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Are those of you who are against female elders also opposed to women being ushers and acolytes? Not trying to start a debate, I'm genuinely curious.
in the words of a 1989 Synod convention resolution, "to avoid confusion regarding the office of the public ministry and to avoid giving offense to the church," only lay men assist in distributing the elements in the Lord's Supper.
So a lot of LCMS congregrations are going against Synod then...not cool.
Can I ask a question, why is it that women cannot assist in communion or other "pastoral duties"?
The reason I ask is because it seems strange to me that if it is because the office of pastor is strictly for males, why do they not consider other qualifications of pastors when it comes to communion. What if the elder was involved in a divorce that was deemed "unlawful" or other various expectations of who is qualified to fill the pastorate? What is it that distinguishes those qualifications from the qualification of gender.
Please do not take this as debating, I am just curious as to why there is such a distinction.
Pax
Are those of you who are against female elders also opposed to women being ushers and acolytes? Not trying to start a debate, I'm genuinely curious.
Female acolytes are fine IMO. Their only role in communion is moving some supplies from a holding area to the Pastor at the alter, they don't help actually distribute. To be a bit more technical perhaps, they handle the elements before the blessing and don't handle them again until the last person has taken communion. It's debatable when Christs body and blood become present and when it is no longer present, so they could then arguably be even further removed from assisting in communion.
Female acolytes are not a problem, IMO, but female ushers doesn't seem right and, come to think of it, I've never seen it. Go figure.
As for female lay readers, I'd rather they be articulate women (or confirmands) than men whose inability to read or speak clearly interrupts the message, but that's just me. I wasn't raised with women lay readers, but I never asked why. It just fell to the elders or congregation pres or vp then.
So what about female lay readers? Our LCMS does not allow female elders, but does have female lay readers for the OT and Epistle (but not Gospel). Do you see that as infringing on the pastor's duties in preaching the Word?
And as for the Real Presence of Christ's body and blood in the elements, we do know that they are present after the Verba and before reception, but we do not know that they are ever not present after the Eucharist, thus the elements should be handled reverently and reserved seperately from non-consecrated elements.
We need to keep in mind that the reading of the OT and Epistle readings were later additions to the liturgy. The pastor is charged with proclaming the Gospel, which includes the Gospel reading, the sermon, and the administration of the Sacraments (including Absolution). There really isn't a problem with women serving as lay readers.
Methinks thou are straining gnats at this point. Lay readers speaking the Word of God to the assembled believers is not authoritative, but women helping distribute the elements in communion is?
I highly recommend reading Authority Vested: A Story of Identity and Change in the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod. It frames a lot of Missouri Synod history as a power struggle which unfortunately it has been. The book claims that most of our problems are rooted in our misunderstandings of the office of holy ministry. Although it does try to push for women's ordination it is still a great book. The author brings up one question that I for the the life of me can't answer...if we are so literalistic about the few references about women being submissive, why do we have women teachers of religion? Personally I think that women elders are perfectly acceptable, and that Synod may be overstepping its bounds by saying both yes and no..
I can't think of any Scripture that says that elders must be male...
I'm NO scholar on the Confessions (haven't even read all of them) but is there something in the Lutheran Confessions that insists all elders must be male?
My LCMS congregation doesn't have elders. Male or female.
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I'm kinda confused by this....
I don't see READING the Scriptures as having "authority OVER men." Nor do I see helping to distribute the elements in the Eucharist.
Now, I suppose a case could be made that having a female organist or female soloist is, since a soloist is preaching the Word and/or preaching a sermon (albeit set to music) and an organist does have quite a bit of authority over singing (and thus worship). And I suppose a female organist or choirmaster who picks the hymns or choir selections has authority over men and is "preaching" in a sesne, but I don't think this is what Paul had in mind here. Perhaps we can take all this too far, or just apply it in ways Scripture never intended????
.
I can't think of any Scripture that says that elders must be male...
It would depend on how you define "elder".
In our contemporary use of "elder", you are right, there is no Scripture passage that states elders must be male. But the Scriptures are repleat with passages that state that those who carry out the functions of the pastoral office must be male. If the office of elder in a congregation is charged with carrying out or assisting with any function of the pastoral office, then only males can hold that office.
Is teaching the word a function op the pastoral office? When Grandma Kurtz teaches Sunday School, is she teaching the Word? When Johanna sings a beautiful solo of "Stilla Nacht" at the Christmas Eve service, is she teaching God's word?
While "teaching the word" is something the pastor does as part of his call, it is not exclusive to the pastoral office.
Singing a solo on Christmas Eve would not be considered "teaching" as much as a sharing of the Gospel, which all Christians are called to do.
So what is DISTINCTIVE to the Pastoral Office - something no nonordained person could ever do under any circumstances?
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Absolute? Nothing is distinctive to the pastoral office as you have presented it.
DaRev said:We need to keep in mind that the reading of the OT and Epistle readings were later additions to the liturgy. The pastor is charged with proclaming the Gospel, which includes the Gospel reading, the sermon, and the administration of the Sacraments (including Absolution). There really isn't a problem with women serving as lay readers.
Is there some kind of Biblical support for this statement? In the early church didn't the lector read all of these parts? In the very early church wasn't it simply the OT that was read since the NT canon had not yet been formed which was then replaced with the Epistle and Gospel readings?
Is there some kind of Biblical support for this statement? In the early church didn't the lector read all of these parts? In the very early church wasn't it simply the OT that was read since the NT canon had not yet been formed which was then replaced with the Epistle and Gospel readings?
I second that.
Yes I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran who hates the liturgy...enter laughter here, here, and here.I was talking about the liturgy. I suppose that the both of you would favor throwing out the liturgy?
DaRev said:I was talking about the liturgy. I suppose that the both of you would favor throwing out the liturgy?
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