Fast & Furious

[RETS]

Not true. Just because Nixon used Executive Privilege, doesn't mean its use is never legitimate.

No one ever said it was NEVER legitimate. EO is used quite often, legitimately.

But you know what's funny?

Those EOs are only REPORTED ON when there's something SCREWY about the circumstances!

 

[TerranceL]

How do you all feel about this???

Darrell Issa: No evidence White House involved in ‘Fast and Furious’ - 2chambers - The Washington Post




They were trying to Crusade against Obama with no reason to believe that he was with holding information. Too bad, game over. looks like this was just another political ploy by the GOP leadership to make Obama look terrible.

LOL

That doesn't mean what you think that means.

That means that the president has no right to invoke executive privilege.

 

[Assuredcw]

That means that the president has no right to invoke executive privilege.

I hate to break it to you - he's done it.

 

[Assuredcw]

No one ever said it was NEVER legitimate. EO is used quite often, legitimately.

But you know what's funny?

Those EOs are only REPORTED ON when there's something SCREWY about the circumstances!

It shouldn't have been necessary to invoke Executive Privilege, because the Justice Dept already possesses sufficient "privilege" to keep those documents confidential. It is only because Issa refuses to recognize Holder's rights (not to mention his responsibilities) in this situation. It was a remaining legal avenue to preserve the confidentiality of Justice Dept files. Translation: Obama had to do this because Darrell Issa is crazy.

I agree that this action is worthy of comment, but for an entirely different reason, as I explained above - LOL!

 

[TerranceL]

I hate to break it to you - he's done it.

I hate to break it to you... well.. no I don't.

The president isn't above the law, this invocation of EP will be seen by history as the same thing as when Nixon did it.

 

[TerranceL]

It shouldn't have been necessary to invoke Executive Privilege, because the Justice Dept already possesses sufficient "privilege" to keep those documents confidential. It is only because Issa refuses to recognize Holder's rights (not to mention his responsibilities) in this situation. It was a remaining legal avenue to preserve the confidentiality of Justice Dept files. Translation: Obama had to do this because Darrell Issa is crazy.

I agree that this action is worthy of comment, but for an entirely different reason, as I explained above - LOL!

You really have no idea how the government runs do you?

It's the Congress job to provide oversight for the government.

I don't know where you got it into your head that the government can do what it wants willynilly and get away with it with zero oversight.

What are they teaching in civics classes today?

 

[Rion]

I hate to break it to you - he's done it.

And now he'll have to deal with the results.

 

[Rion]

I hate to break it to you... well.. no I don't.

The president isn't above the law, this invocation of EP will be seen by history as the same thing as when Nixon did it.

You should change your sig to Nixon morphing into Obama.

 

[Assuredcw]

TerranceL:

You really have no idea how the government runs do you?

It's the Congress job to provide oversight for the government.

Uh, no. Federal Prosecutions do not take place in Congress. They take place in the Justice Dept. Issa cannot supplant the Attorney General, who needs to remain in charge of any investigation that could result in a Federal prosecution. If he doesn't remain firmly in charge, that could affect the ability to even prosecute! We are losing sight of the ultimate goal, here. I keep saying this, but perhaps I could have done a better job at spelling it out. Criminal prosecution is probably the ultimate goal, or at least determining if criminal prosecution would be appropriate. AG Holder has the experience and knowledge to make that determination. Congressman Issa does not.

Furthermore, if you want to catch AG Holder in the act of committing a crime, perhaps it would be more intelligent to keep your mouth shut, stop PUBLICLY accusing him of things you have no proof of, and quietly order an investigation (as McCaul has in fact done). If you think he is guilty, TELLING him will tip him off. But I am far from impressed with Issa's investigation skills, anyway.

 

[Rion]

Rep. Issa Letter to Obama Re: Executive Privilege

Deputy Attorney General Cole’s representation that “the President has asserted executive privilege over the relevant post-February 4, 2011, documents” raised concerns that there wasgreater White House involvement in Operation Fast and Furious than previously thought.
2
Thecourts have never considered executive privilege to extend to internal Executive Branchdeliberative documents.Absent from the Attorney General’s eight-page letter were the controlling authoritiesfrom the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia. As the court held in the seminalcase of In re Sealed Case (Espy):

