False Converts

[FreeGrace2]

Who said it died?

Really???! You sure implied that by your term "dead faith".

A "dead faith" must have died, or it CAN'T be called a "dead faith".

So, again, when did that dead faith die? If you can't point to a point in time when the faith died, then don't call it a dead faith. Try something else.

 

[Hammster]

Really???! You sure implied that by your term "dead faith".

A "dead faith" must have died, or it CAN'T be called a "dead faith".

So, again, when did that dead faith die? If you can't point to a point in time when the faith died, then don't call it a dead faith. Try something else.

I didn't say a faith that died. I said dead faith.

Here James lays it out.

What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. (James 2:14-17 ESV)

In b. 14, James asks a rhetorical question. The obvious answer is "no". Three verses later he refers to that same "faith" as dead. There no need to think that the "faith" was once alive. He's just painting a picture.

 

[OzSpen]

This is just not a friendly place for Armenians.

I hope you mean Arminians. Armenians are from the country of Armenia.

Yes, there can be some hostility towards those of us who are Arminian, but I think the 'battle' lines have happened both ways. It's a call for all Arminians to know their theology - from its biblical foundations.

I hope you will continue to post and debate, even though there is hostility towards us (I am a Reformed Arminian).

 

[cygnusx1]

Is there such a thing as a false convert, one that may look like a convert, but really they aren't saved? They may even know a bunch of doctrine, or said a prayer at an invitation, and say and do the right things. But inwardly, there is no new birth or growth.

Yes , simon magus , in Acts believed and was baptised and then decided to offer money for the Spirits power , he was told he had no part in the Church ...

 

[FreeGrace2]

I didn't say a faith that died. I said dead faith.

What's the difference. If something is described as "dead", that MEANS it died.

Here James lays it out.

What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. (James 2:14-17 ESV)

In b. 14, James asks a rhetorical question. The obvious answer is "no". Three verses later he refers to that same "faith" as dead. There no need to think that the "faith" was once alive. He's just painting a picture.

Please don't forget another picture he painted, in order to emphasize the issue of dead vs alive.

James 2:26
For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

Here, James uses the analogy of a living vs a dead body. When the spirit leaves the body, we call that body a DEAD body. iow, it has DIED. No longer functions.

The analogy is clear. A faith without works is DEAD. iow, it has DIED. No longer functions.

So, I'll ask you again regarding this "dead faith" that you mentioned: when did it DIE?

I'm pretty sure RT doesn't have an answer for this question because RT considers a "dead faith" to be merely another description of a "false/spurious/yada yada faith".

If that were true, then when your spirit leaves your body, we can consider your body to be a false/spurious body. Sounds kinda nutty, huh.

So, please don't ignore or dodge the parallel that James finishes his passage about dead faith.

In order to be dead, it HAD to be alive first.

So, when did this dead faith die?

 

[Hammster]

What's the difference. If something is described as "dead", that MEANS it died.


Please don't forget another picture he painted, in order to emphasize the issue of dead vs alive.

James 2:26
For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

Here, James uses the analogy of a living vs a dead body. When the spirit leaves the body, we call that body a DEAD body. iow, it has DIED. No longer functions.

The analogy is clear. A faith without works is DEAD. iow, it has DIED. No longer functions.

So, I'll ask you again regarding this "dead faith" that you mentioned: when did it DIE?

I'm pretty sure RT doesn't have an answer for this question because RT considers a "dead faith" to be merely another description of a "false/spurious/yada yada faith".

If that were true, then when your spirit leaves your body, we can consider your body to be a false/spurious body. Sounds kinda nutty, huh.

So, please don't ignore or dodge the parallel that James finishes his passage about dead faith.

In order to be dead, it HAD to be alive first.

So, when did this dead faith die?

He compares faith that is alive with faith that is dead. That's all. Nowhere does he indicate that the dead faith was once alive.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Yes , simon magus , in Acts believed and was baptised and then decided to offer money for the Spirits power , he was told he had no part in the Church ...

