me, it is even stranger to posit that spontaneous worship/prayer is hell or even insincere.

Yup, me too.

I also have to object to the idea that scripted worship is not sincere. .

 

[mark46]

Hi ebia,

No one ever promised you that the spiritual life would be easy. That life is difficult is the teaching of most faith communities.

I suggest that you list the elements of Church that are important to you, as well as those that are critical. You clearly have some of both. Evaluate more than once, perhaps once every month or two.

In the US, we are often in the situation where we have many choices.
================
My advice is to

1) PRAY about this each day. Ask for signs. Ask for help.
2) Start attending the fuzzy Church. The rest seem to have critical failures for you.
3) Also, attend a second service each week from another denomination (perhaps with your family, perhaps not). I have done this several times. You might also check the church websites. Read their statements of faith and their bulletins You mention at least two non-Anglican denominations that seem to make sense for you: RCC and Lutheran. In many areas Methodist or Presbyterian might also be appropriate (as they would be in my area of the world). BTW, I would visit more than one in each denomination if they are available, as you have for Anglican churches.
4) My suspicion is that it will not hurt your spiritual walk (and your integration into your community) to experience your local church fellowships.

It would seem to me that attending the one acceptable Anglican church regularly would do two things. It would provide you and your family with a spiritual base and consistency. It is against this backdrop that you can evaluate other church fellowships. You need not join any church for some time.

From what you have said before, it seems that almost all these churches might have been acceptable when you were in a rural setting. My point is that you will likely not find a church that perfectly meets what you think that you want. In my experience, that method of choosing churches helps only minimally (vetoing the worst). In the end, the Holy Spirit will lead and (if you pray about this regularly) one day you will know that you are home. It is God's promise that if you seek, you WILL find.

BTW, I would not worry that you do not accept every element of the Church that you join. That is rarely the case, especially in one of the universal churches. My suspicion is that you would be quite content in an RCC church with a solid youth program. You would have much time to discuss theology within the Church. Of course, that situation might also be available in the fuzzy Anglican church (or not).

Personally, I am quite content in our Anglican Church. If I lived but 100 miles away, I might very well be in the RCC, Methodist or Lutheran churches.




Finally, we will pray for you. Enjoy the journey!

Hmmm

Maybe living in the country was easier - you don't expect a choice and live with what's available however good or bad. now we've moved to the metropolis things are more complicated.

I've always favored going to the local Anglican parish regardless of churchmanship etc, but that's out for historical reasons. The surrounding one's:
W. Is dying off. Services once a month or something
H. As above but evangelical
DC. Large, evangelical, includes people we'd rather not bump into
E. Fuzzy and liberal-Catholic
B. Broadly catholic. The liturgy is okay and seemed to be adequate, the sermons short but thought provoking. but Sunday school restarted this week and it's dire.

The local RCC is starting to look good - that's just about walkable and an interesting looking building.

 

[ebia]

Hi ebia,

No one ever promised you that the spiritual life would be easy. That life is difficult is the teaching of most faith communities.

I suggest that you list the elements of Church that are important to you, as well as those that are critical. You clearly have some of both. Evaluate more than once, perhaps once every month or two.

In the US, we are often in the situation where we have many choices.
================
My advice is to

1) PRAY about this each day. Ask for signs. Ask for help.
2) Start attending the fuzzy Church. The rest seem to have critical failures for you.
3) Also, attend a second service each week from another denomination (perhaps with your family, perhaps not). I have done this several times. You might also check the church websites. Read their statements of faith and their bulletins You mention at least two non-Anglican denominations that seem to make sense for you: RCC and Lutheran. In many areas Methodist or Presbyterian might also be appropriate (as they would be in my area of the world). BTW, I would visit more than one in each denomination if they are available, as you have for Anglican churches.
4) My suspicion is that it will not hurt your spiritual walk (and your integration into your community) to experience your local church fellowships.

It would seem to me that attending the one acceptable Anglican church regularly would do two things. It would provide you and your family with a spiritual base and consistency. It is against this backdrop that you can evaluate other church fellowships. You need not join any church for some time.

From what you have said before, it seems that almost all these churches might have been acceptable when you were in a rural setting. My point is that you will likely not find a church that perfectly meets what you think that you want. In my experience, that method of choosing churches helps only minimally (vetoing the worst). In the end, the Holy Spirit will lead and (if you pray about this regularly) one day you will know that you are home. It is God's promise that if you seek, you WILL find.

BTW, I would not worry that you do not accept every element of the Church that you join. That is rarely the case, especially in one of the universal churches. My suspicion is that you would be quite content in an RCC church with a solid youth program. You would have much time to discuss theology within the Church. Of course, that situation might also be available in the fuzzy Anglican church (or not).

Personally, I am quite content in our Anglican Church. If I lived but 100 miles away, I might very well be in the RCC, Methodist or Lutheran churches.



Finally, we will pray for you. Enjoy the journey!

Thanks.

Methodists, Presbyterian and Congregational churches merged here a long time ago to become the Uniting Church. My experience of them is that they've fudged so much to do that that they make Anglican doctrine and practice look well defined.

