felt embarrassed to be American

Tenebrae

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No, my issue is of a different nature entirely: I don't trust the government. I don't trust their competence to run such a thing without screwing it up. And I don't trust their good intentions. I see the push for socialized health care as part of a larger pattern of pushing for control over every aspect of our lives, and I don't like that pattern one bit. I would be a lot less nervous about it if I lived in a smaller country like New Zealand. Try as they might, their much smaller government (in absolute size, not as a percentage) isn't able to achieve the same levels of bureaucratic inertia that ours is capable of. And their PM has no delusions about being the leader of the world.

Perhaps it differs in a larger country, however as someone that has socialized health care, our government does not have a particulalry high level of control over our daily lives. I believe we have equal if not more freedoms than you do.

In terms of bureaucratic inertia, if our government stopped making favors for friends and got rid of even a third of the pointless bureaucrats it would free up millions of dollars a year.

I get your point about delusional leaders being scary, I do think that if its adhered to in its truest form possible socialized health care has lot to offer everyone, however like all ideology's when they are adapted by humans they generally end up being distorted into something unmanageable so while I dont think socialised healthcare should change the level of control a government has over its people, knowing peoples abilities to distort and change ideologies yea I can understand your nervousness
 
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Izdaari Eristikon

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Perhaps it differs in a larger country, however as someone that has socialized health care, our government does not have a particulalry high level of control over our daily lives. I believe we have equal if not more freedoms than you do.

In terms of bureaucratic inertia, if our government stopped making favors for friends and got rid of even a third of the pointless bureaucrats it would free up millions of dollars a year.

I get your point about delusional leaders being scary, I do think that if its adhered to in its truest form possible socialized health care has lot to offer everyone, however like all ideology's when they are adapted by humans they generally end up being distorted into something unmanageable so while I dont think socialised healthcare should change the level of control a government has over its people, knowing peoples abilities to distort and change ideologies yea I can understand your nervousness
Exactly. If we had a prospect of socialized health care being enacted by someone other than power-mad control freaks, I'd feel much better about it.
 
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Izdaari Eristikon

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Yes, you are over-generalizing.

I recently spent a couple of months working with central government folks, and I have never been in an environment with a higher concentration of young, smart, and overworked people... and I usually work on a university campus with young, smart, and overworked people.

There are doofuses in every human class and category. Based on my experience, I would say the percentage of doofuses might in fact be lower than average in central government.

That is not to say some government workers might not be rude, arrogant, and consumed with their own effluvia... but I've met store clerks who also fit that profile.

Population qualifications may also vary in district offices and in local government -- but in DC, your restaurant wait staff is likely to have graduated from GMU or John Hopkins with a JD and an MPA and just be waiting for a legislative post to open up just so they can have a shot at opening some dude's mail. For long hours. And minimal pay.

So.... I object.
The civil servants as individuals don't worry me too much. I think they're a pretty good bunch, taken one at a time. But the institutional imperatives and momentum of the agencies they work for, now that worries me. The elected officials, whose worldview I perceive as delusional, and who are collectively more corrupt than not, they worry me. And the lobbyists they answer to in order to be re-elected, they worry me. Nobody much is looking out for 'we the people' in all this.
 
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MattLangley

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Nobody much is looking out for 'we the people' in all this.

Sure they are and if they aren't it's our own fault since 'we' are supposed to be looking out for ourselves. We are the ones that elect everyone in power. It is our responsibility to either elect a person (or go for election ourselves) that either has interests that match our own (hence looking out for our interests) or that will be most likely to act along our interests.

If the current people in power aren't sufficient it is the fault of everyone who disagrees with them or they simply are the minority and then the majorities interests are the one being taken care of. If you are the majority and your interests aren't being acted on then it is your own fault, we can control those in power and even offer to be the ones in power. Too many people complain and argue about what politicians are doing yet are too lazy to get off their own a** and do something about it themselves. Those who act take the day and influence the results. We are fully within power to control our government (at least the majority is), so either face that you are not the majority (and a majority shouldn't have to submit to the minority opinion, that's closer to a dictatorship or monarchy) or face that you (and others of like mind) aren't doing enough.
 