[FONT=cd9800328d99969f0a013eb0#901000]The privilege should not extend to staff outside the White House in[/FONT][FONT=cd9800328d99969f0a013eb0#901000]executive branch [/FONT][FONT=cd9800328d99969f0a013eb0#901000]agencies. [/FONT]Instead, the privilege should apply only tocommunications authored or solicited and received by those members of an immediate White House adviser’s staff who have broad and significantresponsibility for investigating and formulating the advice to be given thePresident on the particular matter to which the communications relate.​

​

[FONT=cd9800328d99969f0a013eb0#901000]3 [/FONT][FONT=cd9800328d99969f0a013eb0#901000]The D.C. Circuit established the “operational proximity test” to determine whichcommunications are subject to privilege. [/FONT][FONT=cd9800318d998e9e0a013eb0#901000]Espy [/FONT][FONT=cd9800328d99969f0a013eb0#901000]made clear that it is “operational proximity to thePresident that matters in determining whether the president’s confidentiality interest isimplicated.”[/FONT]

[FONT=cd9800328d99969f0a013eb0#901000]4 [/FONT][FONT=cd9800328d99969f0a013eb0#901000]In addition, even if the presidential communications privilege did apply to some of thesesubpoenaed documents, [/FONT][FONT=cd9800318d998e9e0a013eb0#901000]Espy [/FONT][FONT=cd9800328d99969f0a013eb0#901000]made clear that “the presidential communications privilege is, at alltimes, a qualified one,” and that a showing of need could overcome it.[/FONT]

[FONT=cd9800328d99969f0a013eb0#901000]5 [/FONT][FONT=cd9800328d99969f0a013eb0#901000]Such a need — indeed acompelling one — plainly exists in this case.The Justice Department has steadfastly maintained that the documents sought by the[/FONT][FONT=cd9800328d99969f0a013eb0#901000]Committee do not implicate the [/FONT][FONT=cd9800328d99969f0a013eb0#901000]White House whatsoever. [/FONT]If true, they are at best deliberativedocuments between and among Department personnel who lack the requisite “operational proximity” to the President. As such, they cannot be withheld pursuant to the constitutionally- based executive privilege. Courts distinguish between the presidential communications privilegeand the deliberative process privilege. Both, the [FONT=cd9800318d998e9e0a013eb0#901000]Espy [/FONT][FONT=cd9800328d99969f0a013eb0#901000]court observed, are executive privileges [/FONT][FONT=cd9800328d99969f0a013eb0#901000]designed to protect [/FONT][FONT=cd9800328d99969f0a013eb0#901000]the confidentiality of [/FONT][FONT=cd9800328d99969f0a013eb0#901000]Executive Branch decision-making. [/FONT]The deliberative- process privilege, however, which applies to executive branch officials generally, is a commonlaw privilege that requires a lower threshold of need to be overcome, and “disappears altogether when there is any reason to believe government misconduct has occurred.”

[FONT=cd9800328d99969f0a013eb0#901000]6 [/FONT][FONT=cd9800328d99969f0a013eb0#901000]The Committee must assume that the White House Counsel’s Office is fully aware of the prevailing authorities of [/FONT][FONT=cd9800318d998e9e0a013eb0#901000]Espy[/FONT][FONT=cd9800328d99969f0a013eb0#901000], discussed above, and [/FONT][FONT=cd9800318d998e9e0a013eb0#901000]Judicial Watch v. Dep’t of Justice[/FONT][FONT=cd9800328d99969f0a013eb0#901000].[/FONT]

[FONT=cd9800328d99969f0a013eb0#901000]7 [/FONT][FONT=cd9800328d99969f0a013eb0#901000]If theinvocation of executive privilege was proper, it calls into question a number of public statementsabout the involvement of the White House made by you, your staff, and the Attorney General.[/FONT]From the early stages of the investigation, the White House has maintained that no WhiteHouse personnel knew anything about Operation Fast and Furious. Your assertion of executive privilege, however, renews questions about White House involvement.

Rut-roh, Raggy.

 

[TerranceL]

Uh, no. Federal Prosecutions do not take place in Congress. They take place in the Justice Dept. Issa cannot supplant the Attorney General, who needs to remain in charge of any investigation that could result in a Federal prosecution. If he doesn't remain firmly in charge, that could affect the ability to even prosecute! We are losing sight of the ultimate goal, here. I keep saying this, but perhaps I could have done a better job at spelling it out. Criminal prosecution is probably the ultimate goal, or at least determining if criminal prosecution would be appropriate. AG Holder has the experience and knowledge to make that determination. Congressman Issa does not.

