Fast & Furious

[Assuredcw]

So he didn't approve it, it happened anyway and it's somehow no reflection on him that he didn't stop it despite the fact that he's the head of the department?

So basically he has zero responsibility for anything his subordinates do that's what you are telling us, right?

He does have responsibility. He has responsibility to prosecute.

He doesn't RUN these departments (I have included a link with his job description -- he is NOT the head as you are assuming), but he DOES have to approve anything that affects his ability to prove his case (which gun-running probably does), since he is the chief Federal prosecutor. The field operations have to support the needs of the Justice Dept, so that there is evidence to prove criminal cases in court. They need to check with him before they get a bright idea, for this reason.

It means that people who do things without checking with him first, are potentially in a lot of trouble. It isn't all on him, you know. The ATF, FBI, DEA, etc have their own management, and they need to check with the Prosecutor or THEY pay a penalty. His job title is that of legal advisor to the President as member of his cabinet, and that of chief Federal prosecutor. He is NOT the head of the ATF, and isn't personally responsible for what they have done, especially if they didn't check with him first.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Attorney_General

It's the job description for the US Attorney General. The people who think this is all Eric Holder's fault, should familiarize themselves with this job description. Even if you don't like him, the job description is very specific. He's an attorney, and you'd better ASK him about things before you do them, if you don't want them to blow up. And I am sure he is VERY good at documenting what advice he has given, and to whom. His subordinates know better than that, if they expect us to believe they were acting on his orders or his advice.

I personally feel that someone who is running an ATF program (like the US Attorney of Arizona was doing) that will affect Holder's ability to prosecute, who wouldn't check with him first, is forgetting why the ATF exists in the first place! It is a serious competency issue to NOT check with him first, but it might be even more than that!

 

[RETS]

Quoting the above: "blah, blah... something, something... hot air... end quote."

So he didn't approve it, it happened anyway and it's somehow no reflection on him that he didn't stop it despite the fact that he's the head of the department?

So basically he has zero responsibility for anything his subordinates do that's what you are telling us, right?

Yes. That is exactly what she's telling us.

 

[Assuredcw]

Quoting the above: "blah, blah... something, something... hot air... end quote."



Yes. That is exactly what she's telling us.

You can't hold his feet to the fire, for MORE than his job description says. Even if you don't like him.

There WERE people who were running things without checking with the Attorney General. Since they DIDN'T check with him, we aren't going to get anywhere pretending that they DID.

 

[RETS]

You can't hold his feet to the fire, for MORE than his job description says. Even if you don't like him.

There WERE people who were running things without checking with the Attorney General. Since they DIDN'T check with him, we aren't going to get anywhere pretending that they DID.

And so far, Assured, we only know that via Holder. It's funny, but guilty people will sometimes lie about the level of their involvement. He tampered with evidence in this when he withheld evidence, and all you or anyone else really knows, (unless we've got a mole or more in government), is what he's said.

As for holding his feet to the fire, I am only holding him accountable for his JOB.

 

[Assuredcw]

And so far, Assured, we only know that via Holder. It's funny, but guilty people will sometimes lie about the level of their involvement. He tampered with evidence in this when he withheld evidence, and all you or anyone else really knows, (unless we've got a mole or more in government), is what he's said.

As for holding his feet to the fire, I am only holding him accountable for his JOB.

Just trying to clarify that his job is to give legal advice and to run Federal prosecutions in the Justice Dept.

I would think that anyone who claims that Holder authorized something Holder has gone on record against, would have the burden of proof. Furthermore, his subordinates, including the one who was running the gun-walking program out of Arizona, are all attorneys who know how to cover themselves and provide documentation. Not being able to prove that your boss authorized something, when you yourself are an attorney, is not a good sign, and IMO would not be a reflection on your boss, but on YOU.

 

[RETS]

Just trying to clarify that his job is to give legal advice and to run Federal prosecutions in the Justice Dept.

I would think that anyone who claims that Holder authorized something Holder has gone on record against, would have the burden of proof. <snip>

Stop. Right there. Here's the amazing thing: The burden of proof is unbearable when the man accused of the crime Holds The Keys To The Evidence NEEDED TO PROVE HIS GUILT!

