Fatal Police shootings are increasing....

[Tuur]

Nope. We have third party oversight over every level of police service. In my province we have ASIRT (Alberta Serious Incident Reporting Team).
And I BELIEVE (though I could be wrong) that the RCMP also have their own body.

Not to argue, but for general information: how does the province system work in Canada? Are they separate nations in a union, as in the US and EU, or divisions of a country?

 

[Hans Blaster]

Not to argue, but for general information: how does the province system work in Canada? Are they separate nations in a union, as in the US and EU, or divisions of a country?

US states aren't separate nations. I thought we worked that out back in `65.

 

[DaisyDay]

If there was no accountability, then state bureaus of investigation wouldn't handle the inquiry.

How did they handle it except for saying they don't keep records of that?

 

[DaisyDay]

Not to argue, but for general information: how does the province system work in Canada? Are they separate nations in a union, as in the US and EU, or divisions of a country?

You're from here and you think that states are separate nations? Or am I misunderstanding you?

 

[DaisyDay]

The best way to explain it is that the US is like the EU, with member states like member nations. That's why they're called states. Our states aren't provinces, which means the FBI isn't part of a hierarchy that places them over state and local law enforcement.

We have states within the nation. Federal laws do supersede state laws if there is a conflict. Federal laws apply to all states but state laws only apply to its individual state. When there is joint jurisdiction, the FBI does have precedence over state troopers who have precedence over municipal police force.

I was about to say no, then remembered that some states have gone to third parties to pull jury lists rather than to rely on local courts. This eliminates things like "good ol' boy" behavior, but it also means that a felon, which a Clerk of Court might know by name and not select for the jury pool, occasionally gets chosen. That's why judges in these places often ask "Do we have any felons here?" when selecting a jury.

Short answer is I don't know.

The FBI keeps national statistics as reported when reported by the states. As we have seen, the FBI databases are dependent on the voluntary reporting, which is faulty, so they are only as accurate as the information they get.

 

[rambot]

Not to argue, but for general information: how does the province system work in Canada? Are they separate nations in a union, as in the US and EU, or divisions of a country?

Appreciate the inquire. Nope. We are considered a "Dominion" I believe. Divisions of a country, for sure. Our provinces have elected bodies and reps. for the King (ugh). A couple of provinces have their own police force and the RCMP only work in certain areas.

 

[Ana the Ist]

but for some reason, more of these are going unreported.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/interactive/2022/fatal-police-shootings-unreported/


My thoughts are simply something I'm repeating from before:
America has a policing problem. Your bar to be come a policeman is FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR too low.

I'm sorry, this police being shot or police shooting others?

 

[Ana the Ist]

The best way to explain it is that the US is like the EU, with member states like member nations. That's why they're called states. Our states aren't provinces, which means the FBI isn't part of a hierarchy that places them over state and local law enforcement.

Actually, they are above state and local law enforcement. They would have to be. Their jurisdiction is federal....that's at least the contiguous united states.

The Washington Post set up the "Fatal Force" database to track police shootings. Apparently their numbers don't match with the FBI numbers. So between that and this:

Statistica shows us this:

People shot to death by U.S. police, by race 2022 | Statista

Suddenly in 2021 and 2022....the number of people whose race is "unknown" triples.


Things seem a bit fishy to me.

What's fishy?

I was about to say no, then remembered that some states have gone to third parties to pull jury lists rather than to rely on local courts. This eliminates things like "good ol' boy" behavior, but it also means that a felon, which a Clerk of Court might know by name and not select for the jury pool, occasionally gets chosen. That's why judges in these places often ask "Do we have any felons here?" when selecting a jury.

Short answer is I don't know.

 

[Pommer]

We have states within the nation. Federal laws do supersede state laws if there is a conflict. Federal laws apply to all states but state laws only apply to its individual state. When there is joint jurisdiction, the FBI does have precedence over state troopers who have precedence over municipal police force.


