False Prophets

[The Liturgist]

Well you could always try a different approach.

1. Assume everyone is a false prophet.
2. Identify the true prophets.

On second thought, maybe we shouldn't.

Actually, assuming everyone claiming to be a prophet is potentially lying is a prudent and Scriptural approach. Are we not told to “test every spirit”?

 

[The Liturgist]

I have seen some stuff out of the Prophetic movement in the Charismatic movement that has caused me some concern. Overall though I have been more concerned with people who have things like Narcistic Personality Disorder and other kinds of related disorders taking advantage of certain Bible passages and Christian culture etc. I encountered 2 pastors who I think had an orientation like that in my past and it was very educational to say the least.

Help!, My Pastor is a Narcissist


For that I note a few things to beware of when dealing with such people even when you think you got them "dead to rights" these little tricks they do to bamboozle you.


1) People who call you to have strict accountability but kind of do whatever they want because they are "the shepherd", "have the anointing" etc. Our relationships including in the Church should be a two way streets and not one way streets where leadership is exempt because they are a special chosen person.


2) Motive Questioning to side step problems. In Philippians saint Paul said he was OK with people preaching the Gospel for selfish gain, or to get him in trouble with the authorities etc. because "at least the Gospel is being preached". Anyway Biblical truth is valuable no matter what the motivation but I point this out because of motive questioning as a cheap tactic to derail and distract you by such people.


3) The use of the "Go to your brother in Secret" gospel verse claimed when you are complaining about stuff they are doing in public! This is another cheap trick that can easily bamboozle someone confronting such folks for their very blatant and often open misdeeds if they are not prepared for it.


4) If you really got them locked in they will probably push your buttons if you are prone to empathy saying "That you judged them etc." and acting like they have severe hurt feelings etc. which will suck you in if you are Mercy gift etc. Be careful of this. It is best to not overplay or exaggerate any claims you make against, and be as professional as possible when you first deal with them. But beware, they can really pull at your heart strings and will use this as there last ditch attempt to put you under their thumb. (They however are not very smart, and will immediately gloat over such a victory which may help to wake you up that you were manipulated).

I have heard particularly grave concerns about the New Apostolic Reformation movement, and there is one notorious church in Redding, Bethel Church I think its called, which has introduced some really bizarre practices, like “Grave Soaking.”

 

[Hazelelponi]

...

 

[Pavel Mosko]

I have heard particularly grave concerns about the New Apostolic Reformation movement, and there is one notorious church in Redding, Bethel Church I think its called, which has introduced some really bizarre practices, like “Grave Soaking.”

Bethel isn't as bad as some make it out to be. One big problem I have seen other churches do is using prophetic words to manipulate offerings much like what the Didache actually speaks about .
http://www.pas.rochester.edu/~tim/study/DidacheAndProphets.pdf

I have seen situations that remind me of a great social psychology book, Influence, where they engineered to extract the desired amount by saying claiming some kind of "word" or witness to that affect, and then pausing for minutes.... as the music plays, and wait for someone to eventually volunteer, and then another one, and another one as the bandwagon affect/ herd affect of Social Proof takes hold.

Influence — The Psychology of Persuasion — A Book Summary



I'm actually sort of impressed by the senior pastor of Bethel after having a bad impression of him for years from hearing sound bites etc. He is very conscious of "God's Economy" when he preaches. He understands things like God is not subject to time, but is apart for it. Even my (WELS) Lutheran pastor of my original Confirmation class in puberty had problems with that one, aka "What was God doing before He created the World?" He basically told a cute little story that his pastor also used "that God was making switches to switch little boys who ask those kinds of questions".


The grave soaking is weird and would be better if they didn't do it, but after having people throw stones at Copts having relics and occasional saintly apparitions I tread lightly here.


I guess the biggest problematic thing they do is have lots of prophecies that don't come to pass. Apologist Nabeel Qureshi was someone I followed a lot around the time of his sickness from cancer and death and he had a lot to say about them when visiting the church.

 

[fhansen]

Exactly because they follow a self identifying tradition designed to promote themselves as authoritative.

