Fear of eternal torment

variant said:

I don't think rediscovering the proper intentions of the document 2000 years later and magically having it line up with modern morality is going to cut it with my BS detector.

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Fair enough. But then again I'm not concerned at all with modern morality. Christ said "love your neighbor as yourself" and that's enough for me.

NZEN said:

I would like to know how people, especially those who doubt hell, cope with the possibility of a place of eternal torment believed in by so many.

Certain depictions of hell are quite frightening, but I find reading certain books can make the fear go as fast as it came, if not faster.

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Most people don't technically cope, simply because they don't seriously believe it, mostly because they can't conceptualize it (who really can?). All the people who have wrestled with the difficulty of eternity have either watered Hell down to a dingy grey city (as idealized by C.S. Lewis in The Great Divorce), or abandoned the idea of eternity entirely, either for annihilationism (where the evil are snuffed out of existence), or (what is becoming more widespread) the idea that Hell is purgative and very short-lived for the sake of God reconciling all to himself (universalism).

Of course, there are a few who literally believe an everlasting fire that burns up evil sinners. They tend to be the self-assertive, arrogant types that ironically would consider themselves condemned to Hell if they took a look in the mirror, rather than hold to the crippled Christianity that entails believing, "I said this prayer forty years ago, so I'm of the elect, I give five dollars a month, therefore I've proven a salvation I can't lose."

There's only been one person I knew who took the doctrine of everlasting punishment via a literal lake of fire seriously. He expressed enormous depression and anxiety over whether or not he was saved, even to the point of causing his marriage significant harm. Not surprising: this is the reasonable psychological state of anyone who takes such a terrible doctrine seriously and has the least bit of humility for clarity in considering himself a possible candidate for these fires.

Why should be afraid of Hell?You can easily take the other path, because Jesus came to ease it up for us. We only have to truly believe in him from our heart,that he is the only saviour and love him from the heart,and confess while sinning and try not to repeat the sins again and you'll get to heaven.It's not a hard work , believe me.And of course you will always sin,but as long as you confess from your heart, it will be forgiven for you,even if you confess 7 times a day (but from your heart) and try everytime to turn away from your sins.But if you can love Jesus from your heart,you'll do at least some effort in trying not to sin everytime so you can improve.

And no matter what people believe, hell exists because Jesus said so!

NZEN said:

I love the way you express your certainty that Hell is not where you will go after death. My question was asking how you reach this level of certainty.

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Are you frightened of being captured by Sauron and tortured? Are you? How do you deal with that thought? I assume you have no fear about this whatsoever, but what causes you to have no fear?

When you understand this, you'll understand my lack of fear.

For example, I read somewhere that someone was digging a hole and breached the gates of hell, and heard screamy noises.

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Fiction. Fiction. Fiction. It's just a story someone made up to scare people. It's no more real than Mordor.

It's no more real than these gems:



Where is the evidence that there is any place on Earth where people can hear screams from "Hell"? Does it even make sense in Christian theology that Hell is actually inside of the magma filled depths of the Earth? Did NASA astronauts find Heaven above the skydome?

Considering how many people believe in Hell is also unsettling, and at times disturbing.

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Millions of people believe in reincarnation. Focus on that. The numbers of believers don't mean anything.

I realize that the beliefs of other people, especially when they seem to be in the majority, can have a kind of psychological pressure, almost like peer pressure. It's difficult to tell the majority that they indulging in fantasy. It's difficult to stand up to the king and tell him that he has no clothes. But that is what you must do. You need to assert your own judgment, and see that the numbers of believers don't mean anything unless they are very rational people and have a great deal of evidence to back up their case. Do they?

If you had grown up in India, you would have been surrounded by people who believe in reincarnation, and you'd be experiencing the same problem.

Even if their belief is wrong, this is bad (It's bad if it's true and it's bad if they're wrong). The thing is, it's a big gamble.

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Sauron, Dark Lord, Halls of Lamentation, Mordor. Where is the gamble?

Then, this inner peace was shaken by fear of eternal suffering. Hence, me this seeking reassurance.

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I understand, but what is happening is that ancient mind games have been played on you. You should be angry. Even better, you should laugh at the joke, and enjoy stories of Hell just as you might enjoy a good horror movie.

You should focus on the vast array of beliefs, even about hell. Christians can't even agree on what Hell is! Some believe that it is "the grave" -- God simply chooses not to grant eternal life, so it is equivalent to an "atheist's death". Some believe that it is merely a state of mind, i.e., one is in "hell" in this life if one is suffering. Some think it is just "separation from God" in the afterlife.

