Fasting

[Futuwwa]

Prawnik, you are right, of course, observance to the letter is of little value if one still goes against the purpose of the commandment. If someone would circumvent the commandment to fast by sleeping during days and living during nights, I would not be impressed. But that would also be against the letter of the Quran, as it states directly that the purpose of ramadan is to learn self-restraint, which the guy in question wouldn't. I would give you a quote, but I'm not sure I'd be allowed to. I suspect Bushmaster at least would try to make my head roll for uttering blasphemies.

What I rather meant was, as long as someone does everything which God demands, I won't expect him to do even more.

 

[DarkNLovely]

Fasting from foods is performed one of two ways

1. Skipping meals or a meal
2 Abstaining from certain foods (and it usually are foods which seem to imply luxury).

Muslims fast 12 hours during the day, so the meals they skip they make up at nite (when they wouldnt be eating regularly to begin with).

The jews on yom kippur have a 25 hour fast, so they skip the meals of an entire day.

You also fast thru abstaining, the hebrews in the desert ate manna and pretty much nothing else.

St John the Baptist living in the wilderness only ate honey and locusts.

Christ says to the pharisees, "For John the baptistcame neither eating bread nor drining wine, and you say, He has a demon. The Son of Man has come eating and drinking and you say, Look! a glutton and a winebibber, a friend of tax collectors and sinners" Lk 7.34

And in another scripture verse, "Jesus said, Can the friends of the bridegroom fast while the bridegroom is with them? As long as they have the bridegroom with them they cannot fast. But the days will come when the bridegroom will be taken away from them and then they will fast in that day." MK 2.19-20.

Skipping meals is not the only appropriate practise as the OP implys.

Abstaining from certain foods for a time was also practised (1 SAM 31.13, 1 CHR 10.12)

I just have to say, that I so enjoy Buzu's posts! Even if I don't agree 100%! Tehy are always so informed!

Carry on!

 

[Futuwwa]

If you are a good muslim what are you doing with the giaour? (Bushmaster would be better at this!)

Well, is there any reason against it? I want to learn about you.

 

[Futuwwa]

How can you fast all day and living in rememberance of God and fornicate and eat uncontrolably at night and still be "pious" and live in rememberance.... Christ by no means did that at the desert... He fasted and he did not "celebrate creation" at night.... It sounds wrong and makes absolutely no sense... and the rest of the time? Outside of Ramadan?

Outside Ramadan, ordinary Islamic morality applies. Nobody is permitted to fornicate during the nights of Ramadan, I don't know where you got that.

 

[DarkNLovely]

Yeah, Muslims aren't supposed to fornicate at all! I wouldn't call myself an Islamic sympathizer, but I really don't see what's wrong with the 12 hours on, 12 hours off thing. I believe Christian fasting may be more strict and thus arguably more reflective, but I don't think it makes Muslims less pious. Couldnd't it be argued that the feasting and celebration is also a part of Ramadan? If you look at it like that, then maybe it wouldn't seem impious.

 

[Futuwwa]

I'm sorry but this bothers me. It seems like you are now going to fast for the sake of pride, not for the sake of God.

Well, yes, I agree that the attitude is potentially hazardous. But as long as it is in accordance with God's will, I should be fine as long as I watch myself. Tell me your most extreme fasting practices, I'll take yer all on!

 

[Futuwwa]

Yeah, Muslims aren't supposed to fornicate at all! I wouldn't call myself an Islamic sympathizer, but I really don't see what's wrong with the 12 hours on, 12 hours off thing. I believe Christian fasting may be more strict and thus arguably more reflective, but I don't think it makes Muslims less pious. Couldnd't it be argued that the feasting and celebration is also a part of Ramadan? If you look at it like that, then maybe it wouldn't seem impious.

Well, some people actually do see it as a celebration - Ramadan was the month in which the first part of the Quran was revealed to Muhammed.

 

[Philothei]

I wouldn't call myself an Islamic sympathizer


Has nothing to do with that ... as a religion Christianity cannot compare in its spirituality or fasting with that of muslims... as for any other religious expressions. I deny to accept that everyone's spirituality is the same ... that is all. I hope I make that clear I am not an ecumenist...or draw parallels for the sake of being accepting.... One is an orange and the other apple .... tha tis all! That is how syncretism creeps in by admitting that we "can" accept "similar" experiences and expressions... well IMO we cannot or we are not being who we are. That is all I have to say.

God bless,
Philothei

 

[DarkNLovely]

I wouldn't call myself an Islamic sympathizer


Has nothing to do with that ... as a religion Christianity cannot compare in its spirituality or fasting with that of muslims... as for any other religious expressions. I deny to accept that everyone's spirituality is the same ... that is all. I hope I make that clear I am not an ecumenist...or draw parallels for the sake of being accepting.... One is an orange and the other apple .... tha tis all! That is how syncretism creeps in by admitting that we "can" accept "similar" experiences and expressions... well IMO we cannot or we are not being who we are. That is all I have to say.