Furthermore, if you want to catch AG Holder in the act of committing a crime, perhaps it would be more intelligent to keep your mouth shut, stop PUBLICLY accusing him of things you have no proof of, and quietly order an investigation (as McCaul has in fact done). If you think he is guilty, TELLING him will tip him off. But I am far from impressed with Issa's investigation skills, anyway.

This isn't a federal prosecution.

Good lord.

We already know he's guilty... there's no reason to be quiet.

He told congress, "WHAT ME FAST AND FURIOUS?" and then it was found out that he indeed knew all about it.

That's called perjury.

And now he's busily obstructing justice as quickly as he can.

 

[MachZer0]

Last minute talks with Holder to avoid the contempt vote have failed so the vote is scheduled to go forward

 

[RETS]

I hate to break it to you... well.. no I don't.

The president isn't above the law, this invocation of EP will be seen by history as the same thing as when Nixon did it.

That fact will be glossed over by every Obama/Holder supporter.

You really have no idea how the government runs do you?

It's the Congress job to provide oversight for the government.

I don't know where you got it into your head that the government can do what it wants willynilly and get away with it with zero oversight.

What are they teaching in civics classes today?

Not sure what they're teaching, but I can tell you this: You're fighting a losing battle if you're attempting to make Obama/Holder supporters see reason.

Rep. Issa Letter to Obama Re: Executive Privilege



Rut-roh, Raggy.

Thank you for posting this Rion.

However... Assured's weird and otherworldly response is...?

Last minute talks with Holder to avoid the contempt vote have failed so the vote is scheduled to go forward

Hooooooooo, doooggy! More and more like Watergate by the day!

 

[Assuredcw]

RETS:

However... Assured's weird and otherworldly response is...?

I will let it go without saying what I think of your own responses...I'm trying (single-handedly, it appears) to keep things a little more polite around here.

 

[MachZer0]

Hooooooooo, doooggy! More and more like Watergate by the day!

Except that in Watergate, nobody died

 

[Assuredcw]

To get us back on track, my own response was:

...Federal Prosecutions do not take place in Congress. They take place in the Justice Dept. Issa cannot supplant the Attorney General, who needs to remain in charge of any investigation that could result in a Federal prosecution. If he doesn't remain firmly in charge, that could affect the ability to even prosecute! We are losing sight of the ultimate goal, here. I keep saying this, but perhaps I could have done a better job at spelling it out. Criminal prosecution is probably the ultimate goal, or at least determining if criminal prosecution would be appropriate. AG Holder has the experience and knowledge to make that determination. Congressman Issa does not.

Furthermore, if you want to catch AG Holder in the act of committing a crime, perhaps it would be more intelligent to keep your mouth shut, stop PUBLICLY accusing him of things you have no proof of, and quietly order an investigation (as McCaul has in fact done). If you think he is guilty, TELLING him will tip him off. But I am far from impressed with Issa's investigation skills, anyway.
__________________

It's still true - Holder is the top Federal Prosecutor. Prosecution needs to be the priority if you want justice for Agent Terry. Interfering with AG Holder's investigation for the purpose of checking up on him is delusional when you yourself have no legal training and lack a background in law enforcement (Issa). Have the Inspector General look into it and give you a report, but leave Holder alone. It's not him - it's what he is doing. I'm suspicious of people who claim to care about Agent Terry, who will then take a chance on the people who did this to him not being prosecuted, while they get their pound of flesh out of the guy 10 pay grades above them. It's unspeakable. The people who buy this think Holder runs these depts, and there are entirely too many of these depts for this to be true. He's the queen bee and the drones feed him honey (evidence for his prosecutions). Prosecution is his full-time job.

I am sure he issued revised guidelines about how ATF is supposed to run their operations, because this will affect his ability to use the evidence they collect for him in court. But THAT'S IT.

 

[Assuredcw]

Sam Stein and Nick Wing from the Huffington Post are providing a copy of the letter AG Holder sent to the President, requesting that he invoke Executive Privilege, and many, many other details:

Obama Executive Privilege Asserted Over Fast And Furious Documents

I would urge everyone who isn't sure what to think (that would be 2 of you based on my poll) to take a look at this.

 

[freezerman2000]

Except that in Watergate, nobody died

That may be true, but it sure ruined quite a few political careers and landed some in club fed.

 

[TerranceL]

To get us back on track, my own response was:

And your response was completely and totally irrelevant as this isn't a federal prosectution but a congressional investigation.

 

[MachZer0]

That may be true, but it sure ruined quite a few political careers and landed some in club fed.

With Fast and Furious, day ain't over yet