And focus on how many different afterlife beliefs there are outside of hell. Are they all, seen together, a "big" gamble?

They are stories. Fiction. The boogeyman. Ghost stories told around a campfire, and taken a bit too seriously. Focus on that.


eudaimonia,

Mark

GA777 said:

And no matter what people believe, hell exists because Jesus said so!

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What a solid, convincing and totally airtight argument..

Received said:

Most people don't technically cope, simply because they don't seriously believe it, mostly because they can't conceptualize it (who really can?). All the people who have wrestled with the difficulty of eternity have either watered Hell down to a dingy grey city (as idealized by C.S. Lewis in The Great Divorce), or abandoned the idea of eternity entirely, either for annihilationism (where the evil are snuffed out of existence), or (what is becoming more widespread) the idea that Hell is purgative and very short-lived for the sake of God reconciling all to himself (universalism).

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This.

Even when I believed in an eternal hell I never really thought my non-christian friends were in serious danger of hell.

EDIT: Nevermind, I've just realized my post didn't even answer the question.

I'd like to know how people who doubt that if you have green eyes then after you die, aliens will transfer your consciousness into a robot body and force you into slave labor in the mines of Omicron Percies 8 for the next ten thousand years cope with it.

It's ridiculous and there's no reason to believe it's true. Just like the many different hells. Some hells (like the Mormon one) aren't even that bad.

Eudiamonist said:

Are you frightened of being captured by Sauron and tortured? Are you? How do you deal with that thought? I assume you have no fear about this whatsoever, but what causes you to have no fear?

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I hope you don't mind me bringing this up, but I remember on another thread you wrote:

Eudiamonist said:

Atheists aren't offended by the concept of going to hell. They are offended that Christians think that they will go to hell.

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What's the difference?

Notedstrangeperson said:

What's the difference?

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Atheists aren't offended by the concept of going to hell because they don't believe in hell. However, when other people view you as hellbound and let you know that this is how they see you, it matters because they believe in hell. It's becomes a social issue.

I guess it is a bit like the experience of some in highschool. Let's say that you were a "nerd" in high school, and the in-crowd makes it clear that you just aren't one of them and aren't as good as they are (which they get to define as "socially inclined"). You are defective in their eyes.

Now, it may be that you see nothing wrong with being a "nerd". You may like who you are. However... the social rejection and judgment passed by others will nevertheless be felt as offensive, and even oppressive. This is human nature.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Eudiamonist said:

Atheists aren't offended by the concept of going to hell because they don't believe in hell. However, when other people view you as hellbound and let you know that this is how they see you, it matters because they believe in hell. It's becomes a social issue

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We should only be worried about another person's opinion if their opinions have any validity.

We might, for example, hate being stereotyped because stereotypes have a grain of truth in them. Black people tend to have lower IQs than other races. A lot of Christians are anti-science. Men commit more sex crimes than women. Therefore when a black person is judged as being dumb, men are judged as rapists and Christians are thought to be stuck in the Dark Ages, they aren't offended because they don't like the idea, they're offended because unfortunately many of these stereotypes are (partly) true. Sad but true.

It's illogical to say we have no fear of hell because it doesn't exist, then get offended when someone says "That's where you're going."

Notedstrangeperson said:

We should only be worried about another person's opinion if their opinions have any validity.

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I agree. We should. As in: this would be desirable, and something to strive for.

However, that is far too easily said. If we were like Spock from Star Trek, the invalid opinions of others would never touch us on an emotional level. Likewise if we were Buddhas, or Stoic sages, or the fictional John Galt, or some other highly realized master of a spiritual discipline.

Alas, most people who find themselves in a similar situation are not capable of such heights of rational virtue. We are human beings, and for most people that means that the invalid opinions of others can be felt as offensive. This might not be ideal, but it is a fact for many.

It's illogical to say we have no fear of hell because it doesn't exist, then get offended when someone says "That's where you're going."

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There is no contradiction in that. Self-judgment is something quite different from experiencing the judgment of others.

Emotionally, it's a different situation regardless of how the logic works out. The feeling of offense is a psychological reaction, not a logical conclusion.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Notedstrangeperson said:

It's illogical to say we have no fear of hell because it doesn't exist, then get offended when someone says "That's where you're going."

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Say you’re a black person who feels they are equal to white people and you live around a lot of white people who feel otherwise.

Should you not be offended because the beliefs of the people around you are untrue?