So, how does that equate to being not saved. When the Bible tells us that someone "believed", what in the world were they believing in, if not Jesus Christ for eternal life? The context nearly SCREAMS that the people were believing in Jesus from the ministry of Philip:

Acts 8:12
But when they believed Philip preaching the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were being baptized, men and women alike.
Acts 8:13
Even Simon himself believed; and after being baptized, he continued on with Philip, and as he observed signs and great miracles taking place, he was constantly amazed.

There is no reason to think that Simon didn't put his faith in Jesus Christ, along with the rest of the people who did. In fact, it would be irrational to think otherwise.

 

[DeaconDean]

So, how does that equate to being not saved. When the Bible tells us that someone "believed", what in the world were they believing in, if not Jesus Christ for eternal life? The context nearly SCREAMS that the people were believing in Jesus from the ministry of Philip:

Acts 8:12
But when they believed Philip preaching the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were being baptized, men and women alike.
Acts 8:13
Even Simon himself believed; and after being baptized, he continued on with Philip, and as he observed signs and great miracles taking place, he was constantly amazed.

There is no reason to think that Simon didn't put his faith in Jesus Christ, along with the rest of the people who did. In fact, it would be irrational to think otherwise.

Here is an answer.

What are the fruits of salvation?

How do we tell true Christians from those who have yet to receive salvation? The Bible, which we Christians believe to be the Word of God, suggests it clearly: Salvation manifests.

While we affirm that a display of good works and virtues does not lead to salvation, it is our firm conviction that the saving grace of Jesus Christ turns a person from being a sinner into a wonderful new creation.

This article, however, does not seek to throw judgment on how other Christians behave but only encourages an evaluation of how we apply Christian virtues in our daily lives.

Among these virtues are love, faith, righteousness, humility, compassion, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, selflessness, self-control, temperance, respect, hospitability, thankfulness, charity, forgiveness and purity of heart. The apostle Paul said: "Overall these virtues, put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.

Salvation is a result of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God who assumed a bodily form and offered Himself as a sacrifice for our sins.

Source

Where are the "fruits of salvation" in Simon Magus?

Acts 8: 18-23 (KJV)

"And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost. But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money. Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God. Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee. For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity."

Can somebody be saved and be:

1. thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
2. neither part nor lot in this matter:
3. heart is not right in the sight of God.
4. the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
5. in the gall of bitterness
6. and in the bond of iniquity.

?

No sir, I do not see Simon Magus as being saved.

Scriptures do not support it.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[AndOne]

I didn't say a faith that died. I said dead faith.

Here James lays it out.

What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. (James 2:14-17 ESV)

In b. 14, James asks a rhetorical question. The obvious answer is "no". Three verses later he refers to that same "faith" as dead. There no need to think that the "faith" was once alive. He's just painting a picture.

Suddenly I have déjà vu

 

[sdowney717]

Here is an answer.

What are the fruits of salvation?



Source

Where are the "fruits of salvation" in Simon Magus?

Acts 8: 18-23 (KJV)

"And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost. But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money. Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God. Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee. For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity."

Can somebody be saved and be:

1. thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
2. neither part nor lot in this matter:
3. heart is not right in the sight of God.
4. the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
5. in the gall of bitterness
6. and in the bond of iniquity.

?

No sir, I do not see Simon Magus as being saved.

Scriptures do not support it.

God Bless

Till all are one.

He certainly exhibited many fruits of the flesh and was also declared to be wicked by Peter. Peter did tell him to repent and perhaps God would forgive Simon Magus. The 'perhaps God might forgive you' type phrase has to do with repentance must be granted by God. For those he has great love for,making them alive who are dead, they have been granted to repentance and have faith towards God, that being God's gift to them that they may have eternal life.

"Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee."

Christians are forgiven their sins against God, but Peter here says the man needs forgiveness of his sins.

 

[sdowney717]

John 12

42 Nevertheless even among the rulers many believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they did not confess Him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue; 43 for they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.

Were such persons saved?
They believed in Him but would not confess Him before men.

Such person Jesus says

Matt 10:32

“Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven. 33 But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.

