Falsifiability

[Sanoy]

Do you believe that your mind can exist without your body?

Yes.

 

[Speedwell]

Yes.

Why?

 

[Sanoy]

Why?

I'll make a deal with you. I will happily answer that question if you agree to answer your own question, and follow it up with why (if also yes). Deal? I will even go first.

 

[Speedwell]

I'll make a deal with you. I will happily answer that question if you agree to answer your own question, and follow it up with why. Deal? I will even go first.

I don't care who goes first.

I believe that the mind cannot exist independently of the brain because

1. It seems to be the scientific consensus, that "mind" is an emergent property of the physical brain rather than an independent entity.
2. It is consistent with my religious beliefs.

 

[Sanoy]

I don't care who goes first.

I believe that the mind cannot exist independently of the brain because

1. It seems to be the scientific consensus, that "mind" is an emergent property of the physical brain rather than an independent entity.
2. It is consistent with my religious beliefs.

You list the consensus of scientific opinion, yet you told me earlier that you don't know if the analytic facts described by physics and chemistry refer to synthetic facts, so I assume you are not making a reality claim correct?

I was actually only interested in your reasons if you said yes. Though your second answer has me very curious. Are you referring to soul sleep or something, what religious beliefs are you referring to.

My part.
1. There are 0 scientific reasons to believe it won't survive the body.
2. I have the intuition that it will, which is also tied to my intuition that I am capable of acquiring truths about the world.
3. I have seen a ghost
4. I have seen an angel
5. I have been attacked by evil spirits in the exorcist sense.
6. Information persists the loss of it's original meduim.
7. NDE
8. I can doubt my body
I could go on.

 

[Speedwell]

You list the consensus of scientific opinion, yet you told me earlier that you don't know if the analytic facts described by physics and chemistry refer to synthetic facts, so I assume you are not making a reality claim correct?

With respect to the scientific opinion, correct.

I was actually only interested in your reasons if you said yes. Though your second answer has me very curious. Are you referring to soul sleep or something

Or something. But there is a reason that we swear to a belief in the resurrection of the body.

Information persists the loss of it's original medium.

But it always requires a medium of some sort.

 

[Sanoy]

With respect to the scientific opinion, correct.

Or something. But there is a reason that we swear to a belief in the resurrection of the body.

But it always requires a medium of some sort.

How do you go from the idea of sleep, to lacking a mind though?

Information, as we come to receive it, always does have a medium, but there is nothing about information that suggests that the medium of human information must be a brain, or even matter.

 

[Speedwell]

How do you go from the idea of sleep, to lacking a mind though?

I don't. I don't even understand what you are talking about. Do our minds cease to exist when we sleep?

Information, as we come to receive it, always does have a medium, but there is nothing about information that suggests that the medium of human information must be a brain, or even matter.

I don't think "matter" conveys quite the meaning you are looking for. As usually defined, it excludes photons, for example.

 

[Sanoy]

I don't. I don't even understand what you are talking about. Do our minds cease to exist when we sleep?

I don't think "matter" conveys quite the meaning you are looking for. As usually defined, it excludes photons, for example.

You stated that you don't believe the mind can exist apart from the body. I took that to have been derived from a religious belief in soul sleep. So what religious belief is that derived from?

Yeah, I was actually thinking of photons and Morse code being excluded when I spoke of matter. I'm good with such a use of matter.

 

[Speedwell]

You stated that you don't believe the mind can exist apart from the body. I took that to have been derived from a religious belief in soul sleep. So what religious belief is that derived from?

I never even heard of "soul sleep" until you brought it up. It appears to be some sort of Protestant notion, but I don't see any need for it.

Yeah, I was actually thinking of photons and Morse code being excluded when I spoke of matter. I'm good with such a use of matter.

Then photons can have no information associated with them? Poor Shannon.

 

[Sanoy]

I never even heard of "soul sleep" until you brought it up. It appears to be some sort of Protestant notion, but I don't see any need for it.

