False teachers

[dgiharris]

Unless you can understand why this is so you can have no meaningful dialogue with a Biblical Christian. Many OT moral laws were incorporated into Christianity while the civil & ceremonial laws were abolished..

The question I still have is WHY!!!

Why are some things from the OT okay but others not? If the new testament supercedes the OT then why should anything in the OT be considered part of Christianity. For that part, why do we even have an OT?

Christianity today is far different than it was 500 years ago. So does that mean we are all about bunch of heathens and false teachers? Or does it mean that Christianity has evolved? And if Christianity can evolve, then I'd like to think that it has evolved to incorporate homosexuals.

I know, I know, that is basically blasphemous. However, I have to wonder why that cannot be the case.

Science is discovering that homosexuality is NOT a choice, that there is a nature component to it.

For the sake of argument, lets say that homosexual dispositions are genetic and that people are born that way. I simply can't imagine a god that would do that and then make it impossible for said person to live a happy and fulfilling life. Why can't a homosexual love god, love their partner, wish to do right by God and marry his or her partner?

I've read about the struggles of some homosexuals. They were born into strict Christian and/or Conservative homes. All their lives they sincerely tried to be heterosexual, even in many cases getting married, getting therapy, torturing themselves daily struggling against their natures. And then after years, decades even of trying to live a lie they find they can't. Some even go so far as to commit suicide.

My heart truly goes out to those individuals. Can you imagine how lonely and horrible those people have to feel. To feel that not only are they evil and sinful but that god doesn't love them. I honestly can't reconcile that with how I feel about God. Why would god purposefully make a person that is condemned to hell?

I understand why innocent people die, earthquakes, cancer, etc. Mathematically, the universe has to be random. I get that. However, creating an individual who is condemned to hell no matter what to me is something that I can't picture a loving and caring God ever doing.

If you honestly accept god into your heart, and you try to live a righteous life, and you are a homosexual, why couldn't you marry? Why couldn't you enter a covenant with your partner and god and try to do right by the spirit of the bible?

I know I just set myself up for foaming at the mouth Christians to rip that apart... But I have to say, to me, the above just feels right. Speaking of which, lets say God changed his mind about this whole topic and has decided to let gays marry. How would Christianity evolve to incorporate this change? Would we need a tablet to fall out of the sky in order for us to accept the change? Or would pastors and preachers the world over slowly have a change of heart?

 

[Belk]

Truth is this. The LAW is not relevant. SIN is. We are free from the law in Jesus and because of this we do not have to follow the Law, for example wearing different fabrics. Our sins are payed for in Jesus. However, if we continue in them without being born-again, then we are not saved through Jesus. This is the issue, not the Law. It is NOT a matter of when it is convenient for Christians and people misinterpreting the Law of Moses and twisting it so that it seems like Christians only use what they please when it suits them, isn't correct. Homosexuality is considered sin, and is not a piece of the Law, like not wearing mixed fabrics is.

So if you continue in the sin of wearing mixed fabrics or cutting your hair you are hell bound?

 

[Belk]

Sure, there will always be folks who pick and choose what they will take from the Bible.
There will be people who don't even bother to read all of it.
There will be people who twist it around to mean something it never meant at all.

Do those folks actually believe in God?
I wonder....

 

[bhsmte]

QFT!

 

[Cearbhall]

We are free from the law in Jesus and because of this we do not have to follow the Law, for example wearing different fabrics. Our sins are payed for in Jesus. However, if we continue in them without being born-again, then we are not saved through Jesus.

So you don't mix fabrics, then?

To start off, is the multitude of verses condemning this even in the New Testament where Paul explains we are no longer part of the Law. Romans 1:26-27; 1 Corinthians 6:9 Romans 1:26-27 .The simplest reasoning is the fact that it falls under the adultery category. The 10 Commandments still apply to us today, because those are sins and Jesus specifically commanded us to follow them. Homosexuality would in fact fall under the adultery one, if performed outside of marriage. As we know, the Bible explains that God made us male and female and that is how he intends marriage to be, so there is no such thing as a "gay marriage," for God. Therefore because they aren't married according to the way God willed it, they are still considered adulterers.

Please understand, I am not trying to sound like a bigot.

I don't think you're a bigot. You seem sincere in your beliefs, and respectful. I just think you're taking a lot of leaps of logic and perhaps had a predetermined conclusion.

 

[dgiharris]

Funny and sad at the same time...

 

[Cearbhall]

Why would they toss this out under the guise of "love" because condoning and endorsing sin is not love.

I'm sure they're not trying to trick people into going to Hell. They probably just disagree with you.

 

[Leevo]

That´s quite an interpretive effort required for this conclusion - a lot that could be discussed or interpreted otherwise.

I could see that.

