Fear and the Christian Message

[juvenissun]

I did not imply that instilling fear in and beating children was a good thing. I do not think that it is. Do you?

It depends on how you do it. It is an art. Absolutely no beating is not good.

 

[juvenissun]

Well, if that´s a good analogy to support your view, I guess you and I have vastly different opinions about the benefits and damages coming from fear of your parents.

Of course, there are different degrees and different effects. But the nature is the same. Fear is one of the basic nature of children, as well as of humans. No fear is a lie, it is not healthy, not beneficial and not good.

 

[Standing_Ultraviolet]

You can not learn and fear at the same time, this is because fear is a defensive reaction when you lack learning. If you really want your children to fear for goodness sake then don't blame them when they turn evil.

In fairness to the OP, I don't think that she's really talking about fear, as in the visceral and absolutely soul shattering emotion where you're unable to absorb much meaningful information. It's closer to anxiety, which refers to something that's not immediate and/or not certain. You can still learn when you're anxious about something, at least unless the anxiety is unusually extreme (although making your children anxious when they're around you is pretty messed up, too).

The issue with "learning" when you're anxious is that you're just absorbing the information. You're not able to weigh it rationally in any way, shape, or form. That might be fine when you're in a situation where you're definitely in danger or where only one option out of many is safe and the safe option is obvious, but if the chance of danger seriously needs to be evaluated (or if the one safe route is one that you have to be able to pick out of several possible candidates), then anxiety can put you at more risk. It can make you accept things that are patently irrational.

It's inappropriate when applied to something like Christianity because you have to be able to actually analyze, rationally, what the risks and rewards associated with belief or non-belief are and the likelihood of each of those happening. Anxiety overplays risks and their likelihood.

 

[estadalamoo]

In fairness to the OP, I don't think that she's really talking about fear, as in the visceral and absolutely soul shattering emotion where you're unable to absorb much meaningful information. It's closer to anxiety, which refers to something that's not immediate and/or not certain. You can still learn when you're anxious about something, at least unless the anxiety is unusually extreme (although making your children anxious when they're around you is pretty messed up, too).

The issue with "learning" when you're anxious is that you're just absorbing the information. You're not able to weigh it rationally in any way, shape, or form. That might be fine when you're in a situation where you're definitely in danger or where only one option out of many is safe and the safe option is obvious, but if the chance of danger seriously needs to be evaluated (or if the one safe route is one that you have to be able to pick out of several possible candidates), then anxiety can put you at more risk. It can make you accept things that are patently irrational.

It's inappropriate when applied to something like Christianity because you have to be able to actually analyze, rationally, what the risks and rewards associated with belief or non-belief are and the likelihood of each of those happening. Anxiety overplays risks and their likelihood.

Are you suggesting that Gods "fear" (Spiritual fear) is different from normal human fear (Physical fear)

 

[Davian]

It depends on how you do it. It is an art. Absolutely no beating is not good.

And should these beatings should continue into adulthood? Do you feel that you would benefit from a good beating? If it were done artfully, of course.

 

[Catherineanne]

OK. Then try this: Father-child relationship. Father loves child. Child... FEAR/love father. You do know how a child will become if he has no fear to his parents.
It is a good analogy to God-human relationship.

I am afraid parenting has rather moved on from that kind of thinking.

A relationship where a child fears its father is a dysfunctional relationship. Ditto for God:human relationships. Respect, certainly. Fear, not so much. And fortunately for me, the Bible concurs;

The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.

http://biblehub.com/psalms/111-10.htm

Kindly note, fear is the beginning, but it is not the end. A relationship with God as our loving Father is the end; a Father who gathers us to him as a hen gathers her chicks. A Father whose perfect love casts out all fear.

 

[Catherineanne]

I'm not speaking to the OP, rather to your statement.

I see no reason why a person can't fear and learn at the same time. Are you saying you can't imagine any circumstances where a person experiences fear and learns at the same time ?

Fear triggers an involuntary adrenaline rush, which will disconnect cognitive abilities to some extent and trigger impulses of fight or flight. It is not sensible to suggest that a person experiencing such an adrenaline rush can learn anything other than to be afraid of whatever is making them afraid. Chances are they won't be able to learn their times tables or the periodic table.

http://phobias.about.com/od/introductiontophobias/a/psychologyfear.htm

 

[Catherineanne]

Fear is a basic human emotion and it is a good thing to have. We fear a lion even it is your pet. Why shouldn't we fear God, even God is love?

