Female "pastors"

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Strong in Him

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Colabomb said:
Why do you appeal to one of Paul's teachings, yet ignore another?

Paul simply said that he had been called to take the Gospel to the gentiles. The church - all Jews - didn't argue that God wouldn't call in this way, they listened to him, prayed about it, saw what God was doing and accepted him.

I've read nothing that convinces me that Paul's comments about women in his letter to Timothy, written to an invidual in a certain situation, applied to all the churches, because if they did so he would have repeated them in his letters to those churches. I've read nothing that says that these few remarks were a command from God to be obeyed for all time, Jesus didn't say anything about the future leadership of the church, and order the disciples to keep women out.

Bottom line - if God hasn't called me, I'm deluded, (but then so are all of our congregations and ministers.). He is doing nothing to rescue me from this delusion or protect those I am, presumably, leading astray. I stand up to preach in God's name, and say that he has called me, but he's happy to let me do that. I pray, ask him to reveal his will and try to be open to what he is saying. He replies by giving me inspiration for sermons, some of which help people, giving me his strength to speak and lead and allowing me to pass all my training. You think he does all this even though he disapproves and doesn't want me to preach? I thought once I was being called to be a school teacher. But it didn't work out and I had no peace until I left. Why am I still here if it's not what God wants?

If God's not bothered, I might as well carry on!
 
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Colabomb

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Strong in Him said:
Paul simply said that he had been called to take the Gospel to the gentiles. The church - all Jews - didn't argue that God wouldn't call in this way, they listened to him, prayed about it, saw what God was doing and accepted him.

I've read nothing that convinces me that Paul's comments about women in his letter to Timothy, written to an invidual in a certain situation, applied to all the churches, because if they did so he would have repeated them in his letters to those churches. I've read nothing that says that these few remarks were a command from God to be obeyed for all time, Jesus didn't say anything about the future leadership of the church, and order the disciples to keep women out.

Bottom line - if God hasn't called me, I'm deluded, (but then so are all of our congregations and ministers.). He is doing nothing to rescue me from this delusion or protect those I am, presumably, leading astray. I stand up to preach in God's name, and say that he has called me, but he's happy to let me do that. I pray, ask him to reveal his will and try to be open to what he is saying. He replies by giving me inspiration for sermons, some of which help people, giving me his strength to speak and lead and allowing me to pass all my training. You think he does all this even though he disapproves and doesn't want me to preach? I thought once I was being called to be a school teacher. But it didn't work out and I had no peace until I left. Why am I still here if it's not what God wants?

If God's not bothered, I might as well carry on!
Hey, I might as well give in and keep lying. God hasn't zapped me yet.

The attitude of "God hasn't stopped me, therefore He must approve" is very illogical.

God allows all kinds of things He is against.

Sin in general.
 
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Colabomb

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Anij said:
I'm sorry you feel that way , and truly hope and pray in time that you will open your heart enough to see the truth.

God Calls people, individuals - and feeling called, and knowing you are being called is something beyond explaination. It's not something that is made up in ones head ( if that were the case IMHO it would be equally so for men, since it's just as easy to say that men "make up" being called ~ which I don't believe is the case for a minute).


I do pray in time you'll be able to step back and see this with new eyes ...
I have been on your side of the fence.

I am sorry you feel this way about me. But I will answer to God, not man, therefore I will remain orthodox.
 
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Strong in Him

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Colabomb said:
Because His Scriptures say that Women are not to be Priests, therefore, God, who Inspired the Scriptures will not break His own Rule.

Can I have a reference for the verse that says "I, the Lord, command that no woman, at any time, shall be priested, minister, preach, pastor or lead in the church. This command is not to be broken, no matter what." These exact words please, not a Scripture that you think means roughly the same thing.

And while you're at it, a verse that says that some gifts of the Spirit are only for men.
 
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Anij

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Colabomb said:
I have been on your side of the fence.

