Feminist vs. Femininity

[desmalia]

Hmmm.

The only thing you said there, that I take exception to is,



Not because I don't believe in submission, but because I don't think it's defined as servitude.

Now, I will admit that my viewpoint is warped because of past abuse, and bad manly examples set by father, step-father(s), and ex-husband(s).

Further discussion on my part will have to wait--I'll be gone for the day. Looking forward to exploring the topic.

Well true enough it certainly doesn't always equate to servitude. But what's at the core of this whole thing is the heart attitude. The willingness to be a servant and to give selflessly, even at great cost to one's self. I mean that is what we are called to as followers of Christ anyway. The core attitude of feminism goes directly against this, and that is why it is such a problem.

I do understand how coming from a troubled past would make this a touchy subject and maybe one that takes longer for some to work through than others.

I came from a home with a believing mother and gnostic father. My mother became a believer when I was very little. She matured into a submissive wife (which did not in the least bit squelch her overflowing creativity and colorful personality). Many would suggest that she did not need to submit to my father's authority because he was an unbeliever. And in any circumstance where he told her to do something sinful, they would be right. But that was not the norm. And in all other circumstances, she submitted to him and supported his headship in the home. It's a powerful testimony, if you ask me. (BTW God honoured her for that, and will also in heaven. Dad became a believer a few years before he died.)

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

(BTW God honoured her for that, and will also in heaven. Dad became a believer a few years before he died.)

Oh, that IS a powerful testimony! Praise the Lord!

As I was gone today I meditated on the issue and came up with:

Many people of both sexes confuse the submission of the wife to the husband, with the sumbission of all women to all men. While I certainly am not arguing against wifely submission in marriage, I don't want to go back to the days when women could not vote or own property.

In times past, women never reached legal majority, where they became responsible for themselves and could make their own decisions. If she were 30 or 40 years old and not married, she was still under the parental authority of her father; barring him, the next of adult male kin. The practice of "giving away the bride" came from the concept that a female is under the ownership, if you will, of her father, and he is now selling her to her husband who will have equally the amount of authority that Papa had. He could discipline her in any way he chose, including corporal punishment. I doubt any *reasonable* person preaching submission today actually has this setup in mind.

A woman should be allowed to work at the career of her choice, not just the traditional female roles of teacher, seamstress, waitress, nurse or secretary. She should receive the same pay for doing the same work, be measured by the same criteria, and have the same opportunities for advancement. She should not be subject to sexual harassment, but then again, neither should men. There should be laws in place protecting her from violence in her own home, as should there be for men as well. Equal is equal, and fair is fair.

In this way a woman can remain godly and still choose not to submit to a husband-- simply by remaining unmarried. She is only required to submit to her *husband,* not to everybody with a Y chromosome.

But I've heard even modern-day preachers say that women should not be in managerial positions. "How can she lord it over men all day, and then come home and submit to her husband the way she's supposed to?" Ugh. And I have seen churches forbid all women not only to preach, but to lead the singing. Some are not even allowed to say grace at the table if a man or a teenage boy is present.

How many people agree that this is not what God intended?

 

[desmalia]

Oh, that IS a powerful testimony! Praise the Lord!

As I was gone today I meditated on the issue and came up with:

Many people of both sexes confuse the submission of the wife to the husband, with the sumbission of all women to all men. While I certainly am not arguing against wifely submission in marriage, I don't want to go back to the days when women could not vote or own property.

Fair enough. Though I don't think we're in much danger of that in the western world! lol

In times past, women never reached legal majority, where they became responsible for themselves and could make their own decisions. If she were 30 or 40 years old and not married, she was still under the parental authority of her father; barring him, the next of adult male kin.

True. But it's important to note there were benifits to the women there as well. The men were responsible to look out for them. There was a support system in place. Yes I agree it is good that women have more options now. But we've gained that at the expense of the support system. Men are no longer obligated to help us out. I imagine there are at least a few single mom's out there who would appreciate more help from family and community.

The practice of "giving away the bride" came from the concept that a female is under the ownership, if you will, of her father, and he is now selling her to her husband who will have equally the amount of authority that Papa had. He could discipline her in any way he chose, including corporal punishment. I doubt any *reasonable* person preaching submission today actually has this setup in mind.

