Fear and the Christian Message

[juvenissun]

Only in dysfunctional families do fathers give their children reason to fear them.

Your analogy implies that your 'relationship with God' is dysfunctional.

If you children have no feel of fearing on you, you are definitely in trouble.

 

[juvenissun]

What Oafman said. I don't fear my father. I don't think he will strike me. I dislike his disappointment, but my love for him is not tainted through fear or apprehension. I never worry that if I do the wrong thing, he will lash out at me or stop loving me. If you truly fear your father the way many believers fear hell, then you are in an abusive relationship.

But even here, your example is bad, because again, fathers are not omnibenevolent, omniscient, or omnipotent. They are, much like lions, animals, with often strong instincts and emotional responses. They're not wild or vicious like lions (at least generally they aren't), but this does not exclude an out-of-proportion emotional response. God's properties do.

You either forgot, or you are not telling the truth. Or, you do not have a child yet.

 

[Davian]

If you children have no feel of fearing on you, you are definitely in trouble.

Spare the rod, spoil the child?

 

[estadalamoo]

I'm not speaking to the OP, rather to your statement.

I see no reason why a person can't fear and learn at the same time. Are you saying you can't imagine any circumstances where a person experiences fear and learns at the same time ?

Test this theory out, next time you have fear crack a science book and try to absorb the information. Fear is a instinctual response that has developed to protect us from learning sickness (When you don't learn or you're faced with something you don't know) But the chemical is very potent and blocks other chemicals from interacting with other areas of the brain. However I will submit to your inquiry and admit that it's possible to learn with fear but only if the fear is in it's early stage, once the fear chemical increases it will get harder and harder to absorb information.

 

[Rajni]

There are some who keep asking me to deliver a concept of Christianity without fear. Such would be a gospel of lunacy although it is expressed by many these days.

Here are some proverbs for consideration:

1. It is better to fear and live than to cast off the restraints of fear and die.

2. Which of you, seeing your child about to drink a deadly poison would not cause them to fear?

3. The lack of fear is irrational, you should have yourself committed.

Take a little time to consider what each of these proverbs is saying, then make your reply. I'm sure you can find real life examples for all of these.

I'll just leave this here:

1 John 4:18: "There is no fear in love; but perfect love
casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and
the one who fears is not perfected in love."​

-

 

[TillICollapse]

Test this theory out, next time you have fear crack a science book and try to absorb the information. Fear is a instinctual response that has developed to protect us from learning sickness (When you don't learn or you're faced with something you don't know) But the chemical is very potent and blocks other chemicals from interacting with other areas of the brain. However I will submit to your inquiry and admit that it's possible to learn with fear but only if the fear is in it's early stage, once the fear chemical increases it will get harder and harder to absorb information.

There have been many times in my life I have experienced both fear, and learning, at the same time. A rather simple example: I had a true phobia for much of my life concerning flying insects that could also "buzz" ... flies, bees, wasps, cicada, etc. It didn't matter how harmless, so long as I could hear them buzzing and see them flying I had a fear. The origin of this fear was even known to me, because I remembered clearly the experience I had as a child which caused it: my dad took me to a baseball game when I was about 5 years old, and had his arm around my shoulder while holding a cigarette in his hand. The cigarette began to burn into my shoulder, right near my neck (unbeknownst to him) and it caused me pain obviously as I shrieked and grabbed my neck. Instead of blaming it on the cigarette, my dad told me it was a bug . That night at the game, we sat under one of the stadium lights in the stadium, and I watched all the swarms of summer bugs flying around the light, the whole time watching them and listening to them, terrified that one of them was going to come and bite into my neck again and burn it. As a result, anytime I saw a buzzing and flying bug ... I would instinctively grab my neck, try to pull my head down like a turtle, and go into fear mode. I would grow up to become the type of guy you would not expect to have this type of fear, and my buddies would often exploit it for their entertainment

In my 20's, I got a job on a commercial fishing boat, and the barrels of bait we used to bait the traps would often have swarms of bees around them. So while we were on the docks preparing our traps, the bees would swarm around us. Once we left the dock we would leave them behind, however while on the dock they were constantly there. This TERRIFIED me, and the first week or so on the job, I had to learn how to do my job and work, the entire time terrified of the bees. I tried to keep reminding myself that if I didn't freak out, they would not bite me, etc. I never did get bit once ... and eventually I helped to get over most of my fear, to where I no longer necessarily had that same reaction. Every now and then I will have reactions, but I am able to think it through and get over it.

