Fate of those who haven't heard the Word?

[DataPacRat]

Hello, all; this is my first 'serious' post in this forum, so if I err, please let me know.


There is a particular aspect of Christian theology that I haven't been able to get any clear, definitive answers on from those I've asked before. It may be that there /is/ no widely-accepted answer, but I'm hoping that I might at least get a better idea of the range of opinions here.

Here are a few scenarios that I think illustrate the idea:

1. There were a large number of people born in BC, many very far away from where God made Himself known to Abraham. What fate do you think such people have in the afterlife?

2. There are still, today, some uncontacted people in remote parts of the world, who have never heard of Jesus at all. What is their fate?

3. There are a few people who have heard about Jesus, but not in a way that would give them any reasonable reason to consider accepting Him as their Saviour - such as a passing Christian traveler who mumbles something nearly incoherent when asked what he believes, or a scholar asked about his studies going into a complicated explanation of why Arianism is wrong. If someone has heard of Jesus, but has not been presented with His teachings in a way that they have any particular reason to believe they have any more value than any other historical figure, what do you think that person's fate after death will be?

 

[Warren Clark]

This is why I am humanist and I wonder the same.

 

[drich0150]

The writer of Hebrews answers your question in chapter 4:
12 For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. 13 Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

The Word (As in John 1:1/Jesus) will judge completely and without error. His judgment will be the most accurate and whole judgment anyone will ever receive.

 

[DataPacRat]

The writer of Hebrews answers your question in chapter 4:
12 For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. 13 Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

The Word (As in John 1:1/Jesus) will judge completely and without error. His judgment will be the most accurate and whole judgment anyone will ever receive.

Very well, then; by what standard is that judgment to be made, to whatever degree of accuracy?

For example, in John 14:6, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." Does this mean that the standard is that only those who accept Jesus before they die are able to enter heaven?

 

[freezerman2000]

If someone who has not heard the word of God is worshiping his deity with faith and sincerity, I can not perceive my God punishing them because of their ignorance of him.
If they worship not at all, then they MAY or MAY NOT be punished...I don't presume to judge them...

 

[drich0150]

Very well, then; by what standard is that judgment to be made, to whatever degree of accuracy?

For example, in John 14:6, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." Does this mean that the standard is that only those who accept Jesus before they die are able to enter heaven?

I think if you take your time and read what is actually being said in Heb 4 your question is being answered.

The "I am or Me" In your verse of John 14, is your judge. Which means No one can literally get to the Father except through Him or rather His judgment.

This judgment will determine exactly what you exposure was, how much of it you excepted, and how much of it you ignored. I would even go so far as to say what you would have done if you have a complete opportunity to hear the "Good News" if you had not heard it before. (Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. )

Dividing soul and Spirit (Intent from intention) Joints and marrow ( your activities and the core of those actions.) Thoughts and attitude of the Heart. Most of these sound related, because they are. The verse is telling us that Double edged sword Christ wields cuts all the secrets of your heart into deli thin slices so everything is transparent and laid out so nothing is hidden.

God is not a fool, nor is He unrighteous. You, me and the guy who never heard of God/Christ will be judged on the most complete and fair level possible. Meaning nothing will be hidden, nothing will be in doubt or in question when you receive your judgment. Your judgment all boils down to two main questions
What did you do with your exposure to Christ?
-Or-
What would you have done with exposure if you had none?

Where you faithful to what you were given?

 

[drich0150]

This is why I am humanist and I wonder the same.

Did you get your "wonder" answered?

 

[DataPacRat]

God is not a fool, nor is He unrighteous. You, me and the guy who never heard of God/Christ will be judged on the most complete and fair level possible.

Are you, then, of the belief that such non-Christians are not automatically destined for Hell?

 

[drich0150]

Are you, then, of the belief that such non-Christians are not automatically destined for Hell?

I believe our labels as to who we deem "Christian" are not always the same as who Christ would deem a "Christian."

Jesus tells us that not everyone calls Him by name will He recognize. (this means not all who call themselves christian are indeed Christians.) The book of Revelations accounts for at least 144K "non Christians" (as popular christanity would define them.) in heaven.

Make no mistake in what I am saying. There will Only be Christians in Heaven. The thing is "we" do not get to decide who or what a Christian is. That is what the judgment is all about.

