"Fed court orders RI school to remove prayer mural"

[DaisyDay]

So apparently there is nowhere outside the SC chambers that doesn't violate the establishment clause.

Oh, wait. There's a mural on the SC building that violates this interpretation.

You left out the other scholars of various religions - this mural is inclusive of all, whereas the school banner was excluded all non-Christians.

Also, that's a frieze, not a mural.

 

[Woden84]

So? A human being put it there.

A human being who was acting as a representative of the US government. The US government does not have freedom of speech. Those people can post whatever the hell they want on their own time in their own property. They do not get to shove their religion down others throats while acting as a representative of the US government on government property.

So apparently there is nowhere outside the SC chambers that doesn't violate the establishment clause.

Oh, wait. There's a mural on the SC building that violates this interpretation.

That is part of a mural about early works of law. The ten commandments are up there along with Hammurabi's Code and others. If the school had a mural that demonstrated prayers from various different religions, then that would've been fine and perfectly acceptable to have in relations to a Social Studies class. Instead they had one very obviously Christian prayer promoting Christianity.

Go ahead and point out all the constant comments made by atheists like the ones found on this high school girl's twitter page. Yes HIGH SCHOOL GIRL RECEIVING REAL LIFE THREATS FROM CHRISTIANS and you are trying to find a way to defend the behavior? Her address was posted online!

Religion once again has brought out the worst in people.

Don't you know? It doesn't actually matter what you do or how heinous it is so long as you do it for Jesus.

Edit:

I seem to have remembered wrong, it doesn't actually have Hammurabi's Code, it has Hammurabi himself. Anyway Snopes has a nice informing article about this:

http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/capital.asp

I like how the writing visible on the tablet that Moses holds was apparently specifically choosen because they were not religious. Commandments 6-10

 

[Paul1965]

I think such a mural should be kept out of a public school. Private religious school sound ok to display such a mural.

 

[AlexBP]

A human being who was acting as a representative of the US government.

Do you even know which human being put this mural up? Do you have any reason to believe they were acting as a representative of the US government? Public schools are generally run by local governments, and the First Amendment of the Constitution acts to restrict only Congress, not local governments.

The US government does not have freedom of speech. Those people can post whatever the hell they want on their own time in their own property. They do not get to shove their religion down others throats while acting as a representative of the US government on government property.

If a public employees physically pried open a student's throat and forcibly pushed any material, religious or otherwise, down said throat, I will condemn that action fully. But placing material on a wall is obviously quite different from shoving it down a throat.

 

[Wolseley]

A human being who was acting as a representative of the US government. The US government does not have freedom of speech. Those people can post whatever the hell they want on their own time in their own property. They do not get to shove their religion down others throats while acting as a representative of the US government on government property.

My, my. Touched a nerve, did we?

It'll be all right, honest. Nobody ever dropped dead from being exposed to Christianity---it's not like high doses of radiation, or the Maralinga strain of Ebola Zaire.

Relax, have a beer. Have several, if it'll help.

 

[DaisyDay]

My, my. Touched a nerve, did we?

It'll be all right, honest. Nobody ever dropped dead from being exposed to Christianity---it's not like high doses of radiation, or the Maralinga strain of Ebola Zaire.

Relax, have a beer. Have several, if it'll help.

Ad hom; ridiculing him for making an argument is easier than countering it.

 

[Self Improvement]

My, my. Touched a nerve, did we?

It'll be all right, honest. Nobody ever dropped dead from being exposed to Christianity---it's not like high doses of radiation, or the Maralinga strain of Ebola Zaire.

Relax, have a beer. Have several, if it'll help.

The problem is people have died from being exposed to Christianity.

 

[Nabobalis]

Can't complain, the constitution says what it says.

Might have to tweet my support.

 

[Harpuia]

I'm not a fan of it, but I love watching right-wing Christians squirm and get uncomfortable. So I'm kind of torn.

 

[heymikey80]

You left out the other scholars of various religions - this mural is inclusive of all,

So if they added more murals in RI?

whereas the school banner was excluded all non-Christians.

Cite its exclusivity.

Also, that's a frieze, not a mural.

Fine. There's a mural including Moses inside chambers, and a relief on the doors.

 

[Wolseley]

The problem is people have died from being exposed to Christianity.

I know, I've seen it happen----guy opened up a Bible to one of Paul's epistles and flashed it at another guy on a subway one time; there was a burst of purplish-white light, and the poor victim turned black, charred to a crisp, then slowly dissolved into a puddle of sticky foul-smelling goo.

The perp got away with it because first off, the cops didn't believe the witnesses' stories, and secondly, they could never find an identifiable body.

Dangerous, dangerous stuff, that Christianity. Worse than exposure to raw plutonium.

 

[heymikey80]

A human being who was acting as a representative of the US government.

Really. You interviewed him? You know the origin of the painting & prayer?

It amazes me the reach of people.

But it also intrigues me, how old would something need to be before relenting that this kind of enforcement has damaged freedom with revisionism?

"And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle." -- G. Washington, while President of the United States.

The US government does not have freedom of speech.

All people do. The Constitution does not prohibit the free exercise of religion. The SC has curtailed that free exercise, but it's written into the Constitution.

 

[Cute Tink]

The Constitution does not prohibit the free exercise of religion.

