Fasting

[MichaelNZ]

I have been wondering: Why does the Orthodox fast simply consist of abstaining from meat, dairy and other animal products? In the Bible, fasting meant abstaining from all food, because Jesus admonishes those hypocrites who "disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast". Simply abstaining from meat and dairy wouldn't leave any external sign, but not eating anything would. This kind of fasting is followed by Jews up till this day on Yom Kippur (the Day of Atonement). The Muslim fast consists of not eating or drinking anything between dawn and sunset.

So why is the Orthodox fast different? Why such a break with tradition? Shouldn't it be called "abstinence" rather than fasting?

 

[TrueHope]

I have asked myself this question too. My first 40 day fast, I tried to live on Bread and water....because to me, fasting is all out nothing...as Christ did when Satan tried to tempt Him. This is another EO battle I carry. Plus, when it is fasting time, I know that each person does it a different way, personal to them, but fasting is also not talking about it, just doing it....and here, all people do is talk about it. It actually saddens me. (Here, my area in Greece...)

As my priest puts it, which I love it when he does this speech, Don't bother to fast if you are hurting others with your tongue, talking about how pure your food is, Bragging how your fasting food is better than another's, even a stores, scolding someone for eating something with oil or dairy, etc. swearing, being rude to your neighbor etc. etc. It is not what goes in the mouth, but what comes out. If you are fasting, and sinning from that same mouth, Lord, have mercy.

 

[Orthosdoxa]

This kind of fasting is followed by Jews up till this day on Yom Kippur (the Day of Atonement).

Uh, it's followed by us on a number of days of the year, as well. Like today.

 

[MichaelNZ]

Uh, it's followed by us on a number of days of the year, as well. Like today.

I'm on the Old Calendar, so the Beheading of St. John the Baptist won't occur for another 13 days.

 

[Orthosdoxa]

Well then, you're aware of the number of strict fasts we do. OC or NC is not the point.

As far as the rest of it... WHOSE tradition did we break from? We do not do everything by the jot and tittle as the Jews did it. And made up religions like Islam are irrelevant to this discussion.

Animal products increase the passions. That is one reason we stay away from them on fast days.

 

[Monica child of God 1]

MA,

There are different ways of observing the fasts. Under the guidance of your priest you may be advised to eat and drink nothing till noon or 3:00pm, then only Lenten foods on fasting days during the week. This is not at all uncommon. It really depends on the spiritual strength of the individual. Have you read the fasting guidelines on the oca.org site?

1. On weekdays (Monday to Friday inclusive) during the seven weeks of Lent, there are restrictions both on the number of meals taken daily and on the types of food permitted; but when a meal is allowed, there is no fixed limitation on the quantity of food to be eaten.
   1. On weekdays in the first week, fasting is particularly severe. According to strict observance, in the course of the five initial days of Lent, only two meals are eaten, one on Wednesday and the other on Friday, in both cases after the Liturgy of the Presanctified. On the other three days, those who have the strength are encouraged to keep an absolute fast; those for whom this proves impracticable may eat on Tuesday and Thursday (but not, if possible, on Monday), in the evening after Vespers, when they may take bread and water, or perhaps tea or fruit-juice, but not a cooked meal.

1. On weekdays (Monday to Friday inclusive) in the second, third, fourth, fifth and sixth weeks, one meal a day is permitted, to be taken in the afternoon following Vespers, and at this one meal xerophagy is to be observed.
2. Holy Week. On the first three days there is one meal each day, with xerophagy; but some try to keep a complete fast on these days, or else they eat only uncooked food, as on the opening days of the first week. On Holy Thursday one meal is eaten, with wine and oil (i.e., olive oil). On Great Friday those who have the strength follow the practice of the early Church and keep a total fast. Those unable to do this may eat bread, with a little water, tea or fruit-juice, but not until sunset, or at any rate not until after the veneration of the [Plashchanitsa] at Vespers. On Holy Saturday there is in principle no meal, since according to the ancient practice after the end of the Liturgy of St. Basil the faithful remained in church for the reading of the Acts of the Apostles, and for their sustenance were given a little bread and dried fruit, with a cup of wine. If, as usually happens now, they return home for a meal, they may use wine but not oil; for on this one Saturday, alone among Saturdays of the year, olive oil is not permitted.