I am sorry you feel this way about me. But I will answer to God, not man, therefore I will remain orthodox.
One this we will agree ...
I answer to God alone ~ God knows my heart, and I am his humble servant.

on the rest we'll choose to politely disagree.
 
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Colabomb

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Strong in Him said:
Can I have a reference for the verse that says "I, the Lord, command that no woman, at any time, shall be priested, minister, preach, pastor or lead in the church. This command is not to be broken, no matter what." These exact words please, not a Scripture that you think means roughly the same thing.

And while you're at it, a verse that says that some gifts of the Spirit are only for men.


Show me a verse that says "Women can be priests cause there's no difference between men and women." Not a passage you think means roughly the same thing.

BTW, I never claimed that the Gifts of the Holy Spirit were only for men. DO NOT put words in my mouth.
 
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Strong in Him

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Colabomb said:
Hey, I might as well give in and keep lying. God hasn't zapped me yet.

You're not lying, therefore you have not sinned and are unlikely to be "zapped". You are totally sincere in the way that you interpret Paul's words in his letter to Timothy. I don't know whethjer you are equally sincere in obeying some of his other words, but that's between you and God.

I am saying that many people don't accept that these verses mean for us today what they meant to the people to whom they were written; several commentators included. As a previous poster pointed out, if Scripture was absolutely clear on the role of women, there'd be nothing to misunderstand, but you no doubt think it is clear.
I am completely sincere when I say that God has called me, and has done nothing to correct or remove that calling. You say I am wrong, fine. I am a Christian woman who is preaching and serving God. If you say my call is not genuine, I am deluded, I am sinning because I am doing what I believe to be God's will, you are insulting me. You can if you must but you won't change my views, only God can do that.
 
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Colabomb said:
BTW, I never claimed that the Gifts of the Holy Spirit were only for men. DO NOT put words in my mouth.

I know, but that's what's implied by those who say women can't pastor, when Ephesians 4 says;

"It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be evangelists, some to be pastors." (verse 11)
 
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Colabomb

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Strong in Him said:
You're not lying, therefore you have not sinned and are unlikely to be "zapped". You are totally sincere in the way that you interpret Paul's words in his letter to Timothy. I don't know whethjer you are equally sincere in obeying some of his other words, but that's between you and God.

I am saying that many people don't accept that these verses mean for us today what they meant to the people to whom they were written; several commentators included. As a previous poster pointed out, if Scripture was absolutely clear on the role of women, there'd be nothing to misunderstand, but you no doubt think it is clear.
I am completely sincere when I say that God has called me, and has done nothing to correct or remove that calling. You say I am wrong, fine. I am a Christian woman who is preaching and serving God. If you say my call is not genuine, I am deluded, I am sinning because I am doing what I believe to be God's will, you are insulting me. You can if you must but you won't change my views, only God can do that.

You missed the point entirely.

To say "God has not stopped me from being a minister, therefore He must approve" is like saying "God did not stop people from becoming Atheists, therefore God Approves of Atheism."

It is an illogical assertion.

By the way. Understand it is not my intention to hurt you dear sister. I may use strong wording in discussing my faith, but it is not my intention to hurt.

While I believe you are wrong in your belief you are called, I have never insinuated that you are not a Christian, or that you were lying. I simply believe you are wrong.
 
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Colabomb said:
Ma'am with All respect, have you never heard of the discernment Process?

You honestly believe I could go up to a bishop and get ordained in a week because I am a male?

Yes I've heard of it, and yes I know ordination takes time. But before 1992 in the anglican church, and still in the Catholic church, a woman saying she was called to the ministry wouldn't even have got, or get, past the first hurdle. The response would have been, and is, "we say he can't have because you're a woman". A man would have his call tested, by interview, prayer, examination. A woman had no chance. That's all I meant.
 