Not on individuals. The government is prohibited from "respecting an establishment of religion". The Federal Court rightly ruled that the State of Rhode Island and all parts thereof are equally forbidden to respect and establishment of religion by way of the 14th Amendment. Sorry, but you are free to exercise your religion all you want, but a government institution doesn't get to.

Frankly, I would argue that this was a violation of Rhode Island's own constitution, section 3.

The State of Rhode Island General Laws

Section 3. Freedom of religion. -- Whereas Almighty God hath created the mind free; and all attempts to influence it by temporal punishments or burdens, or by civil incapacitations, tend to beget habits of hypocrisy and meanness; and whereas a principal object of our venerable ancestors, in their migration to this country and their settlement of this state, was, as they expressed it, to hold forth a lively experiment that a flourishing civil state may stand and be best maintained with full liberty in religious concernments; we, therefore, declare that no person shall be compelled to frequent or to support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatever, except in fulfillment of such person's voluntary contract; nor enforced, restrained, molested, or burdened in body or goods; nor disqualified from holding any office; nor otherwise suffer on account of such person's religious belief; and that every person shall be free to worship God according to the dictates of such person's conscience, and to profess and by argument to maintain such person's opinion in matters of religion; and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect the civil capacity of any person.

But there is more history behind the federal rules against this and it was easier to argue with all the case law behind it.

Those of you against this decision: Why do you want a failing institution (the US education system), which has a track record of being bad at educating students, to be teaching your kids about Christianity? Aren't you worried they will be very, very bad at it? If you want your kids taught about Jesus and the Bible, why not take your kids to church? Also, if you can push your Bible into public schools, can we force your churches to teach math and science?

 

[wanderingone]

Really. You interviewed him? You know the origin of the painting & prayer?

It's not a painting, it's a banner, the story in the OP is pretty limited on detail. So while I might sympathetic regarding the removal of a large piece of artwork - simply because of the cost and the potential loss of a historical bit of art this is a BANNER, it can be removed by taking it down, it's artistic and historical value is questionable but it can still be saved. It's very clearly labeled "School Prayer" which makes it appear to be a message OF the school and not an individual artist or writer.

IF the pic doesn't show it's here

Prayer Banner

Oh and the banner is from the early 60's and according to the article I linked it was written by a 7th grader -there's history most of the kids and teachers in that school probably didn't even know until Jessica protested the presence of the banner.

 

[heymikey80]

Nice link. It points out that the author of the prayer was a child in the school at the time.

So school children don't have freedom of religious speech.

Thanks for the link, again!

 

[Cute Tink]

Nice link. It points out that the author of the prayer was a child in the school at the time.

So school children don't have freedom of religious speech.

Thanks for the link, again!

School children do. The school has no right to post it in an official manner even implying endorsement of it's contents. If you would quit trying (rather desperately) to change the characterization of this action, you might understand this.

 

[heymikey80]

School children do. The school has no right to post it in an official manner even implying endorsement of it's contents. If you would quit trying (rather desperately) to change the characterization of this action, you might understand this.

As the article pointed out, it was written by a student.

Ah, so now we're ignoring the motivation of the student complaining. "I’m an Atheist, and I don’t believe in the Heavenly Father, so I shouldn’t have to look at it." No, she doesn't have a right to be free of religious speech. That's the whole point.


I know what my immediate response would be if I went there.

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The problem confronting the current litmus tests is of course that suppression of religious speech is antithetical to the right to freedom of religious speech. The student and indeed many adults are misled into thinking that if they must suppress religious speech, they must suppress religious speech among everyone.

I've had enough of students talking about this situation in their schools. And I've had enough of it at work, too.

 

[keith99]

And when teh blayks had their own schools!

(might want to read up on post hoc ergo propter hoc)

Actually more to the point back when little effort was made to keep students, especially those not academically inclined in school.

If you test all students (which be definition means those in school) where one sample includes 95% of all kids in the age group and the other contains 25% and where those near the bottom are more apt to be excluded, it is not a valid comparison.

Not to say that explains everything, but it does explain a good part. (and secondary effect explain a fair part also).

 

[wanderingone]

Nice link. It points out that the author of the prayer was a child in the school at the time.

So school children don't have freedom of religious speech.

Thanks for the link, again!

Yeah.. I saw that leap coming when I posted it...

The banner is not the work of the student, the prayer may supposedly have been penned by the 7th grader but it's a banner titled "school prayer" it's not exhibited as children's art or personal expression -

A school could certainly take items like the banner along with other things from the schools past and make it part of part of an exhibit - maybe of previous students ideas, or things from different eras of the school.. and they'd probably be just fine, but they aren't exhibiting it that way. School's don't have the right to freedom of expression.

 

[Cute Tink]

As the article pointed out, it was written by a student.

And very, very likely, would not have been posted had it not been for its content.

Ah, so now we're ignoring the motivation of the student complaining. "I’m an Atheist, and I don’t believe in the Heavenly Father, so I shouldn’t have to look at it." No, she doesn't have a right to be free of religious speech. That's the whole point.

Cop out. The school has no right to promote one religion over all others. Trying to put forth that it's the "freedom from religion" tripe is nothing more than an attempt to avoid the issue.

I know what my immediate response would be if I went there.

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I am so glad that my Heavenly Father really loves T Shirts from Zazzle.com

And if you were a school official, then you would be rightly stopped from doing so. If you want to do so as a private citizen, feel free. That's the point of the Bill of Rights in the first place.