Again, fasting of any variety should not be undertaken without the guidance of a priest. We begin as babies in the faith perhaps only abstaining from meat and dairy but as we get older, we should expect our disciplines to become more strenuous. But too much will break us or lead us into spiritual pride, in which case our fasting is for nought.

It is important to note that the purpose of fasting in Islam and Orthodox Christianity is not the same. Fasting is an end to itself in Islam as it remits sin. In Orthodox Christianity, fasting is a means to intensify prayer, clear distractions in order to experience Christ in the coming feast and grow the muscle of self control. Fasting in Islam has in mind these benefits but the true goal is to fulfill an obligation and absolve oneself of sin.

M.

 

[Monica child of God 1]

Also, in practice Muslims do not eat less during Ramadan. They just eat before sunrise and after sunset. The amount of food is the same if not more. And there is a lot of food wasted esp. in Islamic countries because people expect to gorge themselves at iftars.

M.

 

[MichaelNZ]

They fast between sunrise and sunset. Before sunrise and after sunset are not fasting times, because it would be fatal to go without food and water at all for a whole month.

And when Christ fasted for 40 days, He didn't just abstain from meat and animal products - He ate nothing at all.

 

[Oblio]

I suggest that you read the pertinent sections in Great Lent by Alexander Schmemann. He goes into detail on the differences between total fasts (of anticipation) and partial fasts (of repentence and ascesis).

 

[Monica child of God 1]

They fast between sunrise and sunset. Before sunrise and after sunset are not fasting times, because it would be fatal to go without food and water at all for a whole month.

Right...I am aware of this. I am making a point that perhaps you haven't considered if you insist on comparing Islam and Orthodox Christianity. That point it is that Orthodox Christians do fast from meals during the day in addition to abstaining from rich, passion stirring foods. Muslims fast for several hours per day, but they actually eat the same or more food and the same kinds of foods. Having experienced both, I would say that the Orthodox form of fasting is actually more difficult because you don't have a banquet laid out for you every night to break your fast. You must endure (if you have been given permission from your priest) for 47 days without the foods we tend to find most comforting, plus fasting during the day. In observing Ramadan you could have an ice-cream sundae for suhoor and a plate full of roast lamb at iftar everyday.

And when Christ fasted for 40 days, He didn't just abstain from meat and animal products - He ate nothing at all.

Yes, but as you noted, we cannot fast completely in the same way for extended periods. Therefore, the Church guidlines state that we take one meal per day Monday through Friday during Great Lent (if we have the strength to do so) if not less. Saturdays and Sundays are days of abstinence but not fasting because of their liturgical character.

M.

 

[Orthosdoxa]

But too much will break us or lead us into spiritual pride, in which case our fasting is for nought.

Worth repeating.

 

[Sothron]

They fast between sunrise and sunset. Before sunrise and after sunset are not fasting times, because it would be fatal to go without food and water at all for a whole month.

And when Christ fasted for 40 days, He didn't just abstain from meat and animal products - He ate nothing at all.

So your newfound appreciation for Islam aside, you don't think its a bit...strange...you criticize Orthodox for not fasting totally like Christ did and yet you point out that doing so would be fatal. Which is it then?

 

[MichaelNZ]

Well, obviously we can't fast like Christ 24/7 because it would kill us. So Islam has proscribed the fast as being a complete fast, like Christ's, but only during daylight hours. That way, people can eat to refuel their bodies before and after it starts. The perfect compromise.