Believing others are hell bound is a way of diminishing them the believer’s mind, it like prejudiced racism is offensive specifically because it is untrue.

variant said:

Say you’re a black person who feels they are equal to white people and you live around a lot of white people who feel otherwise.

Should you not be offended because the beliefs of the people around you are untrue?

Believing others are hell bound is a way of diminishing them the believer’s mind, it like prejudiced racism is offensive specifically because it is untrue.

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(Sorry 'bout the late reply)

To use your example, a black person may be offended that whites do not consider him equal - perhaps they think he's more violent and less intelligent than they are. Sadly though, statistically black people are more incarcerated far more often than whites and other races, and their IQ score is fairly low. Steroetypes don't jump out of thin air, their based on generalisations.

Even if our hypothetical black man is not violent and stupid, he knows he will be lumped with all the black men who are violent and stupid because they happen to be the same race. As I said, we find stereotypes and cliches offensive because they have a grain fo truth to them.

The same wouldn't go for ideas which (we think) have no basis in truth whatsoever.

Eudiamonist said:

Emotionally, it's a different situation regardless of how the logic works out. The feeling of offense is a psychological reaction, not a logical conclusion.

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So basically you're offended by the idea that Christians automatically assume you're a bad person because you're an atheist; that's fine. But as you mentioned earlier, would you be as offended if someone said you were going to be captured and tortured by the dark lord Sauron?

I'm not saying that to be sarcastic, it's just that atheists seem more annoyed by the idea that they are going to hell than they are by the idea that they're going to suffer at the hands of Sauron - despite the fact they consider them equally fictional.

Notedstrangeperson said:

a grain fo truth to them.

The same wouldn't go for ideas which (we think) have no basis in truth whatsoever.

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While an interesting thought, I think you are overlooking that he is being insulted, he's being called stupid and violent.
Taking offence to that means he is admitting something of it is true? what utter nonsense.

If someone were too call my mother a prostitute I would be offended, I am sure as heck not saying there is a grain of truth to that statement by being offended.

Exiledoomsayer said:

Taking offence to that means he is admitting something of it is true? what utter nonsense.

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No, it's the other way around: being offended doesn't the stereotype true - the fact that the stereotype is true is what makes it offensive.

We don't object to cliches because they're false, we object because they're generalisations. This is why even positive stereotypes are annoying - not all chinese people have great maths skills, not all women think babies are cute, and not all black people are good at sports.

Notedstrangeperson said:

No, it's the other way around: being offended doesn't the stereotype true - the fact that the stereotype is true is what makes it offensive.

We don't object to cliches because they're false, we object because they're generalisations. This is why even positive stereotypes are annoying - not all chinese people have great maths skills, not all women think babies are cute, and not all black people are good at sports.

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Fine I'll restate it.

The black man takes offense to being called violent and stupid because it is true? What utter nonsense.
I take offense to such an insult about my mother because it is true? Ditto.

Exiledoomsayer said:

The black man takes offense to being called violent and stupid because it is true? What utter nonsense.

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As I said, we object to stereotypes because they are generalisations, not because they are untrue. Statistically black people are more likely to be incarcerated (particularly for violence and drug-related offenses) and have a lower average IQ than other races, regardless of country.

Our hyopthetical black man is offended because he has been lumped with all the low-lifes and thugs because of his appearence. He was, as they say, judged by the colour of his skin rather than his character. That don't change the fact that black people (in general) are likely to be more violent and less intelligent than other races.

It went back to a question I asked Eudiamonist: why is something offensive if it's not true?

Notedstrangeperson said:

As I said, we object to stereotypes because they are generalisations, not because they are untrue. Statistically black people are more likely to be incarcerated (particularly for violence and drug-related offenses) and have a lower average IQ than other races, regardless of country.

Our hyopthetical black man is offended because he has been lumped with all the low-lifes and thugs because of his appearence. He was, as they say, judged by the colour of his skin rather than his character. That don't change the fact that black people (in general) are likely to be more violent and less intelligent than other races.

It went back to a question I asked Eudiamonist: why is something offensive if it's not true?

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What do you think would happen if, for example, black people gained dominance in most societies, and the whites were left to the ghettos and substandard education for generations?

NZEN said:

I would like to know how people, especially those who doubt hell, cope with the possibility of a place of eternal torment believed in by so many.

Certain depictions of hell are quite frightening, but I find reading certain books can make the fear go as fast as it came, if not faster.

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why dont you think on the poor people of Somalia and send some money to them or the people who are lonely, or in prison, or prisoners of alcohol, drugs or suffering.

Try to help them and forget about yourself and about your journey to hell. Forget that and do good things...