It is a view that originated in medieval times and persists today. Therefore it is a medieval view. It is a view that should be discarded but some people are unwilling to do that.
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CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
Fear of eternal torment
- Thread starter NZEN
- Start date
Or if they are held by large groups, such as angry lynch mobs. I guess by your standards black people shouldn't have worried about other people's opionins since the idea that they should be killed for looking at white Christian women isn't valid. Or gay people shouldn't worry that some Christian groups believe they should be killed because that idea has no validity. Or witches shouldn't have worried about the idea that they should be drowned or burned at the stake because that idea isn't valid either.
People who understand history are smart enough to know where these sorts of exclusionary absolute us-versus-them beliefs can lead.
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EvanDW
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If anyone here has ever wondered why atheists go through the trouble of challenging religion, I think this sums it up beautifully. There are a great number of politicians and fringe lunatics with a significant amount of political power who, if allowed, would happily implement dire consequences for us atheists. President George Bush Sr. for example, was once quoted as saying that atheists should not be considered citizens because America is one nation under God. I think the man needs to read the US Constitution a bit more thoroughly.
Even though we may consider the truth value of the religious majority's opinions to be in doubt, that majority can still affect our lives with those beliefs. The problem is that even though atheists and the nonreligious now outnumber Jews (who are a significant voting bloc), we do not have a central figure or galvanizing force to unite us... no unifying scripture, ritual, dogma, none of that. The only thing many of us have in common is a lack of belief in a deity. It's much more difficult to unite atheists under a common banner than , say, Christians, who can rally around the figures of God and Jesus, in spite of their denominational differences. It's far easier to unify people under what they DO believe than under what they do not.
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This is still "us versus them" mentality.
Should I not believe something just because you tell me not to?
How can I even do that? How can I not believe something that I believe is true? I won't kill you because you do't believe it, and I expect you to allow me to believe without disturbance.
Aside from that, the first amendment says that the free exercise of religion should not be prevented, and no official government religion shall be installed.
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EvanDW
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No, I'm arguing that it is religion, monotheism in particular, that fosters the destructive "us versus them" mentality. You won't find many stories of people being killed in the name of atheism. Religion, on the other hand, has quite a bit of blood on its hands due to the mentality it creates, the exact kind you describe. In essence, you've got that completely backwards. It's the "us versus them" mentality that I'm against.
Nobody is TELLING you not to believe. That would be arrogant and ineffective. You can't convince someone of your point of view by just telling them it's true. You need to PERSUADE them with logic and reason. I'm not COMMANDING you not to believe. I'm illustrating why it makes sense not to. There is a world of difference. I'm not going to come to your home or church and tell you your point of view is wrong. I wish I could say the same for adherents of your religion that constantly pester me at my doorstep. But on a public forum, your beliefs are open to criticism and debate.
Honestly, I find it a bit ironic that you accuse me of this when it is exactly what the religious do. The religious do not use logic and reason to convince you to join their religion, but instead tell you that God COMMANDS you to believe... or else... Tell you what, atheists will probably leave religion alone the day the religious learn to mind their own business, stop self-righteously browbeating the rest of us, and quit attempting to force their beliefs on the rest of us through politics.
I'm aware of what the First Amendment says, but there are many in power who would try to trample on the Constitution by wedging religious dogma into our legislature, affecting the lives of those of us who want no part of it. No atheist I know wants to make Christianity illegal; that's absurd. Instead, we just point out the things about the religion that contradict science, logic, and modern sensibility. Logic and reason are the only weapons we have to fight back against religion overstepping its boundaries into legislation.
The original topic of this post was a question about how a nonbeliever overcomes the fear of hellfire. I answered that question by pointing out what I perceive to be the flaws in Christianity that convince me to dismiss altogether the notion of an eternal hell.
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