So their supposed belief had no fruit of the Spirit behind it showing that they will not be saved.
They were not born again regenerated believers. Because born again regenerated believers will confess Him as Lord because they say or speak aloud Jesus is Lord because of the Holy Spirit.

 

[FreeGrace2]

He compares faith that is alive with faith that is dead. That's all. Nowhere does he indicate that the dead faith was once alive.

That's being quite superficial, to say the least. James finishes his dissertation on dead faith with the parallel analogy of the human body.

Just as human bodies begin and die, so also one's faith begins and can die.

James didn't have to indicate that a dead faith was once alive. This is so obvious as to be taken for granted. But RT cannot answer the question about when a dead faith dies.

How about this: Jesus made mention of "believing for a while" in Luke 8:13. What happened after "a while"? Was there any faith, from what Jesus did say? It should be obvious that the initial faith didn't continue. iow, it "died". There is no other way to describe it.

Your approach must be superficial at most, in order to avoid having to face the consequences of your own views.

So I'll tell you when a faith dies: when the person no longer believes.

Now, that said, you have to face the obvious. Since the Bible only deals with faith in Christ, or believing in Christ, both of which are saving faith, either one loses salvation when their faith dies, or they stay saved even if their faith dies.

Arminians believe that if one's faith ceases (dies), their salvation is lost.
RT believes that if one's faith ceases, proves it was never true "saving faith".

Yet, Scripture NEVER makes such a distinction between a faith that saves and a faith that does not save. When the Bible mentions faith or believing, the context is ALWAYS in Jesus Christ, which makes it saving faith.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Here is an answer.

What are the fruits of salvation?

While an evidence, as James said, is not proof of salvation.

No sir, I do not see Simon Magus as being saved.

Scriptures do not support it.

In fact, the context indicates that not only Simon, but the people believed and were baptized. If Simon had not exercised saving faith, the Bible would have been clear. The context indicates that the people and Simon believed, and therefore, were saved. The problem is that he continued to have hangups, not that he wasn't saved.

Question: if he wasn't saved, why on earth would he have asked Peter this:

Acts 8:24
But Simon answered and said, “Pray to the Lord for me yourselves, so that nothing of what you have said may come upon me.”

And why on earth did Peter tell him this:

Acts 8:20
But Peter said to him, “May your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money!
Acts 8:21
“You have no part or portion in this matter, for your heart is not right before God.
Acts 8:22
“Therefore repent of this wickedness of yours, and pray the Lord that, if possible, the intention of your heart may be forgiven you.
Acts 8:23
“For I see that you are in the gall of bitterness and in the bondage of iniquity.”

That's not what one should say to one who is not saved. No amount of "repenting of wickedness" saves anyone. They need to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved. Acts 16:31

Bottom line that is beyond dispute: The Bible SAYS that Simon himself believed, and in this context:

Acts 8:12
But when they believed Philip preaching the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were being baptized, men and women alike.
Acts 8:13
Even Simon himself believed; and after being baptized, he continued on with Philip, and as he observed signs and great miracles taking place, he was constantly amazed.

The obvious fact is that Simon believed what the "men and women alike" believed: the good news about the kngdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ.

That, my friend, IS saving faith.

Simon was saved, in spite of his imperfections.

 

[Hammster]

That's being quite superficial, to say the least. James finishes his dissertation on dead faith with the parallel analogy of the human body.

Just as human bodies begin and die, so also one's faith begins and can die.

James didn't have to indicate that a dead faith was once alive. This is so obvious as to be taken for granted. But RT cannot answer the question about when a dead faith dies.

How about this: Jesus made mention of "believing for a while" in Luke 8:13. What happened after "a while"? Was there any faith, from what Jesus did say? It should be obvious that the initial faith didn't continue. iow, it "died". There is no other way to describe it.

Your approach must be superficial at most, in order to avoid having to face the consequences of your own views.

So I'll tell you when a faith dies: when the person no longer believes.

Now, that said, you have to face the obvious. Since the Bible only deals with faith in Christ, or believing in Christ, both of which are saving faith, either one loses salvation when their faith dies, or they stay saved even if their faith dies.