Then photons can have no information associated with them? Poor Shannon.

So what is this religious belief you refer to that is consistent with the idea that the mind cannot exist independently of the brain?

 

[46AND2]

Sanoy is just expanding on the philosophical position that there are a few universal "assumptions" that must be made in order to "know" anything. I don't remember what they are, but I think it's something like: that the universe really exists, that we can learn things about it, and that we can make predictions based on the consistencies of the universe. Something like that. And that technically we can't KNOW things about the universe because we have to make those assumptions.

 

[Speedwell]

So what is this religious belief you refer to that is consistent with the idea that the mind cannot exist independently of the brain?

As a general concept it's called "Particular Judgement" and is very popular in one form or another. Personally, I see no need to believe that when we die we must somehow "wait around" for our glorified bodies just because the chronology of the Earth which we have left behind must play out. In other words, fast forward to the Last Trump.

 

[Sanoy]

As a general concept it's called "Particular Judgement" and is very popular in one form or another. Personally, I see no need to believe that when we die we must somehow "wait around" for our glorified bodies just because the chronology of the Earth which we have left behind must play out. In other words, fast forward to the Last Trump.

So this is the idea that you are judged by God immediatly. I can't tell from this theology how it relates to whether our mind can exist independently of our brain. So paint me a picture of how this works, a Christian dies and is cremated. Does that Christian lack a mind, is he immediately transferred to another brain? What happens in your view in respect to whether our minds can exist independently from a brain.

 

[Speedwell]

So this is the idea that you are judged by God immediatly. I can't tell from this theology how it relates to whether our mind can exist independently of our brain. So paint me a picture of how this works, a Christian dies and is cremated.

The same thing that happens if he dies and rots in the ground.

Does that Christian lack a mind, is he immediately transferred to another brain? What happens in your view in respect to whether our minds can exist independently from a brain.

It means that it doesn't necessarily need to.

 

[Sanoy]

It means that it doesn't necessarily need to.

I guess I'll have to ask one question at a time.
1)Does the Christian in this scenario (body dead and cremated) have a mind? (Yes/No)

 

[Speedwell]

I guess I'll have to ask one question at a time.
1)Does the Christian in this scenario (body dead and cremated) have a mind? (Yes/No)

Yes, in the glorified body promised us. Of course, I don't know that it happens that way, but I always thought so, so when I heard that scientists say that the mind doesn't exist without a material substrate it caused me no particular difficulty--that was my only point. Mind you, I am not urging this view on anyone else, but I really don't see why it is difficult to comprehend.

 

[Sanoy]

Yes, in the glorified body promised us. Of course, I don't know that it happens that way, but I always thought so, so when I heard that scientists say that the mind doesn't exist without a material substrate it caused me no particular difficulty--that was my only point. Mind you, I am not urging this view on anyone else, but I really don't see why it is difficult to comprehend.

But if the mind is the brain, then the glorified body is it's own mind. So that is kind of a clone of the Christian right? Where is the persistence of identity?

I'm not really a denominational person, but as I understand it the glorified body will not occur until much later. So if all that we are is our body, then the atheist is correct when he says we cease to exist when we die.

 

[Speedwell]

But if the mind is the brain, then the glorified body is it's own mind.

Or the mind moves from one to the other, the new body being created on a "just in time" basis. I'm sure that none of us knows here below how any of this works. All I am trying to tell you is that, for me, the scientific notion that the mind is an emergent property of the brain does not cause me any concern.

I'm not really a denominational person, but as I understand it the glorified body will not occur until much later.

That's fine, you can believe what you like about it. It's not as if it was a matter of essential doctrine.

 

[Kylie]

In other words, I would have to be able to rationally conclude that what I am experiencing is reality. I don't know how to do that without a premise. I feel I have made my position clear on this question.

You could get other people to check your results. If they get the same results as you, then it's probably reality. After all, if what you experienced was a hallucination or something, then why would they get the same results as you?