That is one simple example of how I had to learn while afraid, and was able to do so. I can think of countless other examples as well ... from military scenarios, war zones, sporting competitions, to relationship fears, etc. Can fear block learning at times ? I think it obviously can. But imo it's rather obvious that a person can experience both fear and learn at the same time, and this is quite common. "Do it afraid", etc and so forth.

 

[estadalamoo]

There have been many times in my life I have experienced both fear, and learning, at the same time. A rather simple example: I had a true phobia for much of my life concerning flying insects that could also "buzz" ... flies, bees, wasps, cicada, etc. It didn't matter how harmless, so long as I could hear them buzzing and see them flying I had a fear. The origin of this fear was even known to me, because I remembered clearly the experience I had as a child which caused it: my dad took me to a baseball game when I was about 5 years old, and had his arm around my shoulder while holding a cigarette in his hand. The cigarette began to burn into my shoulder, right near my neck (unbeknownst to him) and it caused me pain obviously as I shrieked and grabbed my neck. Instead of blaming it on the cigarette, my dad told me it was a bug . That night at the game, we sat under one of the stadium lights in the stadium, and I watched all the swarms of summer bugs flying around the light, the whole time watching them and listening to them, terrified that one of them was going to come and bite into my neck again and burn it. As a result, anytime I saw a buzzing and flying bug ... I would instinctively grab my neck, try to pull my head down like a turtle, and go into fear mode. I would grow up to become the type of guy you would not expect to have this type of fear, and my buddies would often exploit it for their entertainment

In my 20's, I got a job on a commercial fishing boat, and the barrels of bait we used to bait the traps would often have swarms of bees around them. So while we were on the docks preparing our traps, the bees would swarm around us. Once we left the dock we would leave them behind, however while on the dock they were constantly there. This TERRIFIED me, and the first week or so on the job, I had to learn how to do my job and work, the entire time terrified of the bees. I tried to keep reminding myself that if I didn't freak out, they would not bite me, etc. I never did get bit once ... and eventually I helped to get over most of my fear, to where I no longer necessarily had that same reaction. Every now and then I will have reactions, but I am able to think it through and get over it.

That is one simple example of how I had to learn while afraid, and was able to do so. I can think of countless other examples as well ... from military scenarios, war zones, sporting competitions, to relationship fears, etc. Can fear block learning at times ? I think it obviously can. But imo it's rather obvious that a person can experience both fear and learn at the same time, and this is quite common. "Do it afraid", etc and so forth.

This is common to confuse recovery with fear itself. You recover from the fear about things after you learn about what it is you don't know, but you don't Learn while you fear, only after you are calm and relaxed. This is a process that takes time, then once you know enough about the problem the fear will dissipate completely. The reason I say fear and learning are agitators is because of the pain response fear induces. The fear response is a survival mechanism that won't let you do any thing else than protect yourself. Once you do that your fear will subside temporarily giving you time to learn. If you learn the fear won't need to return.

 

[TillICollapse]

This is common to confuse recovery with fear itself. You recover from the fear about things after you learn about what it is you don't know, but you don't Learn while you fear, only after you are calm and relaxed. This is a process that takes time, then once you know enough about the problem the fear will dissipate completely. The reason I say fear and learning are agitators is because of the pain response fear induces. The fear response is a survival mechanism that won't let you do any thing else than protect yourself. Once you do that your fear will subside temporarily giving you time to learn. If you learn the fear won't need to return.

In my example, I was still afraid while I learned. As I said, I can think of many other examples.

I'm sorry, I disagree with you.

 

[juvenissun]

Spare the rod, spoil the child?

It is the issue of the nature of fear, not education. Nevertheless, what you said is very very true.