What makes you think it is good to live in fear?

That is simply not true.

 

[Standing_Ultraviolet]

Are you suggesting that Gods "fear" (Spiritual fear) is different from normal human fear (Physical fear)

Huh? No, I'm saying that the sort of fear you're talking about (where you can't absorb any information at all) is more of a visceral response to something immediately dangerous. You can easily have that about physical dangers, and there's no real difference to how your brain responds to physical and "spiritual" fears (because they both boil down to the same thing; fear in Christianity is a fear of Hell, and that's a fear of pain and the deprivation of pleasure). People don't usually feel that in regard to religious issues, although they certainly can. The sort of fear that the OP is referring to is a gnawing anxiety that you might go to Hell at some undefined point in the future. You can absorb information when you're afraid of something like that. You just can't be rational about that information, so it's very bad for a situation where you have to make an intellectual decision, as with religious issues.

 

[estadalamoo]

Huh? No, I'm saying that the sort of fear you're talking about (where you can't absorb any information at all) is more of a visceral response to something immediately dangerous. You can easily have that about physical dangers, and there's no real difference to how your brain responds to physical and "spiritual" fears (because they both boil down to the same thing; fear in Christianity is a fear of Hell, and that's a fear of pain and the deprivation of pleasure). People don't usually feel that in regard to religious issues, although they certainly can. The sort of fear that the OP is referring to is a gnawing anxiety that you might go to Hell at some undefined point in the future. You can absorb information when you're afraid of something like that. You just can't be rational about that information, so it's very bad for a situation where you have to make an intellectual decision, as with religious issues.

The bases is the same, any type of fear is a reaction to a lack of information. People fear hell not because they actually know there going there, but because they can't be sure 100% if they will go there.

 

[Emmy]

Dear Llewelyn. Sometimes fear brings better results, but fear should be used as little as possible. God is Love, and God wants loving sons and daughters. In Matthew 22: 35-40: Jesus tells us: " The first and great Commandment is:
Love God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. The second is like it: love thy neighbour as thyself." In verse 40: Jesus tells us: " On these two Commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."
God wants our Love for God our Heavenly Father, and for our neighbour. (neighbour being, all we know and all we meet, friends and not friends) In Luke 10: 24-28: Jesus is asked: " Master, what must I do to have eternal life?"
Jesus answers: " you know the two great Commandments: " Love God and love your neighbour? DO THESE AND YOU WILL HAVE ETERNAL LIFE. " Matthew 22: 35-40:" A Christian`s weapon is Love, with love you will overcome all enmity and bad behaviour, Love covers a multitude of sins, and love will always bring victory. We ask for Love and Joy, " Matthew 7: 7-10: Ask and you shall receive," then we thank God and share all Love and Joy with our neighbour. We keep asking and receiving, then thank God and share all Love and Joy with our neighbour.
God will see our loving efforts, and God will approve and bless us. We might stumble and forget at times, but then we ask God to forgive us, and carry on Loving and Caring. Fear is for disobedient and selfish sons and daughters of God,
and it is God`s Law of: " You will always reap what you sow," God`s Love will never bring forth fear, God is LOVE.
I say this with love, Llewelyn. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.

 

[Paulos23]

Posting blind to the OP.

There are some who keep asking me to deliver a concept of Christianity without fear. Such would be a gospel of lunacy although it is expressed by many these days.

Here are some proverbs for consideration:

I find the worst version of Christianity is the one based on fear.

1. It is better to fear and live than to cast off the restraints of fear and die.

Fear is the tool of the bully, the tyrant. If you want me to do something, telling me why it would be a good thing is more likely to get me to do something then to threaten me.

As for dieing, when you can show me evidence for and afterlife I will be worried about it. Until then, threatening me with it is another form of bulling that I don't stand for any more.

2. Which of you, seeing your child about to drink a deadly poison would not cause them to fear?

No, I would use the trust I have built with my child to stop him and then let him know that it is poison and it will harm him. There is no reason to scare the child.

3. The lack of fear is irrational, you should have yourself committed.

I do fear, I fear and worry about a lot of things. But I have been able to keep it to things that can happen, not something no one has any evidence for.