 

[ma2000]

Well, obviously we can't fast like Christ 24/7 because it would kill us. So Islam has proscribed the fast as being a complete fast, like Christ's, but only during daylight hours. That way, people can eat to refuel their bodies before and after it starts. The perfect compromise.

So.... If I fornicate, steal, judge my neighbors, have a fight after sunset, it would be ok. I'd respect the wish of God and I could have fun. That's great!

Seriously, fasting is a tool, not a purpose. You can fast from food and water, if you can. But then, devils never eat or drink and they are not in heaven.

 

[Orthosdoxa]

They don't practice the asceticism of fasting. They just slightly delay their gratification, then can stuff their faces as much as they like. What's so "perfect" about that? Re-read what Monica said about spiritual pride too. If you think a religion has "perfection" just because they don't eat during daylight during one short season a year, but blaspheme Christ 24/7/365, then your priorities are so far out of whack I don't even know where to begin.

 

[Monica child of God 1]

Well, obviously we can't fast like Christ 24/7 because it would kill us. So Islam has proscribed the fast as being a complete fast, like Christ's, but only during daylight hours. That way, people can eat to refuel their bodies before and after it starts. The perfect compromise.

But if you have been told to fast according to the Typikon, you will fast competely from dinner to dinner the next day. Can you not see that this is a complete fast Besides that, for the first week of Lent and Holy Week you will be fasting completely for whole 24 hour periods if you have the strength.

But the most important thing is this: do you believe that God forgives sin because you have fasted? Do you believe that fornication, theft and malice can be forgiven by fasting during Ramadan? And if you do, do you not see how that departs from the teaching of both the Old Covenant and the New? Let's not quibble with arguing about whose fasting is better. Let's get to the heart of the matter. Fasting has never remitted sin in the Old Covenant or the New. Therefore, once again, the theology and praxis of Islam is bidah, an innovation, and violates its own rules.

M.

 

[Monica child of God 1]

MA,

If you convert to Islam, do realize that you will be worshipping a different god. The requirements of Allah are not the requirements of the God of the Bible.

Do you believe that Christ is the eternal Word of God taken flesh or have you tossed that aside?
M.

 

[Monica child of God 1]

I just dug up some info on a fact that I remembered about suhoor (the morning meal during the Ramadan fast).

In the first period of Islam, the duration and regulations of fasting were in accordance with what was legislated by Allah upon the People of the Book [i.e., Jews and Christians]. They were not allowed to eat, drink or engage in sexual intercourse after they slept. That is once one sleeps, he could not eat nor do any of the above until the night of the following day, this implied that they took no Suhoor (Pre-dawn meal).

However, when the above ruling was abrogated, the Messenger (SAW) commanded the Muslims to take the Suhoor (Pre-dawn meal) as a means of being different in our fasting from the fasting of the People of the Book. 'Amr Ibn al-Aas reported that the Messenger of Allah (SAW) said: "The distinguishing feature between our fast and the fast of the People of the Book is in the eating at the time just before dawn." [Muslim] --http://www.lutonmuslims.co.uk/ram_iftaar_suhoor.htm

It is Islam that changes the previous accepted patterns, not Orthodox Christianity.

M.

 

[Lukaris]

I have heard that since the Muslim calendar is lunar, Ramadan can fall in periods of extemely hot weather and causes much anxiety. The Church of Christ knows best for us in matters of fasting and sets parameters for reasons that are holy. There is flexibility within these for health concerns.Personally I try to abstain on Wednesdays but that is my decision within the rules of the church. Fasting and prayer is also necessary to exercise demons that lead one astray to an anti Christ faith.

 

[Orthosdoxa]

devils never eat or drink

EXACTLY. In focusing so much on getting the externals "perfect", one loses the point of the whole thing. The externals are worthless and even damning if the internals they are supposed to promote are lost and replaced by pride in getting an action "perfect".

Do you believe that Christ is the eternal Word of God taken flesh or have you tossed that aside?

I've been wondering that about Michael myself. I'd really like to know.