 

[GarfieldJL]

Stop. Right there. Here's the amazing thing: The burden of proof is unbearable when the man accused of the crime Holds The Keys To The Evidence NEEDED TO PROVE HIS GUILT!

Agreed, if nothing else Eric Holder is committing obstruction of justice. DoJ released less than 10% of the documentation concerning Fast & Furious to Congress.

 

[Assuredcw]

Stop. Right there. Here's the amazing thing: The burden of proof is unbearable when the man accused of the crime Holds The Keys To The Evidence NEEDED TO PROVE HIS GUILT!

But he is innocent until proven guilty, and he works for the Justice Dept, many if not most of whom probably are not even of his same political affiliation, let alone Obama appointees. IOW, if he did something, he wouldn't get a free pass just because he is "the boss," because the people who work there are career civil servants and not political appointees.

Horowitz, the Justice Inspector General, is an Obama appointee. But the employees who would have had to assist in his investigation are career civil servants and may not even LIKE President Obama. They will not let Horowitz get away with covering anything up, and then the House would have already had the evidence they would have needed to IMPEACH. So this is why this whole discussion is silly.

It had to be said, because this is getting...silly. Attorney General Eric Holder is temporary -- he will only be there (at least in the capacity of Attorney General) for as long as President Obama is President (if even that long). But the civil servants who work for the Justice Dept have been there for DECADES, and they are not going to mess up their cushy retirements for anyone!

 

[GarfieldJL]

But he is innocent until proven guilty, and he works for the Justice Dept, many if not most of whom probably are not even of his same political affiliation, let alone Obama appointees. IOW, if he did something, he wouldn't get a free pass just because he is "the boss," because the people who work there are career civil servants and not political appointees.

Horowitz, the Justice Inspector General, is an Obama appointee. But the employees who would have had to assist in his investigation are career civil servants and may not even LIKE President Obama. They will not let Horowitz get away with covering anything up, and then the House would have already had the evidence they would have needed to IMPEACH. So this is why this whole discussion is silly.

It had to be said, because this is getting...silly. Attorney General Eric Holder is temporary -- he will only be there (at least in the capacity of Attorney General) for as long as President Obama is President (if even that long). But the civil servants who work for the Justice Dept have been there for DECADES, and they are not going to mess up their cushy retirements for anyone!

Wrong, there is another crime that Holder is guilty of, which is Obstruction of Justice, by stonewalling a Congressional Investigation, he's essentially committing obstruction of justice.

 

[RETS]

Wrong, there is another crime that Holder is guilty of, which is Obstruction of Justice, by stonewalling a Congressional Investigation, he's essentially committing obstruction of justice.

QFT, Assured, QFT.

 

[Assuredcw]

Wrong, there is another crime that Holder is guilty of, which is Obstruction of Justice, by stonewalling a Congressional Investigation, he's essentially committing obstruction of justice.

Yeah, a "Congressional Investigation" as interpreted by Darrel Issa. And I already posted a link to show what people who are knowledgable about precedent think of that "investigation." What I've deduced from seeing all of this, and then reading their opinions, is that Darrel Issa is crazy.

 

[RETS]

Yeah, a "Congressional Investigation" as interpreted by Darrel Issa. And I already posted a link to show what people who are knowledgable about precedent think of that "investigation." What I've deduced from seeing all of this, and then reading their opinions, is that Darrel Issa is crazy.

And who else is going to investigate him, Assured? YOU?

 

[Assuredcw]

And who else is going to investigate him, Assured? YOU?

Once again, the Justice Dept investigates the Justice Dept. It works because the highest level of executive security clearance resides in that branch, so it has to STAY in that branch, and you have not just Obama's (Democratic) appointees, but of course career civil servants involved who were not appointed, many of whom are going to be Republicans so not particularly loyal (or beholden) to Obama or Holder. It can't spill over into the legislative branch unless they get enough from whistleblowers to impeach him. But they can't order classified stuff declassified, in order to doublecheck anything. Of course Issa WANTS to, but there isn't any precedent for that. There is supposed to be a separation between the Executive and Legislative branches. If they could have gotten whistleblowers to provide actual evidence, that would have been a different story because we'd be talking impeachment and removal at that point. But we're not.