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Colabomb

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Strong in Him said:
Yes I've heard of it, and yes I know ordination takes time. But before 1992 in the anglican church, and still in the Catholic church, a woman saying she was called to the ministry wouldn't even have got, or get, past the first hurdle. The response would have been, and is, "we say he can't have because you're a woman". A man would have his call tested, by interview, prayer, examination. A woman had no chance. That's all I meant.
Okay then I must apologize for misunderstanding your point.

But those churches did not reject women due to sexism, but because the Scriptures and the Teaching of the Catholic Faith has been consistant.
 
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kamikat said:
Isn't possible that she is being called to pastor other women? When I used to go to a non-denom church, we had a "women's pastor". SHe led the women's ministry, women's bible studies and Sundays school classes, counseled individual women by appointment. I'm not very familar with Protestant churches. Is this not a common position? Would this techniquely not be a pastor?

kamikat

Women absolutely should teach and counsel other women. They should have Bible studies and prayer groups. I believe that the older women of a church should take it upon themselves to mentor the younger women. That's an extremely important role.

If I went to my pastor for counseling - his wife would be there (he'd never meet with a woman alone). She's been known to throw her 2cents worth in also - and her 2cents is worth a lot.

However, the pastor/elder/bishop (depending on your translation) is the head of an individual church and Scripture tells us that office is reserved for men.

Do I love that fact - not always, but I can live with it because it's God's decree.
 
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Colabomb said:
While I believe you are wrong in your belief you are called, I have never insinuated that you are not a Christian, or that you were lying. I simply believe you are wrong.

Yes I know, I'm sorry I didn't mean to imply that this was a personal thing. And to be honest, this thread is about women pastors and I have been arguing from my position as a non pastor, which maybe I shouldn't have done. But I do think the principle is the same. If Paul said that women should keep quiet and not be in authority over men, and people accept that to be literally true for the church today, this should apply to women in all roles - preachers, deaconesses, worship leaders. What about a woman reading the Bible lesson, that's speaking. What about the organist who dictates the speed or volume of a hymn, or a choir mistress who conducts the tenors and basses, tells them when to come in and may tell them off if they keep getting their part wrong? If these people don't let women do any of these things either, well, personally, I still think they are wrong, but at least they are consistent. But some allow some of these roles and yet quote this verse from 1 Timothy when it looks as if women are going too far. And I don't necessarily mean you, that was a general reflection.

Maybe we need a definition of "in authority over".
 
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bliz

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Colabomb & Co. -

Let's get a few things straight:

Women do not want to be men.
I'm sure that being a man is a wonderful thing, for a man, but women are not wishing that they had been born male. We like being women. We do not want to have a penis; we don't envy you yours. We do not aspire to be like men, or pass for men, or to emulate men. We are quite content to let men be men.

We do not hate men.
On the contrary, most of us love men - particular men or the lot of you in general. We have learned a great deal from them. We have taught them a great deal. We enjoy their company in all the appropriate and proper ways. We have given birth to boys and raised them to be men. Men are our sons and brothers and mentors and husbands and fathers....

Our desire is to please God and serve Him as we are called. We not not seeking power or authority or prestige. None of that is terribly motivating to women. We desire to do that which we should be doing; that which God calles us to.

I assume that the same is true for men. Why is it so hard to accept that this is what motivates women who believe God has called them to ministry, including the ministry of preaching and pastoring?

There is no desire to kick men out of positions of leadership and ministry.

We believe many men have been called by God to positions of leadership and ministry. We're happy that you are there. There is no desire to disenfranchise you. We also believe many women have been called to those positions and have been prohibited from serving as God calls.

Jesus told His disciples "Mary has chosen the better part and it will not be taken from her." What part had Mary chosen? She had chosen to sit at Jesus's feet and learn, a position and activity that heretofore had been reserved only for men. Many things changed with the birth and death of Jesus and women's place in the church the home and the world was one of them.

You believe that excluding women from the pastorate is "orthodox". Surprise! We believe that including women in the pastorate is "orthodox." You have no special claim on that description. You have no special powers to understand the Word of God. Men do not have the final authority on the meaning of Scripture and what verses mean. God's word has been given to us all. The Holy Spirit indwells all belivers, including the female ones.