Actually, both the eastern and western churches just follow ancient ways, including the garb that identifies clergy, as well as teaching the original old time religion. Most priests simply aren't the self-aggrandizing type by any means. Nor do they flaunt authroity as a rule.

 

[TheWhat?]

Actually, assuming everyone claiming to be a prophet is potentially lying is a prudent and Scriptural approach. Are we not told to “test every spirit”?

First assuming everyone is a false prophet, considering the prescription for false prophets, that was heading in a direction that was a little too dark even for my own bad sense of humor.

 

[timothyu]

Actually, both the eastern and western churches just follow ancient ways, including the garb that identifies clergy, as well as teaching the original old time religion. Most priests simply aren't the self-aggrandizing type by any means. Nor do they flaunt authroity as a rule.

Middle men who protect their 'church' institutions at a cost to the Kingdom and expect their parishioners to do likewise.

 

[TheWhat?]

There are three instances I know of off the top of my head.

A "real" prophet arises that leads others to go serve some other god(s) (Deuteronomy 13)

I've never encountered one of these performing real miracles, but then I don't go carousing in places they might be, and I can't say much about them.
​

A presumptuous prophet who prophesies in the name of God (Deuteronomy 18:22 -- not commanded to be put to death here).

There are plenty of these around. Their embarrassment should be punishment enough, in my opinion.
​

A corrupt prophet, like Balaam, also emphasized in the NT.

The OT treats him as a real prophet, not a fraud. He wasn't executed but apparently killed for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. There are perhaps plenty of these to go around, but I would not consider a corrupt fraud to be a Balaam. Maybe in spirit, but a real disobedient prophet can be in danger with God in other ways.
​

Then there are corrupt teachers who are complete frauds.

Should false teachers be considered prophets? I don't know, and I don't really care.

​

My personal opinion is that there is a kind of unwritten difference between someone with the gift of prophecy and the office of a prophet. Even though Paul instructs the church to desire prophecy, one perhaps should not seek the office, because, for one, the church is a very different context as compared to the ancient Hebrew nation that received these commands. Exalting one's self is not without consequences, which an aspiring prophet may come to learn quickly.

I don't really want to discourage folks who believe they have the gift of prophecy, but it should be obvious that the stakes, whether in the church or otherwise, are high with God. What purpose does it serve to occupy the office of prophet? It seems pointless to me, except unless to protect parishioners from potential consequences for not recognizing the reality of the body of Christ, etc., but then I wouldn't say the office itself is beneficial -- I think earthly authoritarianism is a hindrance.

Then there are those occasions where anyone, I don't care who you are, may feel compelled under threat of being punished yourself if you did not speak what you were given to. Anyone playing prophet who isn't really compelled in that way might not be acting out of the right motives.

In the church, the whole thing really ought to just take care of itself, in my opinion.

​

 

[topher694]

Actually, assuming everyone claiming to be a prophet is potentially lying is a prudent and Scriptural approach. Are we not told to “test every spirit”?

No, starting from a place of assuming they are lying is not the test and is in violation of other scriptural priciples.

 

[TheWhat?]

There are three instances I know of off the top of my head.

A "real" prophet arises that leads others to go serve some other god(s) (Deuteronomy 13)

I've never encountered one of these performing real miracles, but then I don't go carousing in places they might be, and I can't say much about them.
​

A presumptuous prophet who prophesies in the name of God (Deuteronomy 18:22 -- not commanded to be put to death here).

There are plenty of these around. Their embarrassment should be punishment enough, in my opinion.
​

A corrupt prophet, like Balaam, also emphasized in the NT.

The OT treats him as a real prophet, not a fraud. He wasn't executed but apparently killed for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. There are perhaps plenty of these to go around, but I would not consider a corrupt fraud to be a Balaam. Maybe in spirit, but a real, disobedient prophet can be in danger with God in other ways.
​

Then there are corrupt teachers who are complete frauds.

Should false teachers be considered prophets? I don't know, and I don't really care.

​

My personal opinion is that there is a kind of unwritten difference between someone with the gift of prophecy and the office of a prophet. Even though Paul instructs the church to desire prophecy, one perhaps should not seek the office, because, for one, the church is a very different context as compared to the ancient Hebrew nation that received these commands. Exalting one's self is not without consequences, which an aspiring prophet may come to learn quickly.

