Female Deacons

[classicalhero]

I think it does, in fact it mentions them first before men deacons.

YLT
1Ti 3:8 Ministrants--in like manner grave, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not given to filthy lucre,
1Ti 3:9 having the secret of the faith in a pure conscience,
1Ti 3:10 and let these also first be proved, then let them minister, being unblameable.
1Ti 3:11 Women--in like manner grave, not false accusers, vigilant, faithful in all things.

So both women and men deacons must be like the overseer.
There is a strong witness here that women were not being disqualified as deacons in Timothy's church either.

Also, in both the Tyndale and Geneva Bibles, the word diakonon is translated as minister, even when speaking of Phoebe. It is not until the KJV of 1611 where it is changed to servant in this verse referring to Phoebe.

As far as Phoebe goes, why would Paul go to the trouble of assuring the church in Rome of Phoebe's qualifications as a deacon and a leader in the church if her only service was to deliver his letter physically to someone else? There would have been no need for him to do that unless maybe....she was going to read the letter and answer their questions/teaching about what Paul was saying in that letter. They would need to know, from Paul himself, that she was qualified to do so. Whoever explained it would have needed to be Jewish, as well.

διάκονον (diakonon) — 2 Occurrences

Romans 15:8 N-AMS
GRK: γὰρ Χριστὸν διάκονον γεγενῆσθαι περιτομῆς
NAS: has become a servant to the circumcision
KJV: was a minister of the circumcision
INT: indeed Christ a servant has become of [the] circumcision

Romans 16:1 N-AFS
GRK: οὖσαν καὶ διάκονον τῆς ἐκκλησίας
NAS: Phoebe, who is a servant of the church
KJV: which is a servant of the church
INT: being also servant of the church

Rom 16:1 And I commend you to Phebe our sister--being a ministrant of the assembly that is in Cenchrea--
Rom 16:2 that ye may receive her in the Lord, as doth become saints, and may assist her in whatever matter she may have need of you--for she also became a leader of many, and of myself.

leader = protastis = what should we know about this word? The article at the link below......
https://www.ministrymagazine.org/archive/2013/04/phoebe-was-she-an-early-church-leader

Romans 13:4 uses the same word for the earthly authorities. Surely you aren't going to say that they are doing God's work in the church? Jesus said that the greatest among you are servants. This is exactly what Phoebe was doing in her church being a servant to God. Everyone should be mor like Phoebe, but she wasn't considered a leader in the church in fact the people Paul mentioned are just the regular members of the church who did great things for Paul while he was in need.

Only males were legally allowed to commit adultery through an additional marriage. Paul had no reason to state "a woman of only one husband" as that's all that could have existed.

Sexism as seen in this thread has no place in the body of Christ. I could list bible verses, do exegeses, discuss history, but I've found that men who are so interested in telling women what they are NOT supposed to be doing have little interest in the truth, just in power.

I have never heard a single man say, "brother, if your wife wants to do something during Monday night football, then you do what she wants to, because we are supposed to sacrifice ourselves for her." I have never seen a single man trying to discuss how they can "honor women, the (muscularly) weaker vessel". What a surprise!

Paul used that term specifically and if you don't want to adhere to it, then just don't claim to be a Christian. He certain made certain that women can't be leaders in the church like how they are the head of the family like the man is. Eve was created for Adam, not the other way round.

 

[Hank77]

~STAFF EDIT~
Yes, in language a word usually means what it means. In English, authority means authority, whether that authority is in reference to governments or the church. The context that it is being used in is determined by the information that describes it.
ie.
The Judges have authority over the courtroom procedures.
The Elders have authority over the church finances.

Thank you for adding to the definition of the word used to describe the leaders in the church and the word used by Paul to describe Phoebe.

 

[mikedsjr]

I have a question for those support Phoebe was more than a servant by how she served.

Do you understand syntax of the Greek language?

If I have learned anything from Dr James White is syntax matters in interpreting words in Greek. You don't just decide what you believe the word means. Syntax lets you know what it means. So in this Dr White would say the ESV/NASB in English says what the Greek says.

 

[Dialogist]

34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. - 1 Cor 14:34-35

An interpreter says that Paul is prohibiting chatter among women and that they should be obedient and listen. Valid point.

It was also a custom for men to speak and women to listen, but Paul didn't prohibit worship such as singing, praying, prophesying.

My apologies, he didn't specifically prohibit preaching from the pulpit, but many churches, including mine, hold on to that view. Not that I agree or disagree. I'm open minded and open to other interpretations. We don't know everything, and always discover new details.

We know from the ancient Church canons that there were deaconesses. But their role was to minister to the women members of the community, assisting in baptisms, helping the widows, etc., and not to preach.

 

[Avid]

there are Churches where only women are active, and the men (husbands, sons, etc.,) are no around or want nothing to do with Church. In such cases you will NEED the women to be doing things that are required. I expect they would be searching for a man to preach or they would be doing Bible Study together. The words of the Apostle Paul are typically ignored, sometimes by people who preach them, and profess to hold to them!

It is clear that we have experienced a feminization of many things as was described before. There has always been a need for women to do service in the Church, as in the family. Their help and work are vital. They should be just as intent on doing God's will as any. That means taking these verses very seriously about what roles they play, and who are the objects of their service.

 

[Bluelion]

We know from the ancient Church canons that there were deaconesses. But their role was to minister to the women members of the community, assisting in baptisms, helping the widows, etc., and not to preach.