You may stamp you feet and declare that women are not to be pastors as often and you like, but that does not make it so. Repeating it and repeating it and being rude to your elders, does not make it so. 2000 years of church history does not mean the church necesarily got it right; the church has gotten a great deal wrong over the years.

This issue is not going to be resolved on this side of heaven, and I doubt if we will care very much on the other side. But how we treat each other in the process will matter a great deal.
 
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Splayd

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It seems noone wants to address any of the points I've raised lately. :(

I'll try one more. Bear in mind that the church in NT was not a building or a once a week meeting. It was the body of believers and they met frequently and almost exclusively in people's homes. There wasn't one leader for each gathering, but several elders and deacons within the community. These weren't necessarily even the same ones that spoke when they gathered anyway. Rather - pretty much everyone spoke, but Paul brought some organisation to the gatherings so they would speak one at a time. All of the different gifts were exercised in the church according to their gifting and the Spirit. Now we know that there were several females with gifts of prophecy. Were they excluded from speaking at these gatherings? If so, where were they allowed to use that gift? The church doesn't stop being the church after the final hymn or when they step outside the building.
 
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Strong in Him said:
Bottom line - if God hasn't called me, I'm deluded, (but then so are all of our congregations and ministers.). He is doing nothing to rescue me from this delusion or protect those I am, presumably, leading astray. I stand up to preach in God's name, and say that he has called me, but he's happy to let me do that. I pray, ask him to reveal his will and try to be open to what he is saying. He replies by giving me inspiration for sermons, some of which help people, giving me his strength to speak and lead and allowing me to pass all my training. You think he does all this even though he disapproves and doesn't want me to preach? I thought once I was being called to be a school teacher. But it didn't work out and I had no peace until I left. Why am I still here if it's not what God wants?

Isn't that rather like saying because God didn't strike down Joseph Smith he really was a prophet? Or saying that God supported Adolf Hitler's government because he didn't stop it from coming into power?
The tricky thing about the gift of free will is that it often allows people enough rope to hang themselves with. If God was going to stop us from doing something wrong we'd never have to worry about decerning anything. If it was wrong it wouldn't work and if it was right it would. The logical end to this type of thinking would also include if you are a good person then good things should happen to you. Thus if you are experiencing trials or suffering you did something wrong. That's simply not how things work.
 
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OnTheWay

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bliz said:
Let us not forget that Mary had something to do with the literal offering of the body and blood of Christ. Strange that a woman should be so integral to the original presentation of Christ's body and blood, but exempt from further presentations.

Once again, the priest is an icon of Christ. Christ was a man and so should be the priest.
Considering that many accuse the RCC and EOC of the worship of the Theotokos we have no issue with the honoring of women. However, Scripture and 2,000 years of Holy Tradition are clear on the matter.
 
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tall73

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Splayd said:
It seems noone wants to address any of the points I've raised lately. :(

I'll try one more. Bear in mind that the church in NT was not a building or a once a week meeting. It was the body of believers and they met frequently and almost exclusively in people's homes. There wasn't one leader for each gathering, but several elders and deacons within the community. These weren't necessarily even the same ones that spoke when they gathered anyway. Rather - pretty much everyone spoke, but Paul brought some organisation to the gatherings so they would speak one at a time. All of the different gifts were exercised in the church according to their gifting and the Spirit. Now we know that there were several females with gifts of prophecy. Were they excluded from speaking at these gatherings? If so, where were they allowed to use that gift? The church doesn't stop being the church after the final hymn or when they step outside the building.

There were both formal and informal services in some instances. In Jerusalem they met both in the temple and home to home.

Certainly some of these included very open meetings with all sharing a teaching or prophecy etc. as Paul speaks of in Corinth.