And I'm sure this is one of the reasons used for the start of women's lib to begin with. The things is, even in a society where that kind of thing is considered acceptable, it is still not Biblical. That means that any man who actually wants to serve and obey Christ would love and respect his wife as co-heir in the Kingdom. You see, it's not just that the Bible doesn't support that kind of "ownership" attitude, it actually frees us from it.

A woman should be allowed to work at the career of her choice, not just the traditional female roles of teacher, seamstress, waitress, nurse or secretary.

Like I said, I am glad we have more options these days. I'd make a lousy teacher or nurse or secretary for that matter! lol. But I really believe women are spending way too much time focusing on our "right" to these jobs instead of doing what God called us to do. That's especially true for women who have children to take care of. There are higher callings than a successful career. It's way too much of a focus these days.

She should receive the same pay for doing the same work, be measured by the same criteria, and have the same opportunities for advancement.

Depends on the job. For instance, the Fire department (at least in Canada, I assume this is true in the US as well) has established two different sets of standards for new firefighters. One for women, and one for men. I have a problem with this. When someone needs to be rescued from a burning building, the strongest, most capable fighters (which are usually men, let's face it) should be there. Yes some women can pass the tests that are created for the men. And in that case I say it's great. But the standard should not have been dropped in order to be "equal opportunity".

Yes, there are many jobs, especially management positions, that women can do as well as men, and the pay should be the same. Absolutely. But there are jobs men can do better than women, and jobs women can do better than men. Equal value does not mean we're identical. We should be embracing our differences, not covering over them with politically correct philosophies.

She should not be subject to sexual harassment, but then again, neither should men. There should be laws in place protecting her from violence in her own home, as should there be for men as well. Equal is equal, and fair is fair.

Totally agree.

In this way a woman can remain godly and still choose not to submit to a husband-- simply by remaining unmarried. She is only required to submit to her *husband,* not to everybody with a Y chromosome.

Yes, I get what you're saying, and agree for the most part. However we should remember that the Bible tells us all to submit to our leadership, especially in the church. And we should always honour our father and mother. So there is still submission, though it takes on a different character than in a marriage relationship.

But I've heard even modern-day preachers say that women should not be in managerial positions. "How can she lord it over men all day, and then come home and submit to her husband the way she's supposed to?" Ugh. And I have seen churches forbid all women not only to preach, but to lead the singing. Some are not even allowed to say grace at the table if a man or a teenage boy is present.

How many people agree that this is not what God intended?

Yep, some people go overboard. The Bible doesn't say anything about women in management outside of the church. Government and military are different. And women can and should hold leadership positions in the church - just in the places God has designed for us. But again, you're talking about abuses and twisting of the Scriptures. So I understand why these issues are a concern. I'm sure we've all seen or lived these situations where these ideals are not lived out as Scripture tells us they should be. That doesn't mean we should stop trying to get it right.

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

I think we're arriving at the same destination via different routes.

 

[cCensor]

You've got some good points here, though I would not go so far as to blame only Adam for the fall. Eve knew she was not to eat from the tree. In fact she may have even added in a little legalism (ie. "not even touch it"). Maybe that was a communication issue between her and Adam, or maybe she added that for her own reasons. We don't know. But we do know that she was aware she was not to eat from that tree. Satan knew that if he went after Eve's weakness, he could use her against Adam. He was easily influinced by her, even to do something he knew was wrong. That is still true of man today. Woman is man's weakness. It's interesting to consider this verse:
6When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate.

"she gave to her husband with her". This strongly suggests that Adam was right there watching what happened, and failed to take on the leadership role and do the right thing. He didn't stand up and take charge of the situation. And ever since, we've seen women usurping men's roles, and men sitting by silently and allowing it. Bottom line, we each need to take the responsibility to live the roles God designed us for.


Wise words.