Homeland Security's Inspector General is still looking at this, and the report will be out soon. This cross-check was ordered by Rep Michael McCaul (who I suspect understands precedents) in May of last year. So no worries -- someone is even going to be cross-checking the Justice Dept. No one has anything to gain, by covering anything up.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_1...nd-security-ig-investigates-fast-and-furious/

 

[RETS]

Once again, the Justice Dept investigates the Justice Dept.

Of course! Because if Watergate taught us anything, it was that people are ready and willing to investigate their boss- ESPECIALLY when they hold the highest legal position in the nation.

 

[Assuredcw]

Of course! Because if Watergate taught us anything, it was that people are ready and willing to investigate their boss- ESPECIALLY when they hold the highest legal position in the nation.

Let's just see what the Homeland Inspector General has to say. Besides, even Darrell Issa says he does not suspect the President of being complicit in this (Watergate involved the President).

BTW, Justice gets a brand new "boss" every 4 years -- I think they know how to investigate a political appointee.

 

[GarfieldJL]

Once again, the Justice Dept investigates the Justice Dept.

That's like having the Defendent in a murder case being the chief investigator and prosecutor... If you honestly believe that isn't a conflict of interest at the very least, then you're a complete idiot. I'm sorry but there is no way to say it any more polite than that.

It works because the highest level of executive security clearance resides in that branch, so it has to STAY in that branch, and you have not just Obama's (Democratic) appointees, but of course career civil servants involved who were not appointed, many of whom are going to be Republicans so not particularly loyal (or beholden) to Obama or Holder.

Well considering those rank and file people take orders from the political appointees or they get fired, your faith in Obama's DoJ is seriously misplaced to say the least.

Furthermore, Obama's DoJ fired the Whistleblowers, in violation of FEDERAL LAW.
Special Agent Vince Cefalu has worked for the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms for more than 25 years. On top of successfully placing dozens of hard criminals behind bars throughout his career, Cefalu has received promotions and consistently positive evaluations. When he started raising his voice about ATF corruption and illegal wiretapping in 2005, things changed. Tuesday evening, Cefalu was asked to meet Special Agent in Charge of the San Francisco Field Division Joseph Riehl at a Denny's Restaurant near Lake Tahoe. When he arrived, he was served termination papers in the parking lot. Classy move. The exchange was secretly recorded by a confidential source.
VIDEO: Fast & Furious Whistleblower Fired At DENNY's - Home - The Daily Bail


House oversight committee chairman Rep. Darrell Issa and Iowa Republican Sen. Chuck Grassley are asking the Department of Justice’s internal investigator to hold accountable anyone who retaliated against or threatened to retaliate against Operation Fast and Furious whistleblowers.
In a Friday letter to the DOJ’s Inspector General Michael Horowitz, Grassley and Issa said they’re now concerned retaliation is much more likely following Thursday’s votes to hold Attorney General Eric Holder in criminal and civil contempt of Congress.
“We just learned that ATF senior management placed two of the main whistleblowers who have testified before Congress about Fast and Furious under the supervision of someone who vowed to retaliate against them,” they wrote before describing how senior political figures have made dangerous threats before.

Read more: Issa, Grassley release details about Fast and Furious whistleblower retaliation, cover-up | The Daily Caller

Top that off you have a dishonest press corp trying to smear the whistleblowers in order to help with the cover-up.
POLITICO is reporting Fast and Furious whistleblower John Dodson is suing Time Inc. over an article titled "The Truth About Fast and Furious," published in Fortune Magazine and written by Katherine Eban, a former Clinton campaign staffer. Dodson alleges Eban libeled him in the story, where she painted him as unprofessional and as a bad employee.
Time Inc. Sued for Smearing of Fast and Furious Whistleblower - Katie Pavlich

It can't spill over into the legislative branch unless they get enough from whistleblowers to impeach him.