So, while you are of course entitled to your interpretation, it´s not like it´s clearly stated in the bible.

It is, did you read none of the verses I mentioned?

More like what you understand the bible to say about this.

Read the verses.

No, it isn´t.

It is when you actually read what it says.

 

[Leevo]

Either you believe in God, or you do not believe in God.
Either the Bible is true, or it is not true.
If you believe in God and in His Word, then you know that homosexuality is an abomination before Him, and that those who do such things are not going to inherit the Kingdom of God, because this is what God has said in His Word.

You wouldn't expect a history teacher to decide that he/she doesn't like, say, the Civil War, so that teacher will just edit that part of history out of the book.
Or a science teacher to decide that they don't like to teach about cell division, so let's just skip that chapter.
We'd fire these teachers, wouldn't we? We'd want them to teach everything that is written in that textbook. We are not interested in your personal opinions, we want you to teach the truth to your classes.

This is sort of the same thing. Teach what is written in the Book.

This.

 

[Leevo]

It is the risen Christ who has the last word about who is or is not a false teacher in the Church -- not any of us. And he addressed two churches in Revelation (Apocalypse) chapter 2, condemning the individuals in those churches who taught others to practice "sexual immorality" by saying that such sin was acceptable. In fact, he condemned the church at Thyatira because they "tolerated that woman Jezebel" in their midst.

David

Amen.

 

[quatona]

It is, did you read none of the verses I mentioned?
Read the verses.
It is when you actually read what it says.

As far as I could tell there was no mentioning - of your key distinction "this is a transgression of the Law" vs. "this is a sin" - even less an elaborate explanation of the criteria how to tell the apart - in them.

 

[Leevo]

Well it is a debate among Christians, so obviously there are those who don't think it's so clear. That's what makes it subjective.

Remember that different groups of Christians take different approaches to the Bible. Not everyone says "That's that" when looking at scripture. Some think that the humans who wrote it were promoting their own culture in some parts rather than God's word. Christianity is a very diverse belief system.

This is true... I never meant for people to get so riled up about my personal thoughts on this. I guess I personally choose to take the Bible for what it says based on 2 Timothy 3:16. "All scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work."

 

[Leevo]

I'm sure they're not trying to trick people into going to Hell. They probably just disagree with you.

Yea, I worded that poorly.

 

[Leevo]

As far as I could tell there was no mentioning - of your key distinction "this is a transgression of the Law" vs. "this is a sin" - even less an elaborate explanation of the criteria how to tell the apart - in them.

I am having trouble explaining this to you. Here is an article that puts it best.

http://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-homosexuality.html

 

[Leevo]

So if you continue in the sin of wearing mixed fabrics or cutting your hair you are hell bound?

That is part of the Law, so no.

 

[Leevo]

So you don't mix fabrics, then?

I honestly have no idea, because that is part of the ceremonial law of Moses and it no longer applies to Christians.

I don't think you're a bigot. You seem sincere in your beliefs, and respectful. I just think you're taking a lot of leaps of logic and perhaps had a predetermined conclusion.

Thank you, I am trying to explain my position to so many, but I think I am doing a poor job of it lol.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

I never understood that..."No True Scotsman" fallacy.
Either one is Scottish, or they aren't. What is the "fallacy" then?

It's a fairly common fallacy named after a famous example of its use:

... a Scotsman ... sees a newspaper article about a series of sex crimes taking place in Brighton, and responds that "no Scotsman would do such a thing." When later confronted with evidence of another Scotsman doing even worse acts, his response is that "no true Scotsman would do such a thing," thus disavowing membership in the group "Scotsman" to the criminal on the basis that the commission of the crime is evidence for not being a Scotsman. However, this is a fallacy as there is nothing in the definition of "Scotsman" which makes such acts impossible.

Google is your friend if you're curious about such things... see NTS Fallacy.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

This is true... I never meant for people to get so riled up about my personal thoughts on this. I guess I personally choose to take the Bible for what it says based on 2 Timothy 3:16. "All scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work."

All scripture? not just the Old & New Testaments of the Bible, but all other scripture too?

 

[quatona]

I am having trouble explaining this to you. Here is an article that puts it best.

http://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-homosexuality.html

That´s the remarkable part about "That´s what the bible clearly says": You have trouble explaining it to me, and it takes a long article with questionable and debatable interpretations to make it say what it "clearly says".

 

[BabylonWeary]

I honestly have no idea, because that is part of the ceremonial law of Moses and it no longer applies to Christians.

If the churches can abolish all the laws of Moses, which includes the promise of Messiah, then how can the churches be certain of anything? We do very poorly to follow God's commandments, so maybe this is the opportunity God has given us to reconsider the direction in which the churches are going with respect to the Sabbath, dietary laws, mixing fabrics, etc.