I read through all your responses to the post. I can die now. There is a women left in the world that knows God and respect His word.
As for Adam and Fault, I would give him all the responsibility for the fall of man kind.
Why. God had place Adam in charge of the garden and Eve. God did not give Eve the same thinking that Adam had. Adams brain was mainly using the left side of the Brain and Eve the Right. God knew that and so must have devil. As a women she talked herself into sinning and we do not know for sure if Adam was really there at the time. Your not a man, but being a man I can see what happened. Adam found out what Eve did and His heart broke. If he had been stronger he could have gone to God and ask for Eves life, BUT I can see it now as I look down into her eyes that pulled me to her lips and remembering how long I lived in loneliness and told my self I would rather die with her then to live without her.

I can not blame Adam for bowing to Eve, because most men would have done the same thing. Remember God made both and knew what would happen. (I don't blame God.)

Women still have a problem with rights and wrongs. And since women have taken over the schooling for boys we have a generation of males who are not men. Women are still the same, but real men are hard to fine.
As a man it makes me ill to talk to Males, but I love to talk to women. If women only knew that if they tell a man the they RESPECT HIM, He will do every thing to prove it.

With all my respect and love Censor

 

[lullabelle]

Great article Mira!

Sadly, the line between male and female is being blurred, we have a mindset that different equals less valuable or less important. There are enough men on the planet, we do not need all of the women to become men too.
Women, especially Christian women, should embrace the femininity that God has blessed them with. Likewise men should embrace the masculinity that God has blessed us with.

Great post, and I totally agree with you! I love being a feminine woman. I see my femininity as a gift from God. In fact, I just love being a woman, being naturally feminine, being the way God intended me to be. I wouldn't want it any other way!

 

[lullabelle]

Just wish more men would stand up and be the men God intended them to be. But I believe things are slowly starting to change in this area; men are now waking up and realizing what has happened to them. In many countries men have been feminised. Their thinking is weak, unsure and confused. They don't know how to be men anymore, and many don't think they have permission to be men anymore! (Well they can be men, so long as they are not strong men!) But this is the work of the enemy and Christians need to take the lead in taking back their natural gender roles and living the way God intended them to live, not the way the world dictates or their ego wants it. The role of men has been disrespected and undermined in the West for far too long and we are reaping the results of this in our society - total confusion. Suicide has risen amongst men in the West - many believe this is because of the growing lack of a sense of role, identity or purpose amongst men. Many no longer feel valued. But thank God things are beginning to change in the churches, preachers are preaching about the roles of men and women more. I believe the Holy Spirit is speaking to the Body of Christ about these things, and I believe He is trying to correct the errors in the church concerning gender roles. We truly lack wisdom concerning this subject and we need to ask the Lord for His wisdom and not let pride and ego rule what we believe or do. God created men to be men......real men. And a real man is a strong man.

 

[lullabelle]

A portion of the blame for a breakdown in gender identities is the willingness of believers to compromise. We are more concerned with being politically correct than to preserve fundamental principles of God. The following verse is an example...

Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.
1 Peter 3:7

Society has made it insanely incorrect to state or imply that a woman is weaker. Yet god's word not only identifies this God given trait, but qualifies it. God means that a man is not better than a woman rather, she is different in nature.

Yet Christians seem to embrace society's wisdom instead of God's. Even more, I am willing to express as a man, that men do not take responsibility for being a strong vessel.

I agree!

 

[lullabelle]

My contention is we allow compromise. We let the world influence our demeanor. Instead, men should be Godly and expect other men to be Godly. Men should not accept other men to view women as sexual exploits or goals. We men should work together to insure that our daughters remain pure for their future husbands. It should be the man that says "NO" to prenuptial sex.

The representation or shadow of the Church is a virtuous pure and virgin bride for the groom. It is our responsibility that we shadow the Church. The man is the head of the woman as Christ is the head of the Church. Men should take responsibility in society to see to it that our daughters remain pure.

Likewise it is the woman's responsibility to submit to the husband as the Church submits to Christ. This is not a macho thing. This is not about dominance. This is not about the man being better than the woman. Often the woman is better than the man. Rather, this is about respecting and shadowing the image of Christ. Its about shadowing the image of the Church. And the woman decides how to do this. Just as we, The Church, respect the way we honor Christ.

Very wise words!