Considering DoJ violated Federal Law by firing and then smearing the Whistleblowers in all of this, I would say that alone is grounds to question the integrity of the entire DoJ.

But they can't order classified stuff declassified, in order to doublecheck anything. Of course Issa WANTS to, but there isn't any precedent for that. There is supposed to be a separation between the Executive and Legislative branches.

Yes and no, Congress actually does have some oversight when it comes to the executive branch. Investigating something like Fast & Furious would fall under the perview of Congressional Oversight and thus Congress investigating Fast & Furious is legit.

If they could have gotten whistleblowers to provide actual evidence, that would have been a different story because we'd be talking impeachment and removal at that point. But we're not.

When they are threatening people if they testify they will face retaliation...

Homeland Security's Inspector General is still looking at this, and the report will be out soon. This cross-check was ordered by Rep Michael McCaul (who I suspect understand precedents) in May of last year. So no worries -- someone is even going to be cross-checking the Justice Dept. No one has anything to gain, by covering anything up.

Homeland Security IG Investigates Fast and Furious - CBS News Investigates - CBS News

Again the Inspector General is a subordinate of Eric Holder and Holder and Obama are the accused, which means he has a conflict of interest.

When the people running Fast & Furious are being promoted, it's fairly obvious that Fast & Furious was intentional, and it's fairly likely that not only did Holder know about it, but odds are Obama knew about Fast & Furious and approved of it.


A senior Republican on the Senate Judiciary Committee on Tuesday described as “inconceivable” a Justice Department decision to promote key Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) personnel who oversaw the controversial “Fast and Furious” weapons investigation that allowed hundreds of guns to be walked into Mexico to new positions in Washington.
Sen. John Cornyn of Texas, who last week demanded that Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr. immediately brief his office regarding the “scope and details of any past or present ATF gun-walking programs” in his state, said until Mr. Holder and the department “come clean” on the gun-walking investigation, “it is inconceivable to reward those who spearheaded this disastrous operation with cushy desks in Washington.”
The ATF has promoted three key supervisors of a controversial sting operation that allowed firearms to be illegally trafficked across the U.S. border into Mexico.


Read more: Senator blasts promotions for ATF&#39;s &#39;Fast and Furious&#39; supervisors - Washington Times
Follow us: @washtimes on Twitter

 

[Assuredcw]

That's like having the Defendent in a murder case being the chief investigator and prosecutor... If you honestly believe that isn't a conflict of interest at the very least, then you're a complete idiot. I'm sorry but there is no way to say it any more polite than that.



Well considering those rank and file people take orders from the political appointees or they get fired, your faith in Obama's DoJ is seriously misplaced to say the least.

Furthermore, Obama's DoJ fired the Whistleblowers, in violation of FEDERAL LAW.
Special Agent Vince Cefalu has worked for the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms for more than 25 years. On top of successfully placing dozens of hard criminals behind bars throughout his career, Cefalu has received promotions and consistently positive evaluations. When he started raising his voice about ATF corruption and illegal wiretapping in 2005, things changed. Tuesday evening, Cefalu was asked to meet Special Agent in Charge of the San Francisco Field Division Joseph Riehl at a Denny's Restaurant near Lake Tahoe. When he arrived, he was served termination papers in the parking lot. Classy move. The exchange was secretly recorded by a confidential source.
VIDEO: Fast & Furious Whistleblower Fired At[bless and do not curse]DENNY's - Home - The Daily Bail


House oversight committee chairman Rep. Darrell Issa and Iowa Republican Sen. Chuck Grassley are asking the Department of Justice’s internal investigator to hold accountable anyone who retaliated against or threatened to retaliate against Operation Fast and Furious whistleblowers.
In a Friday letter to the DOJ’s Inspector General Michael Horowitz, Grassley and Issa said they’re now concerned retaliation is much more likely following Thursday’s votes to hold Attorney General Eric Holder in criminal and civil contempt of Congress.
“We just learned that ATF senior management placed two of the main whistleblowers who have testified before Congress about Fast and Furious under the supervision of someone who vowed to retaliate against them,” they wrote before describing how senior political figures have made dangerous threats before.