Arminians believe that if one's faith ceases (dies), their salvation is lost.
RT believes that if one's faith ceases, proves it was never true "saving faith".

Yet, Scripture NEVER makes such a distinction between a faith that saves and a faith that does not save. When the Bible mentions faith or believing, the context is ALWAYS in Jesus Christ, which makes it saving faith.

Well, except perhaps in James.

What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. (James 2:14, 17 ESV)

When you compare v. 14 to v. 17 without the examples, it's obvious James is equating said faith with dead faith.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Well, except perhaps in James.

There are no exceptions in Scripture.

What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. (James 2:14, 17 ESV)

When you compare v. 14 to v. 17 without the examples, it's obvious James is equating said faith with dead faith.

Doesn't matter how many times one quotes 2:14. By ignoring/denying 2:26, one misses the whole concept of what a dead faith is. It is one that has ceased to be fruitful. Which it is supposed to be.

Your failure to interact with my points about 2:26 speak volumes.

 

[Hammster]

There are no exceptions in Scripture.


Doesn't matter how many times one quotes 2:14. By ignoring/denying 2:26, one misses the whole concept of what a dead faith is. It is one that has ceased to be fruitful. Which it is supposed to be.

Your failure to interact with my points about 2:26 speak volumes.

I don't need to interact with it. By ignoring/denying v. 14, you miss the whole concept because James is clear in 14-17 that said faith is dead faith. You've not shown where he says faith dies because it's not there.

 

[rockytopva]

Well, except perhaps in James.

What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. (James 2:14, 17 ESV)

When you compare v. 14 to v. 17 without the examples, it's obvious James is equating said faith with dead faith.

And to continue the scripture reading...

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. - James 2:24

 

[FreeGrace2]

I don't need to interact with it. By ignoring/denying v. 14, you miss the whole concept because James is clear in 14-17 that said faith is dead faith. You've not shown where he says faith dies because it's not there.

When one misses 2:26 and the analogy, one fails to properly understand 2:14.

You've neither refuted my explanation, or answered my question, which is legitimate, given 2:26. Nor have you provided a reasonable explanation of what a "dead faith" is. James wasn't comparing a saving faith with a dead faith just because we find "faith save" and dead faith in the same passage.

Just as a body in which the spirit is absent is called "dead", so also a faith in which deeds are absent is called dead.

But you must ignore the FACT that there is a beginning to the body, and its end, death, just as there is a beginning to faith, and its end, when there is no fruit.

A superficial reading of passages often to leads to misunderstanding the whole context, as you've demonstrated here.

 

[FreeGrace2]

And to continue the scripture reading...

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. - James 2:24

Yes, in the eyes of others, not God. For surely God does not need to see one's faith in action in order to know they have faith. Unless, I guess, one holds to open theism or something.

Here are list of passages that emphasize that the believer's conduct is seen before God and man.
2 Cor 5:12, 8:21, Rom 12:11, 1 Tim 3:7, 1 Thess 4:12, 1 Pet 2:12, and 1 Jn 3:18.

James is emphasizing the imporance of living out one's faith in front of others, as 2:15-18 clearly demonstrate.

 

[rockytopva]

Yes, in the eyes of others, not God. For surely God does not need to see one's faith in action in order to know they have faith. Unless, I guess, one holds to open theism or something.

Here are list of passages that emphasize that the believer's conduct is seen before God and man.
2 Cor 5:12, 8:21, Rom 12:11, 1 Tim 3:7, 1 Thess 4:12, 1 Pet 2:12, and 1 Jn 3:18.

James is emphasizing the imporance of living out one's faith in front of others, as 2:15-18 clearly demonstrate.

I know too many fellow Christians these days who feel no responsibility for working for Jesus Christ.

1. No conviction to give or participate in ministries
2. No conviction to live a holy life
3. 'Us four no more.' Comfort Zone tight around family, no one else allowed in.

And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. - Matthew 25:30

If you read the parable of the ten talents you will find that Christ held folks responsible for the abilities they were born with and acquired for in life...