God bless,
Philothei

You should write books! Lol!

 

[authiodionitist]

I wouldn't call myself an Islamic sympathizer


Has nothing to do with that ... as a religion Christianity cannot compare in its spirituality or fasting with that of muslims... as for any other religious expressions. I deny to accept that everyone's spirituality is the same ... that is all. I hope I make that clear I am not an ecumenist...or draw parallels for the sake of being accepting.... One is an orange and the other apple .... tha tis all! That is how syncretism creeps in by admitting that we "can" accept "similar" experiences and expressions... well IMO we cannot or we are not being who we are. That is all I have to say.

God bless,
Philothei

 

[DarkNLovely]

Perhaps this should be a thread all it's own, but I am hoping to become a voluntary simplicitous soon, so I would be ubber interested in learning about Orthodox acetics practices!

 

[Orthosdoxa]

I am hoping to become a voluntary simplicitous soon

A who?

 

[DarkNLovely]

A who?

I spelled it wrong! A voluntary simplicitist!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simple_living

 

[Philothei]

Guests please respect:not for D&L but for Futuwwa...


1.Non-Orthodox are permitted only fellowship and honest, sincere questions. No debating,teaching or preaching will be tolerated.

We are not interested in your Ramazani either.... asking to learn yes.... compare on your own no need to vocalize it here please....


God bless,
Philothei

 

[Futuwwa]

Huh? I've only answered questions and points raised by others, I've made no teaching initiatives.

 

[Philothei]

Yes, we can verify that by having a mod review the thread.... I guess.

 

[cobweb]

I spelled it wrong! A voluntary simplicitist!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simple_living

My parents are voluntary simplicitists.

http://kmfministries.blogspot.com/ (you can see a little photo of their cabin there.)

 

[Xpycoctomos]

Interesting thread.

This is how I see it. I think the 12 on 12 off is fine. Although I often forget to eat all day as well, there are days when that would be very very difficult. And, every person is different anyway.

Also, it's not about who's fast is more difficult at all. That misses the point. The point is giving up something for God. We can argue over whose fast is more beneficial to health and all that. And if I were to opine on which fast might be more level-headed and take mroe long-term endurance, I would have to say that Orthodox fast. It just is to me. But others might disagree. that's fine. That's not the point guys.

In fact, I don't even know why some of you are trying to play this game of criticizing the Muslim fast or whatever. I'm not saying don't do that becuase it's mean or will hur Futwaas feeling... I'm sure he can handle it anyway. But it's just comPLETELY irrelevant. When M-A was talking about this, the answer should have been focused onChrist and the wonderful points people were making aobut God becoming man and why Christianity is TRUTH. It's not truth becuase of the fast. I personally think some of the fasting rules are kind of dumb and irrelevant to our present-day culture. My stomach thinks it's pretty sweet that I can eat lobster. AWESOME. Fsting is about giving up for God, emptying yourself and remember Him and His sacrafice. It is about putting the soul back on the straight and narrow. I don't care if in Islam it is done for the same reason or not.

If MA were still here I would tell him: you know what, let's just say for arguments sake that the Muslim fast is more like the way it was done by Christians and Jews in days of old.... that's nice. Let's even say that it is better for directing one's soul toward prayer and makes you humbler and that in EVERY SINGLE way it is better. IT DOESN'T MATTER. What matters is that THIS is Christianity and Islam is not. Just becuase we both have beards, fast and chant in cool tones and wear robes and do stuff with our bodies to honor God or "God" is completely irrelevant. Christianity is defined by our beliefs and love and those who have passed down the TRUTH to us... not by the rules.

So, let's bring this back on track.

Islam fasts? It's better than ours? Okay.

And what's the price of Tea in China. Tell me when Muslims start believing that God emptied himself and became Man that he loves us unconditionally and always and that we have free will. Then we can talk about Islam mattering in terms of Orthodoxy.

As of now, it doesn't matter at all except for our brothers and sisters who suffer under them. But that's another thread and probalby a very unproductive one.

John

 

[choirfiend]

The point is NOT giving something up for God. That's the purpose of "fasting" that I typically hear from Catholics (and those protestants who have adapted fasting as a practice, mostly taken from the Catholics.) That;s a false understanding of the purpose of fasting, and it thusly follows that the 2 practices are not equatable based on that (false) criteria.

Who wants to take a stab at the purpose of fasting? I'll give rep to whoever manages to correctly state the Orthodox teaching first.

 

[Philothei]

? ??? is this a test? lol...