 

[estadalamoo]

In my example, I was still afraid while I learned. As I said, I can think of many other examples.

I'm sorry, I disagree with you.

Ok, well I could adjust my view once I test these experiences and faculties again. Which I will just to make sure, but so far they have always been very predicable. In a way I hope I'm wrong I could do with a fresh view or at the least a improvement.

 

[TillICollapse]

Ok, well I could adjust my view once I test these experiences and faculties again. Which I will just to make sure, but so far they have always been very predicable. In a way I hope I'm wrong I could do with a fresh view or at the least a improvement.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying that fear cannot hinder learning, or that the fear response cannot be so pronounced that their ability to reason isn't significantly compromised and diminished. However I think to generalize in such a way that says a person cannot learn while experiencing any level of fear, is arguably demonstrably wrong. I picked the example of the phobia, to show experiencing a level of fear that was arguably not in it's early stages, while still learning. Also, consider various levels of detachment and disassociation in facilitating how a person may experience fear while still being able to learn, for example.

 

[estadalamoo]

Just to be clear, I'm not saying that fear cannot hinder learning, or that the fear response cannot be so pronounced that their ability to reason isn't significantly compromised and diminished. However I think to generalize in such a way that says a person cannot learn while experiencing any level of fear, is arguably demonstrably wrong. I picked the example of the phobia, to show experiencing a level of fear that was arguably not in it's early stages, while still learning. Also, consider various levels of detachment and disassociation in facilitating how a person may experience fear while still being able to learn, for example.

Yes I agree there that's really a softer approach to my theory, and I will add that to the theory ball.

 

[Winepress777]

(Rev 21:8) But the fearful... shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
(2Ti 1:7) For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
(Isa 35:4) Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you.

 

[Davian]

It is the issue of the nature of fear, not education. Nevertheless, what you said is very very true.

I did not imply that instilling fear in and beating children was a good thing. I do not think that it is. Do you?

 

[estadalamoo]

(Rev 21:8) But the fearful... shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
(2Ti 1:7) For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
(Isa 35:4) Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you.

You know you need fear right, without it you won't be able to make the right decision. So then what are those verse's talking about?

 

[Winepress777]

(Act 4:29) And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word,
(2Ti 3:12) Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
(Heb 11:37) They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
(Luk 19:40) And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.
(1Pe 4:14) If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.
(Mat 10:28) And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
(Rom 8:31) What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?


(Rom 8:32) He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

 

[estadalamoo]

(Act 4:29) And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word,
(2Ti 3:12) Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
(Heb 11:37) They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
(Luk 19:40) And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.
(1Pe 4:14) If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.
(Mat 10:28) And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
(Rom 8:31) What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?


(Rom 8:32) He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

Ok now I walk away.

 

[quatona]

OK. Then try this: Father-child relationship. Father loves child. Child... FEAR/love father. You do know how a child will become if he has no fear to his parents.
It is a good analogy to God-human relationship.

Well, if that´s a good analogy to support your view, I guess you and I have vastly different opinions about the benefits and damages coming from fear of your parents.

 

[quatona]

But even here, your example is bad, because again, fathers are not omnibenevolent, omniscient, or omnipotent.

Quoted for emphasis.
Plus, fathers haven´t created the way the world functions - they have to accustom their children to a world that already exists.

 

[Chicken Little]

There are some who keep asking me to deliver a concept of Christianity without fear. Such would be a gospel of lunacy although it is expressed by many these days.

Here are some proverbs for consideration:

1. It is better to fear and live than to cast off the restraints of fear and die.

2. Which of you, seeing your child about to drink a deadly poison would not cause them to fear?

3. The lack of fear is irrational, you should have yourself committed.

Take a little time to consider what each of these proverbs is saying, then make your reply. I'm sure you can find real life examples for all of these.

I like that .. and yes Fear is the only emotion that most people can feel after they are so blinded and deaf and just used up by people/ world and drugs and everything around them has a piece of them . But yes where there is real power , there is real reason to fear.. just like electricity. some of these persistent sort of boys are playing in the fuse box with a water hose and they don't have a clue