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AzA

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America has always been run by lobbyists and interest groups. Can hardly get more of a unique subset of humankind than separatist Puritans.

In today's environment, some interests get more airtime and more resources than others -- but that, too, has always been the case. Who spoke for the indigenous Indians when the colonies were being carved up and incorporated?

You affirmed industrialism and innovation, so people were industrious and innovative. You affirmed rights and competition, so the innovative protected their rights and competed. Your representatives speak for you; you gave companies some benefits and responsibilities of personhood, and now wonder why they evolved a class of representatives to speak for them.

The America that exists today emerged from the values of its people and the action of those who have cared enough to participate. Whether they "care enough" because they are idealists, or they "care enough" because they and their children and their children's children stand to make a ton of money -- they care enough to jump in and push their voice above the melee.

A society run on competition doesn't value spectators. Y'all are discovering this now; what do you plan to do about it? Value shifts take time to filter through a system as dense as this. The longer you wait to participate, the longer things will stay the same.
 
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Im_A

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America has always been run by lobbyists and interest groups. Can hardly get more of a unique subset of humankind than separatist Puritans.

In today's environment, some interests get more airtime and more resources than others -- but that, too, has always been the case. Who spoke for the indigenous Indians when the colonies were being carved up and incorporated?

You affirmed industrialism and innovation, so people were industrious and innovative. You affirmed rights and competition, so the innovative protected their rights and competed. Your representatives speak for you; you gave companies some benefits and responsibilities of personhood, and now wonder why they evolved a class of representatives to speak for them.

The America that exists today emerged from the values of its people and the action of those who have cared enough to participate. Whether they "care enough" because they are idealists, or they "care enough" because they and their children and their children's children stand to make a ton of money -- they care enough to jump in and push their voice above the melee.

A society run on competition doesn't value spectators. Y'all are discovering this now; what do you plan to do about it? Value shifts take time to filter through a system as dense as this. The longer you wait to participate, the longer things will stay the same.

Its not so simply for the people to fix things...unless I'm misunderstanding you. When we have a 2 party system that can be linked to the problems we are seeing now. I support a free-market in vain of Jefferson[go to my quote]...that doesn't mean I support the things that can be argued that threw our economy into one of the worst recessions in 26 years and right now its not getting any better.

I ask you what can we do to fix the problem as a people? Do you think the people can fix a 9.5 percent unemployment rate(that's the last I heard it)? Do you think the people can fix a market that can be predicted to crash roughly every 20 years? Do you think the people did the right thing by voting in a president who has who knows how many times multiplied the already large debt to where now even our grandchildren won't be able to pay it off? (Yes I voted for Obama but I take back my vote but that doesn't make me "better". Not simply because of things going on now but I do not hold the fiscal views him or the Democratic party hold. I am not convinced that Obama is a fair representation of the Democratic party of the USA, but I won't go as far as to call him a socialist either, I'm not sure yet simply because when we had the Great Depression, we had a democrat who got the same accusation so I want to see what happens but I'm fiscally conservative but socially liberal...that's not Obama...sorry for my sidenote, that's the first time I said somehow that I take back my vote).Do you think the people can fix the problems we see for example, with a government system that put in a bill at 3am, the Cap and Trade bill, a 300 page bill that the House didn't have ample time to really read to the fullest, and then the bill was obviously passed, was it that shocking that it got passed? What can we do to change this?

We vote for our representatives on impersonal terms. Do they fit pro-choice agendas? Do they fit pro-life agendas? Do they fit pro-homosexual marriage/civil unions agendas? Are they against that? Are they conservative? Are they liberal? Are they pro-war in the country we're at war with whenever the elections are going on? Are they against it? Important stuff but impersonal ideas that show nothing to how the government is going to be ran by these individuals, but what choice do we have? My hope is to see the 3rd parties come to power. Then like others and yourself admit, we are ran by lobbyists and interest groups. No one can tell me that our current president who proposes as the savior of America doesn't have lobbyists and interest groups that are benefiting from his polices...especially when he came from Chicago politics. The people don't even get to vote for Surpreme Court judges. The president does that and that's based on the constitution. Assuming that the people have complete power to change by voting in a new president with new political agendas, and thus the vote being the vote of the people to appoint supreme justices, but I did not want someone who is known to normally judges towards the minority into the Surpreme Court because that's not fair justice, just as judging for the majority isn't fair justice.