Christianity as a religious effort will no doubt produce the majority of the Christians in Heaven. Especially given then times we live in now. But if one looks at the History of man I can name at least a few dozen names that do not qualify as a Christian, defined by popular christian standards, but have been identified by the bible as "righteous" before God.

 

[Warren Clark]

I guess it answers it but I surely wouldn't want to believe in a childish god. one that judges even the ones that havent heard of his name.
I wouldnt want to be passed judgement upon by someone/thing i didnt ever hear of. I would give a whole [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]! to the all mighty creater. I think its pretty ridiculous.

 

[visionary]

Hello, all; this is my first 'serious' post in this forum, so if I err, please let me know.


There is a particular aspect of Christian theology that I haven't been able to get any clear, definitive answers on from those I've asked before. It may be that there /is/ no widely-accepted answer, but I'm hoping that I might at least get a better idea of the range of opinions here.

Here are a few scenarios that I think illustrate the idea:

1. There were a large number of people born in BC, many very far away from where God made Himself known to Abraham. What fate do you think such people have in the afterlife?

2. There are still, today, some uncontacted people in remote parts of the world, who have never heard of Jesus at all. What is their fate?

3. There are a few people who have heard about Jesus, but not in a way that would give them any reasonable reason to consider accepting Him as their Saviour - such as a passing Christian traveler who mumbles something nearly incoherent when asked what he believes, or a scholar asked about his studies going into a complicated explanation of why Arianism is wrong. If someone has heard of Jesus, but has not been presented with His teachings in a way that they have any particular reason to believe they have any more value than any other historical figure, what do you think that person's fate after death will be?

There are many who are following God's voice and obeying it.. they are His even if they know not His name.

 

[solarwave]

There is a particular aspect of Christian theology that I haven't been able to get any clear, definitive answers on from those I've asked before. It may be that there /is/ no widely-accepted answer, but I'm hoping that I might at least get a better idea of the range of opinions here.

Well there isn't one answer that everyone agrees with. I'll give my own understanding of it which would probably be made more liberal or conservative than how I'll explain it here.

Here are a few scenarios that I think illustrate the idea:

1. There were a large number of people born in BC, many very far away from where God made Himself known to Abraham. What fate do you think such people have in the afterlife?

2. There are still, today, some uncontacted people in remote parts of the world, who have never heard of Jesus at all. What is their fate?

3. There are a few people who have heard about Jesus, but not in a way that would give them any reasonable reason to consider accepting Him as their Saviour - such as a passing Christian traveler who mumbles something nearly incoherent when asked what he believes, or a scholar asked about his studies going into a complicated explanation of why Arianism is wrong. If someone has heard of Jesus, but has not been presented with His teachings in a way that they have any particular reason to believe they have any more value than any other historical figure, what do you think that person's fate after death will be?

I think people are judged by how they respond to the amount of truths and goodness they know.

I originally got this understanding from the passage below.

Romans 2:12-15
"12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)"

So the law should be considered to be the truth of God, including the law of what is right and wrong.

So in all three circumstances it is my opinion that the most important thing the heart turning itself towards truth and goodness as best as it can. Those who know more of the truth and held to a higher standard. Although knowing more of the 'divine' means being held to a higher standard I believed the truth also sets you free to a greater degree.

 

[The Iris]

Hello, all; this is my first 'serious' post in this forum, so if I err, please let me know.


There is a particular aspect of Christian theology that I haven't been able to get any clear, definitive answers on from those I've asked before. It may be that there /is/ no widely-accepted answer, but I'm hoping that I might at least get a better idea of the range of opinions here.

Here are a few scenarios that I think illustrate the idea:

1. There were a large number of people born in BC, many very far away from where God made Himself known to Abraham. What fate do you think such people have in the afterlife?

2. There are still, today, some uncontacted people in remote parts of the world, who have never heard of Jesus at all. What is their fate?

3. There are a few people who have heard about Jesus, but not in a way that would give them any reasonable reason to consider accepting Him as their Saviour - such as a passing Christian traveler who mumbles something nearly incoherent when asked what he believes, or a scholar asked about his studies going into a complicated explanation of why Arianism is wrong. If someone has heard of Jesus, but has not been presented with His teachings in a way that they have any particular reason to believe they have any more value than any other historical figure, what do you think that person's fate after death will be?