I don't really want to discourage folks who believe they have the gift of prophecy, but it should be obvious that the stakes, whether in the church or otherwise, are high with God. What purpose does it serve to occupy the office of prophet? It seems pointless to me, except unless to protect parishioners from potential consequences for not recognizing the reality of the body of Christ, etc., but then I wouldn't say the office itself is beneficial -- I think earthly authoritarianism is a hindrance.

Then there are those occasions where anyone, I don't care who you are, may feel compelled under threat of being punished yourself if you did not speak what you were given to. Anyone playing prophet who isn't really compelled in that way might not be acting out of the right motives.

In the church, the whole thing really ought to just take care of itself, in my opinion.

​

A couple of additional examples that came to mind:

I suspect Pharaoh's magicians of being an example of the first case of a false prophet that prophesies in the name of some other god(s).

There is also the girl with the spirit of divination in Acts 16. I suspect this may be more common than we like to think. Bear in mind, one of the fruits of the Spirit is a sound mind.

There is one other thing of a more personal nature which I'll share here -- take it with a grain of salt. I've said elsewhere on this forum that I once had a run-in with the evil one. Well, I just recalled another suspect incident. I'm someone affected by OCD. It had worsened in response to anger over social media and other christian sources I used to go to for aid. Last year at about the time Covid hit the U.S. in March, I was going through a severe point in what I interpret to be demonic oppression. During that spell I had a vivid dream one night. There was something like the marching of armies, and I was caught up into it, like I was going to war, then it was like I was overpowered by a spiritual force and filled with a feeling I can only call unholy rage. In the dream, I could see people off in the distance, looking down at the encroaching armies. They were very calm and placid. At that moment, the evil spirit moved me to say something like "your city will fall." And then it ended. Thankfully I don't think I was possessed by it -- I was back to my "normal" oppressed self the next morning.

Shortly before that point I had made plans to go on a trip abroad. A relative of mine called me about that trip within a day or two and for no real reason erupted into that same unholy rage. That trip was cancelled as when renewing my passport, the passport office was closed due to Covid on the day of. It didn't take long before it seemed that the entire nation erupted into violence, afflicted, again, with that same unholy rage I witnessed. And it's on both sides. Political boundaries seem to matter little to the forces at work behind the scenes, and as much as I hate to say it, it also appears to me to be the same rage behind even christian voices which were contributing to my OCD and oppression.

I think I was lucky that God pulled me out of it.

 

[The Liturgist]

No, starting from a place of assuming they are lying is not the test and is in violation of other scriptural priciples.

Assuming they are lying would be too strong an expression; I believe we should rather view self proclaimed prophets with unemotional skepticism.

 

[fhansen]

Middle men who protect their 'church' institutions at a cost to the Kingdom and expect their parishioners to do likewise.

Well, you have confidence-I'll say that-even if it comes at a cost to truth because it's not connected to knowledge. I've met lukewarm priests who seem to just be putting in time, priests with hearts burning for God, and a rogue or two. But they all represented the true gospel, whether or not were heeding it themselves, the gospel which was perverted by new and novel teachings fostered by a variety of figures supposedly basing their beliefs on Scipture alone while often disagreeimg quite seriously with each other.

 

[timothyu]

But they all represented the true gospel

If they are representing Jesus' Gospel of the Kingdom then why did they never turn back from the traitorous act over 1700 years ago when the church abandoned the Kingdom of God to re-join the kingdoms of man in an unholy partnership.

 

[fhansen]

If they are representing Jesus' Gospel of the Kingdom then why did they never turn back from the traitorous act over 1700 years ago when the church abandoned the Kingdom of God to re-join the kingdoms of man in an unholy partnership.

Thats pop mythology. Constantine simply legitimized Christianity, along with other religions, with the Edict of Milan. The church continued to hold to her own teachings, voting against the emperor’s pet Arian belief at Nicaea, incidentally. And those basic teachings remained the same and consistent with eastern church teachings BTW, through the tenure of good and bad popes, any political intrigue church members engaged in while becoming the glue that held society together through the dark ages when the Roman Empire fell into a politically fragmented mess. Schools, orphanages, hospitals, the university system- altruism as a new ideal-all developed by the big bad Catholic Church.

