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Favorite Modern, and Not so Modern, Philosopher!

dms1972

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I gleaned certain things from her, while leaving others. The concept of selfishness actually being a virtue, as portrayed through the character of Roark and contrasted with others like Keating ... was beautiful to me.
Yes sorry about that, but I couldn't find from your initial post how she inspired your search for wisdom and truth which a true philosopher would do?



There is nothing wrong with gleaning from a writer. But I just find her and her individualism (such that she only credits Aristotle - as if she knew she could not get away without a nod to either Aristotle or Plato) then says she came up with the rest of her philosophy herself incredibly lacking in virtue. I mean and its nothing to do with gender for I have high admiration for other women philosophers such as Simone Weil - but Ayn Rand comes across incredibly smug.

I mean others have suffered for their thought and come to a profound and deep insight into human nature - Alexandr Solzenitzen would be an example.

But all I get from Rand I could find in Boundaries by Cloud and Townsend were it would be less pretentious and less romanticised.

Sorry if I seem to be taking her strongly to task but I see no virtue, or beauty in selfishness, and having read Pieper who understands something about virtue I think I can say he knows something she doesn't.

To me she represents a large part of what was wrong with Conservatism in the 20th century and the 1980s perhaps in particular.
 
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dms1972

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Great choice. His monadology is fascinating but doesn't seem to be taken to seriously anymore for some reason. I wonder why? I know one of my other favorite modern philosophers, Alfred North Whitehead, and process philosophy in general, owes a great debt to Leibnitz. Whiteheads 'actual entities' are lot like Leibnitz's monads only with windows.


Well I mainly know about Leibnitz from reading William Barrett who I'd rate highly too. But I want to find a good work of Leibnitz to begin with proper.
 
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TillICollapse

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Yes, true. The vision is beautiful.

An interesting aspect of Roark is that he wasn't self-aggrandizing.
I think it makes sense that such a person wouldn't be self-aggrandizing.

In general, I would probably say that much of self-aggrandizement rests upon others, and their recognition or comparison to them in some fashion. Narcissism and the need to fill one's narcissistic supply, essentially. Since Roark didn't love what he loved based on the approval or recognition of others, it would make sense to me that he wasn't self-aggrandizing.

This isn't to say that such a person wouldn't take joy and pleasure in themselves and what they do and display this, but there is a difference between that and the former.

He was in love with architecture, and he followed his artistic vision wherever it led him. His buildings carried his unique stamp not because he intentionally put it there, but because he simply did the best job he could using his own talents.
Indeed. What he created directly reflected it's creator, an extension of himself, naturally so not by intentionally thinking "Others will need to recognize what I've done so I need to put my mark on it," but as a byproduct of his love and passion for existing and his focuses within that existence.

Exactly right. We see that in his Temple of the Human Spirit, which is the love he has for life given concrete form. It can be described in no way quite as adequate as to call it "sacred". It really is a temple to the sacredness of human life and happiness.
Ah yes, the link between sacredness and happiness :)
 
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TillICollapse

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Yes sorry about that, but I couldn't find from your initial post how she inspired your search for wisdom and truth which a true philosopher would do?
My initial post didn't go into of those details. As far as what a "true philosopher" would or would not do, I'm not generally a fan of such labels of "true __________" in most types of contexts, including Scotsman lol :)



There is nothing wrong with gleaning from a writer. But I just find her and her individualism (such that she only credits Aristotle - as if she knew she could not get away without a nod to either Aristotle or Plato) then says she came up with the rest of her philosophy herself incredibly lacking in virtue. I mean and its nothing to do with gender for I have high admiration for other women philosophers such as Simone Weil - but Ayn Rand comes across incredibly smug.
Well perhaps we responded to her differently because we are different people :)

I mean others have suffered for their thought and come to a profound and deep insight into human nature - Alexandr Solzenitzen would be an example.

But all I get from Rand I could find in Boundaries by Cloud and Townsend were it would be less pretentious and less romanticised.

Sorry if I seem to be taking her strongly to task but I see no virtue, or beauty in selfishness, and having read Pieper who understands something about virtue I think I can say he knows something she doesn't.

To me she represents a large part of what was wrong with Conservatism in the 20th century and the 1980s perhaps in particular.
I actually do remembering seeing her on video for the first time after reading the Fountainhead, and thinking she came across as smug and arrogant as well. I was a bit surprised by some of the things she said, given the nature of the way I took her portrayal of characters. This was decades ago so I can't even remember specifics, just my general reactions. But of course part of gleaning things from others has to do with how we project onto them. That she herself seemed to fall short in my eyes from her idealized characters, really shouldn't be that much of a surprise.
 