Take a little time to consider what each of these proverbs is saying, then make your reply. I'm sure you can find real life examples for all of these.

Nothing really new here for the case of fear, all reasons I have rejected over the long term. Don't get me wrong, fear is useful, but only short term. Long term it causes damage and resentment.

 

[Paulos23]

OK. Then try this: Father-child relationship. Father loves child. Child... FEAR/love father. You do know how a child will become if he has no fear to his parents.
It is a good analogy to God-human relationship.

I would say that is not a good Father-child relationship. Trust and understanding I have found works better.

 

[TillICollapse]

Fear triggers an involuntary adrenaline rush, which will disconnect cognitive abilities to some extent and trigger impulses of fight or flight. It is not sensible to suggest that a person experiencing such an adrenaline rush can learn anything other than to be afraid of whatever is making them afraid. Chances are they won't be able to learn their times tables or the periodic table.

http://phobias.about.com/od/introductiontophobias/a/psychologyfear.htm

I disagree and would simply repeat to you what I already stated in previous posts to the other poster on this topic.

 

[quatona]

Of course, there are different degrees and different effects. But the nature is the same. Fear is one of the basic nature of children,

So is [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]ting their pants.

No fear is a lie,[/quiote]
I´m not understanding what you are trying to say here.

it is not healthy, not beneficial and not good.

I was under the impression that we weren´t talking about fear in general, but about fear of your father in particula - and as far as fear of your father is concerned, I disagree wholeheartedly with your statement.

 

[Catherineanne]

I disagree and would simply repeat to you what I already stated in previous posts to the other poster on this topic.

'You are entitled to your opinion, but you are not entitled to your own facts.' Daniel Moynihan

What I said is a fact; people who are afraid will find their ability to learn very much impeded, and perhaps prevented altogether.

That is a fact.

 

[TillICollapse]

'You are entitled to your opinion, but you are not entitled to your own facts.' Daniel Moynihan

What I said is a fact; people who are afraid will find their ability to learn very much impeded, and perhaps prevented altogether.

That is a fact.

My stance is that I believe a person can experience fear and also learn while experiencing fear. I do not see how they need be mutually exclusive. I never stated they would learn the same as if they were not experiencing fear, or that fear would not have an impact on them in some capacity, or that fear couldn't diminish or hinder learning. I agree that a strong enough fear response can perhaps prevent learning altogether. Some of the generalized statements the other poster made, and your statement of:

"It is not sensible to suggest that a person experiencing such an adrenaline rush can learn anything other than to be afraid of whatever is making them afraid."

--- I don't agree with. I mentioned dissociation, detachment, and I could throw in fear conditioning I suppose as examples.

I agree that people who experience fear may find their ability to learn impeded, and perhaps prevented altogether. However if you think it's a fact that a person experiencing an adrenaline rush can only learn to be afraid of whatever is making them afraid ... please support that statement by presumably showing it is the only thing possible. That is what it looks to me as though you are stating with that assertion. If not, feel free to clarify.

 

[juvenissun]

And should these beatings should continue into adulthood? Do you feel that you would benefit from a good beating? If it were done artfully, of course.

Of course not, an adult is responsible for himself. However, I am not sure when should physical lessons (include beating) be stopped. I guess it is also an art.
No benefit to me. All benefits go to the children.

 

[Catherineanne]

Of course not, an adult is responsible for himself. However, I am not sure when should physical lessons (include beating) be stopped. I guess it is also an art.
No benefit to me. All benefits go to the children.

There is no benefit whatever in physical assault of anyone. The smaller the person, the worse the effect.

 

[juvenissun]

I am afraid parenting has rather moved on from that kind of thinking.

A relationship where a child fears its father is a dysfunctional relationship. Ditto for God:human relationships. Respect, certainly. Fear, not so much. And fortunately for me, the Bible concurs;

The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.

http://biblehub.com/psalms/111-10.htm

Kindly note, fear is the beginning, but it is not the end. A relationship with God as our loving Father is the end; a Father who gathers us to him as a hen gathers her chicks. A Father whose perfect love casts out all fear.

I don't agree. No matter how loving the authority is, fear should always be part of the feeling for the loved. It could be hidden. But it MUST be there. Otherwise, the status of authority will no longer exist. A 90-year old father gets angry, his 50-year old son "should" still "fear". If he does not, then he is not a son any more.