 

[Ceallaigh]

So for instance, thousands of years of ceremony and the blind leading the blind promoting tradition, would be considered more reliable?

More like latter-day unorthodox fringe theology is far less reliable.

 

[timothyu]

More like latter-day unorthodox fringe theology is far less reliable.

Everything gets led back to the will and ways of man eventually

 

[topher694]

Assuming they are lying would be too strong an expression; I believe we should rather view self proclaimed prophets with unemotional skepticism.

The test is looking for fruit, especially love, not looking for lying and skepticism.

 

[The Liturgist]

The test is looking for fruit, especially love, not looking for lying and skepticism.

I am not looking for lying so much as I am looking for spiritual delusion or demonic oppression. You know, demons do routinely deceive extremely pious Christians; Ida Peerdeman was tricked into believing she was interacting with St. Mary, but the entity which called itself “the Lady, formerly known as Mary” demanding that Ida Peerdeman promote the idea of the “Fifth Dogma” in the Roman Catholic Church (which she did) engaged in threatening behavior including raising a clenched fist, and for these and other reasons, has always been regarded as “unworthy of belief” by the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith, although some Roman Catholics do believe in that apparition, and campaign for the Fifth Dogma, which is to declare Mary co-redemptrix, which would of course be a gross theological error as bad as Nestorianism or antidicomarianism, on a par with Collyridianism (Nestorians deny Mary is the Theotokos, or birth giver to God, antidicomarians were a fourth century sect which refused to venerate her, and Collyridians were another fourth century sect which worshipped her, and all three of these belief systems were condemned as heretical by the early church in the late fourth century and at the Council of Ephesus in 433 AD.

 

[Francis Drake]

Matthew 7:15 - Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

...

1. How to identify false prophets.

2. What steps can we take to prevent being fooled by their lies.

In my experience, the type of person likely to be a false prophet delights in putting others down, in the flawed notion doing so lifts themselves higher. They love to negatively label and slander innocents.

They are more comfortable with lies, than truth. Lies come easy to them. While truth is difficult if not impossible for them to find.

They believe reducing the rights and freedoms of others paves the road to future progress and prosperity. Stripping women of the right to vote, stripping americans of the right to bear arms and similar movements which reduce opportunities and prosperity in the world are their favorite things. They are fanatically goal oriented in terms of finding ways for governments to assume greater power at the expense of overall rights, freedom and privacy.

They seek to control everyone and are chronically unable to control themselves.

They want money and power and to make all the important decisions. Then blame everyone except themselves if they make poor choices and are unhappy with the results.

They stand for nothing and fall for everything. They are fooled by every deception and support every horrible idea and terrible candidate who comes along. And lack the self awareness to realize it.

...

Long story short, have you had experiences with false prophets you would care to share. Any advice, tips or insights would be appreciated.

These things are nothing to do with the prophetic ministry or false "prophets", just bad leadership

 

[topher694]

I am not looking for lying so much as I am looking for spiritual delusion or demonic oppression. You know, demons do routinely deceive extremely pious Christians; Ida Peerdeman was tricked into believing she was interacting with St. Mary, but the entity which called itself “the Lady, formerly known as Mary” demanding that Ida Peerdeman promote the idea of the “Fifth Dogma” in the Roman Catholic Church (which she did) engaged in threatening behavior including raising a clenched fist, and for these and other reasons, has always been regarded as “unworthy of belief” by the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith, although some Roman Catholics do believe in that apparition, and campaign for the Fifth Dogma, which is to declare Mary co-redemptrix, which would of course be a gross theological error as bad as Nestorianism or antidicomarianism, on a par with Collyridianism (Nestorians deny Mary is the Theotokos, or birth giver to God, antidicomarians were a fourth century sect which refused to venerate her, and Collyridians were another fourth century sect which worshipped her, and all three of these belief systems were condemned as heretical by the early church in the late fourth century and at the Council of Ephesus in 433 AD.

It's much easier to just do as Jesus said and look for the fruit, or lack thereof.