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dms1972

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I actually do remembering seeing her on video for the first time after reading the Fountainhead, and thinking she came across as smug and arrogant as well. I was a bit surprised by some of the things she said, given the nature of the way I took her portrayal of characters. This was decades ago so I can't even remember specifics, just my general reactions. But of course part of gleaning things from others has to do with how we project onto them. That she herself seemed to fall short in my eyes from her idealized characters, really shouldn't be that much of a surprise.
Its just that of these two philosophers, one - Lao Tze seems is massively more profound than the other you mentioned - Ayn Rand, as to almost be qualitatively better, on the strength of a few quotes.


I am not saying this to attack you, but individualism and subjectivism are not so far apart, and I see subjectivism as harmful and what some people are floundering in nowadays. We are all individuals and each thinks for himself/ herself, but the possibility of reasoning together is very important.

I do think there are right and close to right answers and profoundly wrong ones too, as well as good questions and bad questions.

I quote and acknowledge as much as possible, I don't need to put it in my own thoughts. Ayn Rand unfortunately may have done more to encourage mediocre minds to think they were profound.

Contrast another intellectual CS Lewis (whatever one thinks of him) he was able to stand apart from his era. Same with Solzenitzin. But not if they had embraced Ayn Rand's life-approach of rational self-interest.

Christians largely don't want to face the real questions of the century. The justification of mankind takes importance over the justification of God. Which is more important?

Contrast Lao Tze with the verbosity of the modern mind / mouth. One can only grasp what he says according the magnamity and humility of ones heart, and usually only for moments. Its worth remembering his saying "A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step" but more important not to say it in the daftest contexts, or only at cocktail parties...

[Sorry to edit] But in fact the saying above is not maybe the best translation. I see some comments on the internet that it is best understood as: The journey of a thousand miles begins beneath one's feet - quite different in important respects.

A modern mind is at pains to communicate insights with more and more precision. Why? Because people have lost contact with the greater part their souls. Yet when does it really reach anything very profound? It's like a diver being pulled up continually to the surface when she wants to get a better look at something glimmering on the sea bed.

Here is a short exercise: quote a little of Lao Tze back to yourself from memory.

Its quite possible that any philosopher may be ripped from their original cultural, intellectual and political mileau and used to serve certain modern intellectual or political trends. This happens too in religion where gnostic thought prospers on the soil of religious texts.

I mentioned in another thread the need (for myself also) of road map for intellectual studies - not in the sense of laying down any single intellectual road, but to help people see where they might be moving ideologically and perhaps they want to study a particular intellectual but not follow logically on from that in the direction of an ideologue. [This is slight off topic, but still philosophy related]

So who do you ask? I don't have a first rate mind. Most will tell you who they read next if it 'helped' them. But most people don't know were they are travelling intellectually, or even when they get there, or where they want to travel either. There is not that many destinations and at least a few cliffs, and minefields.

So for instance given where one is intellectually in the 21st Century, does one want to know where that is and how one got there? Or simply read something that re-inforces the mindset of the times?
 
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AionPhanes

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Wiske:"....William James"

He is in my top ten modern philosophers as well. The "Varieties of Religious Experience" and "The Will to Believe" gave me some good food for thought about one my favorites topics- religion.

Sometime Epictetus gets a run for his money by Plotinus, Plato, and Iamblichus in my mind too. I actually consider myself more of a Platonist. I did however still choose Epictetus for some of the helpful tools he gave me to live my life. If you want to know how to be a little more joyful, how to deal with painful experiences, and to say "yes" to reality instead of being a nihilistic cry baby (I can go there at times*) he is a great resource. He also lets you know just how important ethics and virtue are so if I find myself getting lazy in that area it's a good reminder.

* At times I can even get carried away off into a sort of extreme world hating mood too. Like stereotypical/ so called "Manichean" thinking. My man Epictetus can help jolt me out of that.
 
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dms1972

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Sounds reasonable to me. He is often credited with being the first modern philosopher.

Then again I might be wrong. His thought is important for the scientific method. I read some more and it seems to be along historical lines and the fall of the western Roman empire that the Middle Ages can be considered to begin. So maybe one needs to look outside the field of philosophy to events in the world for what indicates the movement from the late middle ages to the early modern era?

The Age of Discovery - about the fifteenth century is sometimes considered a bridge between the these two.

Some decide based on criteria, others based on events, and it differs also between East and West.

I sometimes question in my own mind the whole pre-modern/ modern / post-modern (what?) manner of classifying things. And sometimes people use the term 'modern' as though they were waving a little wand, or as if it is a term of approbation.
 
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