We also see Paul preaching to an audience in synagogues or even expressly Christian gatherings such as Acts 20:7

For me the larger issue is what role culture plays. I tend to believe that women should not hold authoritative positions though I think the Scriptures overwhelmingly show women active in ministry, preaching, teaching, prophesying etc.

Incidenally, elder is a position. Gifts are something different. Elders were appointed by men. Gifts are given by the Spirit.
 
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tall73

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The big issue is how we take Scriptural passages that are suspected to have cultural application.

As a loosely related example I want to look at the issue of headcoverings.

As we examine it, please ask yourself an honest question: What would Paul have to say to make it enduring, not just cultural?

Notice the arguments he makes.

1CO 11:3 Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. 5 And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head--it is just as though her head were shaved. 6 If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head. 7 A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. 8 For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; 9 neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. 10 For this reason, and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head.

1CO 11:11 In the Lord, however, woman is not independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. 12 For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman. But everything comes from God. 13 Judge for yourselves: Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? 14 Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him, 15 but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For long hair is given to her as a covering. 16 If anyone wants to be contentious about this, we have no other practice--nor do the churches of God.

a. starting in vs. 3- appeal to the story of the fall. He doubtless had in mind the account of the fall in which it said "her desire shall be fore her husband and he shall RULE over her). To Paul this was no cultural issue. It was a God given directive. And as was noted before, he is not giving his opinion, he is appealing to the established scripture of his day. (The old Testament WAS their Scripture).

b.Starting in vs 8, appeal to the initial creation order and roles. Woman was a helper for Adam. Again, Paul does not consider this as his opinion: This was BEFORE sin, so I see no reason to read in difficult cultural significance. Now after sin these natural roles were intensified because sin brings more division. Therefore there needs to be a definite authority, and one who is accountable to God for the family as a whole. He also mentions the angels. Now if anyone has further information on why angels seem to be blushing over uncovered heads, fill me in! It is a difficult passage. Perhaps it is just that they can't fathom getting rid of God's instructions out of preference or rebellion.

c. Starting in vs 11, A concession that they are interdependent...but that all comes from GOD...ie, who are you to argue with what God did? Do you not think he anticipated that they might give all kinds of reasons even in their own time? He is being careful to make appeals to established authorities that are free of connotations of their day.

d. Starting in vs. 13, an appeal to the natural order. (Now some might note that while he says the nature of things, that he has in mind the cultural idea that women have long hair. Obviously it is possible for men to have long hair in nature. But this essentially cultural argument is significant in that he puts it THIRD in the line of reasons, and clearly states that he is putting it in their terms....think for yourself...is it really done this way? It is not his main argument, but one that he is using as a reinforcement to his argument.

e. Starting in verse 16, appeal to authority. Finally he ends with an appeal to ecclesiastical authority which puts it beyond any doubt that it is not a matter of private interpretation. And he also assumes that there would be contention over it. Why? Well, I think that is obvious, even then it seemed like a controversial issue. Here he says it is this way in all the churches of God. Not just Paul's church. Why? Because they took the OT seriously, and it seemed a rather clear concept.

Paul is here basing this teaching off of the biblical council regarding roles in the family. These he sees outlined in Genesis, and he gives more details of his view in Ephesians 5. He indicates that the wife submits to the husband. But the husband submits to God. So this is not free rein there. And more than that the husband is to love the wife as Christ loves the church. So this is SACRIFICIAL love. And it is love that is directed by God. Essentially the man has a greater responsibility to look out for the interests of all in the family. He is directly accountable to God for them. Paul is in no way iin Ephesians giving the idea that men can just kick around their spouse.

Back to the passage in Corinthians...His main stress in the argument is that the head covering is a SIGN OF AUTHORITY for the woman.

Now, what does it all mean then? Quite possibly there were those who were not covering their head, which revealed a lack of respect, and perhaps indicated that they were ignoring the roles given in the family structure.

So now we have to ask, is there something here that Paul sees as enduring? I think there is. He felt this family structure was important. It also underlies his teaching that a woman would not hold authority over a man in the church, because this would set the biblical order on its head.