Read more: Issa, Grassley release details about Fast and Furious whistleblower retaliation, cover-up | The Daily Caller

Top that off you have a dishonest press corp trying to smear the whistleblowers in order to help with the cover-up.
POLITICO is reporting Fast and Furious whistleblower John Dodson is suing Time Inc. over an article titled "The Truth About Fast and Furious," published in Fortune Magazine and written by Katherine Eban, a former Clinton campaign staffer. Dodson alleges Eban libeled him in the story, where she painted him as unprofessional and as a bad employee.
Time Inc. Sued for Smearing of Fast and Furious Whistleblower - Katie Pavlich



Considering DoJ violated Federal Law by firing and then smearing the Whistleblowers in all of this, I would say that alone is grounds to question the integrity of the entire DoJ.



Yes and no, Congress actually does have some oversight when it comes to the executive branch. Investigating something like Fast & Furious would fall under the perview of Congressional Oversight and thus Congress investigating Fast & Furious is legit.



When they are threatening people if they testify they will face retaliation...



Again the Inspector General is a subordinate of Eric Holder and Holder and Obama are the accused, which means he has a conflict of interest.

When the people running Fast & Furious are being promoted, it's fairly obvious that Fast & Furious was intentional, and it's fairly likely that not only did Holder know about it, but odds are Obama knew about Fast & Furious and approved of it.


A senior Republican on the Senate Judiciary Committee on Tuesday described as “inconceivable” a Justice Department decision to promote key Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) personnel who oversaw the controversial “Fast and Furious” weapons investigation that allowed hundreds of guns to be walked into Mexico to new positions in Washington.
Sen. John Cornyn of Texas, who last week demanded that Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr. immediately brief his office regarding the “scope and details of any past or present ATF gun-walking programs” in his state, said until Mr. Holder and the department “come clean” on the gun-walking investigation, “it is inconceivable to reward those who spearheaded this disastrous operation with cushy desks in Washington.”
The ATF has promoted three key supervisors of a controversial sting operation that allowed firearms to be illegally trafficked across the U.S. border into Mexico.


Read more: Senator blasts promotions for ATF's 'Fast and Furious' supervisors - Washington Times
Follow us: @washtimes on Twitter

The Constitutional law scholars have not criticized Holder's handling of this situation. His files are confidential. He'll speak to you, but he CAN'T let you look at open files.

Washington Times doesn't like him, but they won't address the fact that the Executive and Legislative branches are separate, and Federal law enforcement is one distinct area of separation. No one can MAKE the Attorney General show open Justice Dept files to anyone. They aren't supposed to see them. Even a new AG, should Holder be impeached, is NOT going to show those files.

 

[GarfieldJL]

The Constitutional law scholars have not criticized Holder's handling of this situation. His files are confidential. He'll speak to you, but he CAN'T let you look at open files.

It's called Congressional Subpoena... Your argument might have merit if most of the documents had been turned over, but less than 10% of the documents were turned over to congress... If his files show that he did know about Fast & Furious, then he lied under oath before congress and committed perjury...

Washington Times doesn't like him, but they won't address the fact that the Executive and Legislative branches are separate, and Federal law enforcement is one distinct area of separation. No one can MAKE the Attorney General show open Justice Dept files to anyone. They aren't supposed to see them. Even a new AG, should Holder be impeached, is NOT going to show those files.

That line only goes so far, and to be frank I'm not sure Congress is able to remove Holder without actually impeaching Obama, which I think since Obama used Executive Privledge, that congress should begin the steps to file articles of Impeachment.

 

[SharonL]

They should pull Nixon's records and wipe them clean - what he did was child's play compared to what is happening in this day and time.

 

[Assuredcw]

They should pull Nixon's records and wipe them clean - what he did was child's play compared to what is happening in this day and time.

There is no shortage of potential whistleblowers who would and could leak evidence, if it in fact existed. That is why Holder is innocent unless proven guilty. You don't have control over who would have access to those files in terms of them being loyal to Obama -- most of the people with access are career civil servants who are not beholden to anyone and who have no incentive to cover up any kind of a problem.