What About Those Who Don't Know About Christ? - Come Reason Ministries

God will judge those who have heard the truth yet have rejected it more severely than those who have never heard (Luke 10:14)

One proposed solution has been God has created an optimal balance between the saved and lost, and those who never hear the gospel are lost and would not have believed in it if they had heard it. This would make sense coming from a loving God who wishes none would perish.

1 Samuel 16: 7 makes clear God judges by the heart.

Jeremiah 31:34 says, “I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.”

"In his letter to the Romans, Paul uses the same terminology when he writes “when Gentiles, who do not possess the law, do instinctively what the law requires, these, though not having the law, are a law to themselves. 15 They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, to which their own conscience also bears witness; and their conflicting thoughts will accuse or perhaps excuse them 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God, through Jesus Christ, will judge the secret thoughts of all.” (Romans 2:14-16)

This applies too two of the questions you asked. The first, about the OT, requires a much longer answer - an answer I lack the time to give.

 

[drich0150]

I guess it answers it but I surely wouldn't want to believe in a childish god.

By what standard do you judge God?

one that judges even the ones that haven't heard of his name.

Since i am assuming you judge God by a standard you have created, I ask that you take that role of the ultimate authority, and that you provide an acceptable alternative to what you have deemed Childish. (please rephrase in a way it does not get censored.)

Why is this better?

Now if you could take a life lived, and prove (because you know who this person is) how he would have responded to the Gospel would you do it? or would you simply do it the way (whatever way) you have just explained.

Remember God does not need proof of who you are, because it is written that He knew you before you were born. The life you live is for your sake not His. If enough life was given to prove to you what type of person you are with or without the full knowledge of popular christianity's gospel, is what your suggesting really even needed?

The bottom line question at one's judgment will be; were you faithful with what you were given?
Do you really think knowing that you will be held accountable to what you are given will change a heart? How has that worked for you? You know you will be held accountable and originally your heart had you hinge you disbelief because you did not have an answer to this question. Now your heart tells us that because God does not work that way you think He should work that He is being "Childish." You are who you are despite who you claim to be.

If you want to be and bind your belief to a personal sense of righteousness you derive from popular culture, then feel free to do so. But as i said before God is no fool, and even if you can fool yourself with your personal brand of righteousness, to not expect God to follow you, and accept what you have accepted for yourself. Know you will be asked the same questions as the rest, no matter what happens to those who have never heard the good news.

 

[elman]

I think if you take your time and read what is actually being said in Heb 4 your question is being answered.

The "I am or Me" In your verse of John 14, is your judge. Which means No one can literally get to the Father except through Him or rather His judgment.

This judgment will determine exactly what you exposure was, how much of it you excepted, and how much of it you ignored. I would even go so far as to say what you would have done if you have a complete opportunity to hear the "Good News" if you had not heard it before. (Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. )

Dividing soul and Spirit (Intent from intention) Joints and marrow ( your activities and the core of those actions.) Thoughts and attitude of the Heart. Most of these sound related, because they are. The verse is telling us that Double edged sword Christ wields cuts all the secrets of your heart into deli thin slices so everything is transparent and laid out so nothing is hidden.

God is not a fool, nor is He unrighteous. You, me and the guy who never heard of God/Christ will be judged on the most complete and fair level possible. Meaning nothing will be hidden, nothing will be in doubt or in question when you receive your judgment. Your judgment all boils down to two main questions
What did you do with your exposure to Christ?
-Or-
What would you have done with exposure if you had none?

Where you faithful to what you were given?

Matt 25:31 and following. The judgment scene as described by Jesus is not how you describe it. There is no question about accepting or ignoring the good news unless the good news is love your neighbor.

 

[elman]

By what standard do you judge God?

Since i am assuming you judge God by a standard you have created, I ask that you take that role of the ultimate authority, and that you provide an acceptable alternative to what you have deemed Childish. (please rephrase in a way it does not get censored.)

Why is this better?

Now if you could take a life lived, and prove (because you know who this person is) how he would have responded to the Gospel would you do it? or would you simply do it the way (whatever way) you have just explained.

Remember God does not need proof of who you are, because it is written that He knew you before you were born. The life you live is for your sake not His. If enough life was given to prove to you what type of person you are with or without the full knowledge of popular christianity's gospel, is what your suggesting really even needed?