The FBI keeps national statistics as reported when reported by the states. As we have seen, the FBI databases are dependent on the voluntary reporting, which is faulty, so they are only as accurate as the information they get.

In general, 1-8 Amendment cases Federal Law holds.
Ninth and Tenth Amendment cases aren’t usually ruled on, unless the law-in-question impinges on a “fundamental right” or unduly burdens the aforementioned 1-8th Amendments.

If the US Constitution is silent on the matter, the highest State Court ruling prevails.

 

[Tuur]

Actually, they are above state and local law enforcement. They would have to be. Their jurisdiction is federal....that's at least the contiguous united states.

"Above" implies that all other US law enforcement agencies answer to the FBI. That's like saying Interpol is "above" all other law enforcement agencies. All law enforcement agencies are restricted in what they can and cannot investigate. That the FBI is a federal agency does not mean that it automatically supersedes state and local law enforcement because state and local law enforcement wasn't placed under the FBI (and probably couldn't without a constitutional amendment).

If that seems strange, consider that there's also the ATF, another federal law enforcement agency, and it can and does conduct its own investigations. If your argument is that federal supersedes states, does the FBI supersede the ATF or the ATF the FBI? And what of other federal law enforcement agencies?

 

[Tuur]

Appreciate the inquire. Nope. We are considered a "Dominion" I believe. Divisions of a country, for sure. Our provinces have elected bodies and reps. for the King (ugh). A couple of provinces have their own police force and the RCMP only work in certain areas.

That's kind of what I thought. Not a criticism, just a different way of doing things.

 

[DaisyDay]

If that seems strange, consider that there's also the ATF, another federal law enforcement agency, and it can and does conduct its own investigations. If your argument is that federal supersedes states, does the FBI supersede the ATF or the ATF the FBI? And what of other federal law enforcement agencies?

There are many sub departments under the Department of Justice. The lines can overlap and while there may be rivalry they do often work together. I think the FBI has the biggest budget and best PR but they are co-equal.

 

[Ana the Ist]

"Above" implies that all other US law enforcement agencies answer to the FBI. That's like saying Interpol is "above" all other law enforcement agencies. All law enforcement agencies are restricted in what they can and cannot investigate. That the FBI is a federal agency does not mean that it automatically supersedes state and local law enforcement because state and local law enforcement wasn't placed under the FBI (and probably couldn't without a constitutional amendment).

If that seems strange, consider that there's also the ATF, another federal law enforcement agency, and it can and does conduct its own investigations. If your argument is that federal supersedes states, does the FBI supersede the ATF or the ATF the FBI? And what of other federal law enforcement agencies?

Ok....imagine you have a local ordinance against firearms at the public park.

But a state trooper is chasing a criminal whom he shoots in the very same park?

Did the trooper violate the law regarding firearms? No. State law effectively allows him to ignore it...because state law gives him the right to carry the firearm.

Your FBI agents are operating under federal law so basically they can carry anywhere, regardless of local or state laws, with few exceptions like courts or prisons.

Jurisdiction will follow a similar approach.

Local cop investigating case gets a call from the state detective to drop it....they're already covering the case....then the FBI calls and says it's part of a larger case, and tells the state detective to drop it.

 

[Ana the Ist]

So theoretically, there are areas in the US where there is NO meaningful police oversite by a third party?

What would constitute a 3rd party in your mind?

Nope. We have third party oversight over every level of police service. In my province we have ASIRT (Alberta Serious Incident Reporting Team).
And I BELIEVE (though I could be wrong) that the RCMP also have their own body.

A quick glance at the ASIRT shows it's made up of cops, and civilian investigators ....which I imagine is a fancy way of saying former cops.

 

[rambot]

What would constitute a 3rd party in your mind?

Arms length from the government.

A quick glance at the ASIRT shows it's made up of cops, and civilian investigators ....which I imagine is a fancy way of saying former cops.

Great.