 

[mark46]

Aaah

It seems that you still have three fine choices: fuzzy Anglican, Lutheran and RCC.

As an aside, I think that if you attend RCC services for awhile (and talk to a priest or two), the Spirit will help you out. After all, this is a tradition that seems near to your heart. Perhaps another exercise for you is to examine each of the reasons why you are not in the RCC and why these are important.

Thanks.

Methodists, Presbyterian and Congregational churches merged here a long time ago to become the Uniting Church. My experience of them is that they've fudged so much to do that that they make Anglican doctrine and practice look well defined.

 

[ebia]

Perhaps another exercise for you is to examine each of the reasons why you are not in the RCC and why these are important.

Sometimes it seems plausible. Then I go and read OBOB.

 

[Albion]

Sometimes it seems plausible. Then o go and read OBOB.

It's a valid consideration. No matter which denomination we are speaking about, there's nothing like getting into it for finding out what it's like.

IOW, all the reading and all the advice in the world never quite tells the inquirer what the mood, the mindset, etc. of the leadership and members is going to be. It's too elusive. I might say "unofficial." However, you'll know it when you worship there and hang around with the parishioners for awhile.

 

[mark46]

There are two related solutions. Taste and see for yourself and stop reading OBOB. I would be surprised if your local church resembled OBOB much.

Seriously, I have taught at two catholic churches and was on the pastoral team of our prayer group for six years. While I respect the positions of all of our brothers and sisters in Christ, I do not find much similarity between my experiences and those who post on OBOB. The one notable exception is Jim.

I do not want to discuss OBOB except to say that most long for the old pre-Vatican II days. Many do not accept the leadership of this Holy Father, or really any post Vatican II.

For me, the RCC has a fine tradition. As was the case in those times, Church was mixed with politics. The Church has made mistakes. However, it is not all clear that there is a better choice to experience the universal church in today's world. I have chosen the Anglican Church here in South Carolina, but to my mind, this is a very special place in this age, not available in many other other areas.

Sometimes it seems plausible. Then I go and read OBOB.

 

[ebia]

stop reading OBOB. I would be surprised if your local church resembled OBOB much.

never had a scab you can't resist picking at?

 

[mark46]

I mean no offense toward those at OBOB, or those of any other faith community.

I have no great animosity toward OBOB. I just believe that that the Church is a very wide universal tent, and that one should not expect to see OBOB's views represented in every parish.

My point was that I would be surprised if a randomly chosen parish would be very close to what is posted at OBOB.

But you are right. I do have a great disappointment at not being able to discuss RCC issues here on CF. I believe that there is little representation of the views of the vast majority of Catholics, including those who accept the leadership of the Vatican.

never had a scab you can't resist picking at?

 

[ebia]

I mean no offense toward those at OBOB, or those of any other faith community.

I have no great animosity toward OBOB. I just believe that that the Church is a very wide universal tent, and that one should not expect to see OBOB's views represented in every parish.

My point was that I would be surprised if a randomly chosen parish would be very close to what is posted at OBOB.

But you are right. I do have a great disappointment at not being able to discuss RCC issues here on CF. I believe that there is little representation of the views of the vast majority of Catholics, including those who accept the leadership of the Vatican.

I dont suppose we do any better at making Anglicanism attractive.

 

[Albion]

My point was that I would be surprised if a randomly chosen parish would be very close to what is posted at OBOB.

Agreed. Most Catholics are really very nice people.

 

[ebia]

Agreed. Most Catholics are really very nice people.

I am aware of that - I've worked in Catholic education for 8 years.

 

[MKJ]

I also object to the idea that scripted worship is not sincere.

For me, it is even stranger to posit that spontaneous worship/prayer is hell or even insincere.

I didn't suggest that it was insincere. Nor that it was inappropriate in all contexts as you seem to be implying - the discussion was around regular, public worship.

Sincerity is not much of a bar for anything though. Chicken Soup for the Soul is sincere too, but it is banal, poorly written pap.

 

[MKJ]

In the modern Roman Catholic Church, there are laymen, priests and bishops who don't accept all the requirements to be Catholic, and nothing is usually done about them.

Yes, to be a Catholic, you have to accept all the dogmas of the Roman Catholic Church - to deny even one of them makes you a heretic. But even if you announce that you don't believe one such dogma (and thus admit that you are a heretic), often nothing will be done about it. For example, Fr John Zuhlsdorf, a Catholic priest and blogger, is urging the archbishop of San Francisco and Cardinal Donald Wuerl, Archbishop of Washington, to deny Holy Communion to pro-abortion Nancy Pelosi, the Minority Leader of the US House of Representatives, but nothing has yet been done, since the Cardinal feels that denying Communion would turn the Eucharist into a weapon. So while you might officially be a heretic, the RCC in most cases won't do anything about it.

I'm not sure this is a good recommendation for joining the Catholic Church without believing their teachings. Call me old fashioned, but it seems somehow wrong to promise to believe and do things you have no intention of trying to believe or do.