Fiery Hell

[packermann]

Let me just say that I'm more than happy to kick back and let people air and attempt to resolve their conflicting opinions within this thread.

I state right here I shall not be offended in any way.

The moderators are not as forgiving. I once spent an hour responding to someone other than the Ops. Then the staff deleted my post because I was not directing my post to the Ops.

 

[packermann]

43 And if thy hand cause thee to stumble, cut it off: it is good for thee to enter into life maimed, rather than having thy two hands to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire.


44 where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.


45 And if thy foot cause thee to stumble, cut it off: it is good for thee to enter into life halt, rather than having thy two feet to be cast into hell.


46 where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.


47 And if thine eye cause thee to stumble, cast it out: it is good for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell;


48 where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.




Mark 9

Three times Jesus says “their worm dieth not”. The connotation is clearly that their punishment is eternal. Also, Jesus says three times “the fire is not quenched”. If the souls are immediately annihilated into non-existence, what does it matter that the fire is never quenched?

If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire.

Matthew 18:9

Jesus here refers to eternal fire. Again, if the souls are immediately annihilated into non-existence, what does it matter that the fire is eternal.


Then he will say to those on his left, `Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels

Matt 25:41

Again, Jesus emphasizes that the fire is eternal.

They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.

2 Thess 1:9

If souls are immediately annihilated, then their destruction would be instantaneous and complete once they enter hell, and their destruction would not be eternal. But here it clear says there destruction is eternal. Also, it describes what their eternal destruction is – the exclusion of the presence of the Lord. If these souls simply ceased to exist, then how would they may aware of being excluded from God’s presence?


And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

Matthew 25:46

Here Jesus compares and contrasts the outcomes of the wicked and the righteous. The wicked gets punishment. The righteous gets life. Both get their outcomes eternally. Since the righteous get life eternally, the wicked get punishment eternally.


These verses clearly show that those in hell will suffer their punishment eternally.


19"Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day.
20"And a poor man named Lazarus (S)was laid at his gate, covered with sores,
21and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man's table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores.
22"Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.
23"In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.
24"And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.'
25"But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.
26'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.'
27"And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father's house--
28for I have five brothers--in order that he may (Y)warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
29"But Abraham said, 'They have (Z)Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.'
30"But he said, 'No, (AA)father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!'
31"But he said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.'"
Luke 16

Here, Jesus gives the story of the rich man and Lazarus. In verse 23, it says that the rich man is in hades – hell. The rich man does not cease to exist. The rich man “lifted up his eyes”. Those who cease to exist cannot lift their eyes. He is in torment. He sees Abraham and Lazarus. He asks that Lazarus would cool his tongue with water. He is agony. These things are a not possible if the rich man had ceased to exist. Only existent beings can lift their eyes. Only existent beings can cry out. Only existent beings can ask to be relieved of their agony.

The Bible is very clear that those in hell continue to exist for all eternity. This is why this is this is one area that Catholics, Orthodox, and 99.99% of all Protestant agree on.

 

[Jpark]

Yes, hell is a eternal place of torment.

 

[LJSGM]

DEATH can be an everlasting punishment as well.

The parable with Lazarus that Jesus was speaking of was a parable of hades, not of gehenna, and notice that both the righteous and wicked went there, just the righteous went to "abraham's bossom" which was still within hades. It was a holding place. Also, it is a metaphor. Purple and fine linen was symbolic of the Jews, and lazarus of the Gentiles. Look into, it's very interesting.

Yes, how CAN one be excluded from God's presence since God is omnipresent, and even in the debts of hades, there God is. One can only be away from God if they are destroyed and no longer exist. A creation has a beginning, and something that has a beginning CAN have an end. We are not "eternal" we are mortal. Only God, who does not have a beginning could never have an end. We are not God.

The bible does have a verse that mentions that there is a an everlasting destruction, and let me tell you the exact definiton of destroy or destruction = A bad END, look it up in a dictionary. No where will you find "everlasting suffering" or "everlasting torment." I believe that understanding was introduced later through the "Orthodox" churches.

 

[ebia]

DEATH can be an everlasting punishment as well.

The parable with Lazarus that Jesus was speaking of was a parable of hades, not of gehenna, and notice that both the righteous and wicked went there, just the righteous went to "abraham's bossom" which was still within hades. It was a holding place. Also, it is a metaphor. Purple and fine linen was symbolic of the Jews, and lazarus of the Gentiles. Look into, it's very interesting.

It's also significant that it is a parable - parables aren't teaching about the thing they are talking about or they wouldn't be parables. Just as the parable of the wheat and tares isn't about agriculture, the parable of Lazarus isn't about "hell".

 

[Jpark]

He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of God. (Revelation 14:10)

Spiritual destitution. Extreme poverty.

 

[LJSGM]

He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of God. (Revelation 14:10)

Spiritual destitution. Extreme poverty.

Those that recieve the mark of the beast.

Revelations is extremely metaphoric, not really much in there that you can take literally.

 

[ebia]

Those that recieve the mark of the beast.

Revelations is extremely metaphoric, not really much in there that you can take literally.

Not just metaphoric but apocalyptic.

 

[Jpark]

My mistake.
__________________

Those who follow the beast shall be tormented in the presence of God.

Those who are with Gog will know God. (Ezekiel 28:16, 23) Gog will know God. (Ezekiel 28:16) Gog is captured and cast alive into everlasting fire. (Revelation 19:20) And the rest are killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Christ and all the birds were filled with their flesh. (Revelation 19:21) And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever (Revelation 20:10) in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of God. (Revelation 14:10)

Those who do not know God, and those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus shall be punished from the presence of God.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

The absence of God's presence is the same as the absence of His Spirit for God is Spirit. (John 4:24)

 

[Proud Christian 2]

Wow. The way you described it...
HAHA! Hell is a place where unholy go. If you're Christian, you shouldn't worry about it. If your not, you shouldn't worry about it anyways, because to you, IT DOESN'T EXIst!
Hell is a place where pain is everywhere and those in it probably don't enjoy it.
Don't describe the bible as a place where God sends those he hates. Yes, thats how you describe it. And God loves everyone, so please don't do that.

 

[Opti]

So to summarise....

What one thinks hell is depends on which metaphor you take and how you interpret it.

Or for some it is whatever someone in religious authority has told them it is, and they have accepted without question.

 

[ebia]

Pretty much.

The New Testament is much more interested in what God is doing to put the world to rights than in what the alternative is for those who choose not to get involved in that.

 

[aiki]

For all you Bible literalists out there:

I experience pain as a physical human because my human body has pain receptors. If when I die and go to hell (and if your belief is correct then that is indeed where I am going), will your loving God be outfitting my soul with spiritual pain receptors (and teeth to gnash) such that I never miss even the briefest agonising sensation of his righteously created fires of eternal torment?

Taking some things in the Scriptures as literal does not mean one is an utter literalist who makes no distinction whatsoever in the Bible between what is symbolic and what is not. Believing the Bible teaches that there is a literal, eternal Hell awaiting those who refuse God's gracious gift of salvation does not mean one necessarily takes all of the rest of Scripture as absolutely literal.

As to your questions about the mechanics of eternal punishment I can say only that the Bible doesn't say. How exactly one will be able to suffer eternally the torment of Hell is not explained by God.

Peace to you.