The bottom line question at one's judgment will be; were you faithful with what you were given?
Do you really think knowing that you will be held accountable to what you are given will change a heart? How has that worked for you? You know you will be held accountable and originally your heart had you hinge you disbelief because you did not have an answer to this question. Now your heart tells us that because God does not work that way you think He should work that He is being "Childish." You are who you are despite who you claim to be.

If you want to be and bind your belief to a personal sense of righteousness you derive from popular culture, then feel free to do so. But as i said before God is no fool, and even if you can fool yourself with your personal brand of righteousness, to not expect God to follow you, and accept what you have accepted for yourself. Know you will be asked the same questions as the rest, no matter what happens to those who have never heard the good news.

I see no questions ask of the sheep in Matt 25:31 and following. Jesus simply grants them access to the father based on their love for others.

 

[Warren Clark]

By what standard do you judge God?

Since i am assuming you judge God by a standard you have created, I ask that you take that role of the ultimate authority, and that you provide an acceptable alternative to what you have deemed Childish. (please rephrase in a way it does not get censored.)

Why is this better?

Now if you could take a life lived, and prove (because you know who this person is) how he would have responded to the Gospel would you do it? or would you simply do it the way (whatever way) you have just explained.

Remember God does not need proof of who you are, because it is written that He knew you before you were born. The life you live is for your sake not His. If enough life was given to prove to you what type of person you are with or without the full knowledge of popular christianity's gospel, is what your suggesting really even needed?

The bottom line question at one's judgment will be; were you faithful with what you were given?
Do you really think knowing that you will be held accountable to what you are given will change a heart? How has that worked for you? You know you will be held accountable and originally your heart had you hinge you disbelief because you did not have an answer to this question. Now your heart tells us that because God does not work that way you think He should work that He is being "Childish." You are who you are despite who you claim to be.

If you want to be and bind your belief to a personal sense of righteousness you derive from popular culture, then feel free to do so. But as i said before God is no fool, and even if you can fool yourself with your personal brand of righteousness, to not expect God to follow you, and accept what you have accepted for yourself. Know you will be asked the same questions as the rest, no matter what happens to those who have never heard the good news.

Envy/Jealousy
Wrath

Two deadly sins.
Also two things children and God have in common when they dont get what they want.

God made a pretty [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]ed place for a concious supernatural and almighty character.

To create a religion that shuns those that have never even heard of him.

Logically it bears a grim presence on this world to have an egotistical child as a God.

 

[elman]

There are many who are following God's voice and obeying it.. they are His even if they know not His name.

The sheep were surprised in Matt 25:41 and following to hear that loving others is showing love to God.

 

[HisHomeMaker]

This may interest you.
Christian author's book sparks charges of heresy – CNN Belief Blog - CNN.com Blogs

"Bell has authored a book called Love Wins: A Book About Heaven, Hell, and the Fate of Every Person Who Ever Lived, which ignited a firestorm of controversy over the weekend, weeks before it arrives in bookstores."

"Full-blown hell-is-empty-everyone-gets-saved universalism"

 

[CryptoLutheran]

Hello, all; this is my first 'serious' post in this forum, so if I err, please let me know.


There is a particular aspect of Christian theology that I haven't been able to get any clear, definitive answers on from those I've asked before. It may be that there /is/ no widely-accepted answer, but I'm hoping that I might at least get a better idea of the range of opinions here.

Here are a few scenarios that I think illustrate the idea:

1. There were a large number of people born in BC, many very far away from where God made Himself known to Abraham. What fate do you think such people have in the afterlife?

The mercy of God, just like everyone else.

2. There are still, today, some uncontacted people in remote parts of the world, who have never heard of Jesus at all. What is their fate?

The mercy of God, just like everyone else.

3. There are a few people who have heard about Jesus, but not in a way that would give them any reasonable reason to consider accepting Him as their Saviour - such as a passing Christian traveler who mumbles something nearly incoherent when asked what he believes, or a scholar asked about his studies going into a complicated explanation of why Arianism is wrong. If someone has heard of Jesus, but has not been presented with His teachings in a way that they have any particular reason to believe they have any more value than any other historical figure, what do you think that person's fate after death will be?

The mercy of God, just like everyone else.

I don't come from the position that only Christians will be "in Heaven", I believe, as St. Isaac the Syrian put it, that God's grace is far bigger than anything I could ever conceive.

Everyone must answer to the same God, and He who is good, gracious and kind will act accordingly; mercifully and justly.

-CryptoLutheran