Should the list go on to how much the people have a tease form of power in our country?

I don't blame our current administration by any means. Yet I am not convinced that our way of governing is the way our forefathers intended to do it. I would sure love know how to change our government is supposedly I have some type of "power"/"influence" to change the nation I live in, which I honestly do not believe I have, or that anyone here has, or that the majority of people don't have. We get our electoral process time of voting but that is it, and as we have seen for so long now, what things are fixed? I would like to know how one can truly and realistically believe the people have some type of power in our government, in our nation...because that seems more closer to our constitution. Until then, I am an extreme skeptic and criticizer of how our nation's major underlining fact, "the power of the people" is illustrated out in our modern times.
 
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SallyNow

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Yes, most of those are awful, but these two...

"Ask people in countries with socialized medicine, and they will tell you how horrible it is."

"Socialized medicine rations health care too much."

...are valid arguments if true, and I think there is something to them. People from Canada, the UK and Sweden do often complain about their health care systems, and the problems most often mentioned are long waits and rationing.


And this one...

But I'm afraid that while you'll see complaining from Canada, it's usually nothing compared to what's happening in America, even though it's presented as being "widespread". Usually it's only widespread in that a newspaper was able to find 3 people who had to wait a few weeks to get a CAT scan after being in a minor fender-bender that x-rays and ultrasounds showed to be harmless. IMO the 'rationing' arguement is usually used by people with unidentified minor back pain (often after an accident) who are told to go to a physical therapist but want a full-on body MRI before even trying PT. The wait times issue is, again, usually people with minor problems who want specialized care ASAP, who have had full blood work-ups and such and have been found to have nothing, but who still want to see every specialist possible. There are isolated cases of people not seeing specialists and it turning out to be something more than minor, but those are isolated tragedies that could happen anywhere.

We complain, but if you look closely at the complaints, they are usually kinda shallow and whiny, and not based on medical fact. All in all, people do recieve care that's of a good or better quality under socialized medical care.
 
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AzA

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Guys -- I respect your personal philosophies and commitments and am not interested in arguing them with you.

My point only addresses ownership. When people own their country and its governance from their local neighborhood all the way up to the closeted central folks in their capital city, the level of individual engagement and investment across the board is remarkable. When instead people throw up their hands and say "It's not our problem, it's not our fault, it's not our responsibility; they're screwing up everything; oh boy," everything stays in the hands of those who have claimed ownership, assumed the right to chart the course, and moved ahead. Doesn't sound like independence to me.

Voting is a tiny part of governance in a democracy; the larger part is design and execution. One of the merits of the American system is that the work of maintaining order is distributed across the three branches and over several levels; the national spirit is at work in a small city council, in a corporation business meeting, and in the day-to-day runnings of a local clinic, as much as in Congress during a Floor debate.

I know it's increasingly popular to think some dark-spirited elite cadre is running everything and so nothing of significance can be done by an ordinary person, but such a belief only limits one's sense of what is possible and well within one's capacity.

Sad thing is that if you insist you have no power, you'll never exercise any, and then you'll really have none. You'll instead have an oligarchy that will never speak for you because it doesn't hear from you and so cannot be affected by the perspective that you bring or the skills that you have.

If you don't participate, by working with your local leaders to solve local problems, or by communicating with your state reps and state agencies on state business, or by contributing to national interest and educational groups that publicize and act on matters you care about -- if you just stand aside and look, your values will never filter. If you don't learn about the local and national and international issues driving policy, and never communicate in conversation, by letter, or through objective articles with members of your community, and you don't build person-to-person relationships with people who are in leadership positions, and you don't pitch in when something needs to be done, you will always be peripheral to the people designing and executing policy.

My point remains that spectators don't get to play. We might now have an increasingly noisy and shrill audience, but the strategists have no need to take them seriously because their attention is so short, and their engagement in the activity of governing only seems to last until the next political affair. When strategists hear from people who have researched carefully and committed their own time and resources to programs and initiatives that work, and formed alliances to get it done better, quicker, and smarter, they pay attention. When values drive action, and action produces results, that makes a difference.