Ok question why was a Woman Deborah appointed Judge? Now Judges were those God raised up from Israel to Lead Israel Back to Him and deliver them from the mess they found themselves in. Now I think all would agree a Judge is higher than any pastor, so why was it a woman held this position?

 

[mikedsjr]

Deborah wasn't a priest in the temple

 

[Bluelion]

Deborah wasn't a priest in the temple

No I said she was a Judge.

 

[mikedsjr]

No I said she was a Judge.

The priest was the "religious" leader and keeper of the Torah. They were never women in that role. This is the same style of role the pastor/priest is to be. They are the religious leader and the keeper of Scripture for the church.

 

[mikedsjr]

Unless you want to form militaries in churches, the judge has no equal in modern church. Israel was a nation and the judges were a form of ad hoc leader for the nation by God. The judge is nothing similar to a priest in how they served the people. But it does show women have a vital leadership role in communities beyond the walls of the religious body.

Roles. Roles seem to give people a stumbling block. Jesus has a clear role. One much more difficult to have than the other persons of the Trinity, yet no whining came from him despite God the Father always with the ultimate power role.

 

[mikedsjr]

Israel was not a church. It was a nation, with military, taxes(tithe to the temple/king), criminal laws with some giving death penalties.

 

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[Bluelion]

Israel is the children of God or body of Christ. It was to God children He made the promises.

 

[98cwitr]

In Galatians 3 (sorry if already mentioned, I havent read the whole thread), Paul says:

26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

if there is no "male or female"...then how can we then decide that what Paul says in 2 Timothy 2 is a rule for women specifically to be silent in church and for authority to be held over to men? And what authority? Is Christ not the Head? Either Paul contradicts himself, or he is speaking to specific incident.

If we are all "one in Christ" where is the distinction?

 

[Bluelion]

In Galatians 3 (sorry if already mentioned, I havent read the whole thread), Paul says:

26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

if there is no "male or female"...then how can we then decide that what Paul says in 2 Timothy 2 is a rule for women specifically to be silent in church and for authority to be held over to men? And what authority? Is Christ not the Head? Either Paul contradicts himself, or he is speaking to specific incident.

If we are all "one in Christ" where is the distinction?

98 we disagree about somethings but that is a great point.

 

[mikedsjr]

98, The Trinity is one. But there are 3 persons with absolute 3 distinct roles. The father doesn't do the Son's role, nor does the HS complain about being a helper role or not being the commander in chief as the Father is.

98, the issue is context. That's the key platform i stand on in this Christian forum. Context. Context. Context. Christians care more about eisegeting Scripture than context. This modern/postmodern world has affected the minds of Christians to be afraid to stand on Scripture context, though extreme eisegetical conservative Christians haven't helped either.

I have a response to bring context regarding the so called "called by God to be a Judge" Deborah. She was a judge, but never does it state she was called by God like the others. It is to play loose with Scripture to support her status as Judge as the right for woman pastors.

 

[98cwitr]

Im glad you mention context, because in the original context 1 Timothy 2:11-12, "woman" is the exact same word used for "wife," and man for "husband." Just some food for thought.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/γυνή

The body of Christ has many roles...an arm is not used to walk on, nor a leg to tie His sandals, but as Galatians is clear, a part of a Body is not identified as male nor female.

 

[Bluelion]

98, The Trinity is one. But there are 3 persons with absolute 3 distinct roles. The father doesn't do the Son's role, nor does the HS complain about being a helper role or not being the commander in chief as the Father is.

98, the issue is context. That's the key platform i stand on in this Christian forum. Context. Context. Context. Christians care more about eisegeting Scripture than context. This modern/postmodern world has affected the minds of Christians to be afraid to stand on Scripture context, though extreme eisegetical conservative Christians haven't helped either.

I have a response to bring context regarding the so called "called by God to be a Judge" Deborah. She was a judge, but never does it state she was called by God like the others. It is to play loose with Scripture to support her status as Judge as the right for woman pastors.

so your going to argue the Bible now? The son is equal in power and authority to The Father same with The Holy Spirit and them to each other, no part of the trinity is lower in rank. The Jews said only The Father can forgive sins, yet Jesus forgave sins. Your case does not hold water.

As far as the Judge Judges were appointed by God and yes it does say Deborah was appointed by God as were all Judges. You lack understanding of Judges.

 

[Bluelion]

Im glad you mention context, because in the original context 1 Timothy 2:11-12, "woman" is the exact same word used for "wife," and man for "husband." Just some food for thought.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/γυνή

The body of Christ has many roles...an arm is not used to walk on, nor a leg to tie His sandals, but as Galatians is clear, a part of a Body is not identified as male nor female.

So are you saying there is no role in the family? Because i believe the Bible does say the Man is the Head of the body of the family.

 

[98cwitr]

So are you saying there is no role in the family? Because i believe the Bible does say the Man is the Head of the body of the family.

No sir...saying just the opposite. That roles are clear based on a God-given gift or function within the Body. A brain is not a heart, they both are completely different, yet both vital for Life.

Which is more important? A brain or a heart? If one dies or no longer functions, who can live?

If God gives a woman the ability and blessing to speak His Word through her, via the Holy Spirit, which we all are told we are to possess once born again, should we not listen?

Does the Holy Spirit silence a woman simply because she is a woman?