So then this means that women should be all covering their heads, right?

Maybe not. the cultural application of head covering may no longer be a big issue, because head covering is not a sign of AUTHORITY in our day and age . Paul says that in verse 9 that she ought to have a sign of authority on her head. He implies that the women were disregarding not just cultural norms, but the authority structure set in place by God. Now today, if we were to apply this, it might be overkill to have women cover their heads, because most in society wouldn't even get the reference, as they would then. So saying there is some cultural element is true. But the concept of authority, and of a hierarchy in the family is not a cultural issue, and he goes to great pains to ANTICIPATE arguments from people who thought it was just his opinion.

Of course the argument could be made (and was in GT before!) that in many countries it is still a symbol of submission. Not only that, but in America too I have noted that even those of Islamic faith who cover their heads are seen to be in submission. Our society tends to put it in a bad light (repression, etc.) but this is still clearly understood. So perhaps we have dismissed the custom too quickly.

Now in our modern culture, we often take great pains to escape the clear thrust of the Bible on the role of women. And this is often based on the idea of cultural interpretation. But the facts are that the enduring principles of different roles is a clear one in scripture. Paul also said don't let your mind be conformed to the pattern of this world. And I think many of us have been far too unwilling to take that to heart and resist cultural trends which undermine biblical realities.

Was Paul really conforming to the cultural trend of his day? The culture of Corinth was not necessarily putting women down. On the contrary, the women priestesses had prominent roles in fertility cult worships. Paul was not just enforcing a code that was accepted by most of Corinth. He was expressing a code from the OT that very will might have been in OPPOSITION to the dominant trend not only in the specific situation in that church, but perhaps the whole culture there.

Peter's text too on women making inward beauty the focus deals with submission. And again ,we seem to see a counter-culture element. The assumption was that the man would be impressed if the wife focused not on her own adornment, but on submission. In other words he would say "wow, this is a change...maybe these Christian folks have the right idea." Now that seems to me to say that Paul and Peter were dealing with cultures that did NOT promote submission in the same way as the Christian church did in response to the OT.

So again, what would Paul have to say before we believe that it was not cultural? In my opinion he put it as clearly as he could. He was fighting an unpopular teaching even in that day, which is clear from the numerous arguments from various angles that he presents.

Incidentally I have mentioned to my wife, (who happens to be Sophia7), that because head coverings are not longer a sign of submission that I am going to buy her a nice pin that says "I submit to my husband!" She said she would wear it, but somehow I haven't gotten up the nerve yet !


A futher note, I don't have any problem with women teaching etc. if it is understood that it is not an extension of authority which undermines the clear teaching of the Bible in regards to roles. Women can minister in many ways, and we see this even in those women who worked with Paul. Some were clearly prophets, others taught, etc. Even in this text women are seen as prophesying, though with their head covered.

The issue to me is whether they could hold roles of spiritual authority in the church, as this would set the established family structure on its head.
 
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Splayd

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Thanks tall73.
You are right to say there is a difference between gifts and positions. I agree entirely. My post was to address that very difference. Some here are arguing that women aren't allowed to teach or preach to men and yet scripture tells us otherwise.
There's a huge gulf between our culture and the culture of the day and too many of us suppose that we are doing everything the way they were then. A lot of us have a Pastor who looks after the administration and does the preaching, so when we read about "Bishops" in the NT we assume it is the same position, but in reality, the position in the NT isn't about preaching at all. To deny a woman the opportunity to preach or teach based on that assumption is erroneous.
Likewise it's a mistake to assume that women must remain silent whenever we gather, when clearly there are NT examples that indicate that women have shared in christian gatherings. We have to recognise that if we hold Paul's writings to be authentic and true that there's either some pretty clear contradictions that aren't addressed or there's more to it that many of us acknowledge.
In that post and this I'm not even going to try to address the leadership of the church, just the matter of women preaching and teaching, because that alone is a point of contention for some.
 
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