What are the needs where you live? Who else cares about them? What relationships are weak? What services need improving? What can you all do together to address them? Must you think inside the box? Pick an issue. Research it. Identify a finite problem. Find allies who care as much as you do. Develop a plan to address it. Commit time and energy and thought to it. Present the plan to structures that could help. Play your part in carrying it out. Evaluate the project, and share your results with other communities. That's democracy; it takes time and a high personal investment, and I can't think of anybody who doesn't respect it when they see it.
 
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Im_A

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Guys -- I respect your personal philosophies and commitments and am not interested in arguing them with you.

My point only addresses ownership. When people own their country and its governance from their local neighborhood all the way up to the closeted central folks in their capital city, the level of individual engagement and investment across the board is remarkable. When instead people throw up their hands and say "It's not our problem, it's not our fault, it's not our responsibility; they're screwing up everything; oh boy," everything stays in the hands of those who have claimed ownership, assumed the right to chart the course, and moved ahead. Doesn't sound like independence to me.

Voting is a tiny part of governance in a democracy; the larger part is design and execution. One of the merits of the American system is that the work of maintaining order is distributed across the three branches and over several levels; the national spirit is at work in a small city council, in a corporation business meeting, and in the day-to-day runnings of a local clinic, as much as in Congress during a Floor debate.

I know it's increasingly popular to think some dark-spirited elite cadre is running everything and so nothing of significance can be done by an ordinary person, but such a belief only limits one's sense of what is possible and well within one's capacity.

Sad thing is that if you insist you have no power, you'll never exercise any, and then you'll really have none. You'll instead have an oligarchy that will never speak for you because it doesn't hear from you and so cannot be affected by the perspective that you bring or the skills that you have.

If you don't participate, by working with your local leaders to solve local problems, or by communicating with your state reps and state agencies on state business, or by contributing to national interest and educational groups that publicize and act on matters you care about -- if you just stand aside and look, your values will never filter. If you don't learn about the local and national and international issues driving policy, and never communicate in conversation, by letter, or through objective articles with members of your community, and you don't build person-to-person relationships with people who are in leadership positions, and you don't pitch in when something needs to be done, you will always be peripheral to the people designing and executing policy.

My point remains that spectators don't get to play. We might now have an increasingly noisy and shrill audience, but the strategists have no need to take them seriously because their attention is so short, and their engagement in the activity of governing only seems to last until the next political affair. When strategists hear from people who have researched carefully and committed their own time and resources to programs and initiatives that work, and formed alliances to get it done better, quicker, and smarter, they pay attention. When values drive action, and action produces results, that makes a difference.

What are the needs where you live? Who else cares about them? What relationships are weak? What services need improving? What can you all do together to address them? Must you think inside the box? Pick an issue. Research it. Identify a finite problem. Find allies who care as much as you do. Develop a plan to address it. Commit time and energy and thought to it. Present the plan to structures that could help. Play your part in carrying it out. Evaluate the project, and share your results with other communities. That's democracy; it takes time and a high personal investment, and I can't think of anybody who doesn't respect it when they see it.

Please know AzA, I know my own post came across strong, but it wasn't in an attempt to debate or argue with you. It is partly because I agree with you but as a citizen who is getting a bit more angry at what is going on in the country I live in mixed in with the fact that I did help vote the man and the administration in that now I am not happy with whatsoever, I do feel helpless.

My old political nausea is coming back. I live in a country that says we the people have some type of power, but I would love to know how to actually illustrate my so called power beyond merely voting. I take some of the blame because as a young person, I have moved around a lot and never got settled into an area of this country to where I can try to make a difference, and try to illustrate this idea that the people actually do have some power beyond some act of voting.

I am critical by nature or so it seems. I want information right now to gain a better grounding on my own views and that's my process of getting active, as well as finding groups that I find myself politically aligned currently and finding ways to become active.

In the meantime, I'll admit, I'm both critical, opinionated, loud mouthed or so it seems anymore, frustrated at myself for being a young person who only cared about himself instead of the world around him for so many years that I lost possible opportunities to get involved.

So again, I am sorry for coming off strong, and I will try to do better in the future. :) It was not meant to be directed at you personally or even however you view politics.
 
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