False Conversions/ salvations

[James1979]

orthedoxy,

The verses that you mentioned in Romans 10:9, Acts 2:37 and so has been widely taught that we need to do something on our part to be saved. But the fact is, we in ourselves cannot repent nor believe or produce any good fruits until God The Holy Spirit intercedes for us, takes the first action.

Let's take a look at Romans 10:9

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Now let's take a look at 1Cor 12:3

1Corinthians 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Just looking at these two scriptures it says that if we confess that Jesus is Lord and believe in our heart that God raised up Jesus from the dead then we shall be saved. Looks like we have to do this in order to be save as many do this across world, this is called a do-it-yourself getting saved, grace plus works gospel. The next verse says that no man can confess that Jesus is Lord but by the Holy Ghost. Well in Corinthians, Paul inspired by the Holy Spirit, is saying that the Holy Ghost has to regenerate your heart first and give you your new spirit(new creation) in order for you or me or anyone else for that matter to be able to believe, repent and do other good works.

So now we have to ask ourselves, do we become saved by a few words that come out of our mouths and try to use our wicked heart by nature to believe on God or does God the Holy Spirit have to regenerate us through the gospel, God's word to save us. Plus, the Holy Spirit can only regenerate the elect because their sins have been paid for through the Lord Jesus Christ, anyone outside of the sheep cannot and will never be regenerated by God.

Here's another example, when God made Adam from the dust of the ground.

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Now before God had breath into Adam's nostrils, if God had commanded Adam to rise up from the ground, could Adam simply hear the voice of God and rise up as he was commanded? Of course not, this is only an example as this did not happen, but think about it, Adam would have not heard God if God had commanded him to rise up because God had not given Adam(a body without a spirit/soul) his breath. That's the same way anyone of us becomes saved, God has to breath into us, make us alive in order to respond to his calling through the gospel. But today's in man's rebellion against God, they think that they can simply come alive without God first breathing(God putting his spirit within us)on them to live.

Act 2:37 Now when they heard [this], they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men [and] brethren, what shall we do?

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Here is another example of how some people look at this and think hmm I have to repent and be baptized(most think this is water baptism, another thread is needed for this). But God has to grant us the gift of repentance in order to repent and also believe on Jesus as this is the work of God (John 6:28-29)

Acts 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

God does not require an unbeliever to have some knowledge of the bible to become saved, John the baptist was in his mother's womb when he became saved, John brain wasn't able to comprehend anything. What about the thief in the cross, most likely he didn't know too much about the gospel as well but God saved the thief. If God is going to save anyone one of us, his method to save us is getting us to hear his word the gospel and God will take it from their.

Romans 10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.


God Bless

 

[Reformationist]

I’m saying God initiates salvation and he is the one that saves.

Does He initiate it for all people?

He gets all the credit even though we need to respond to his calling.

Does everyone for whom He initiates salvation respond in faith?

The bible says if you believe and you confess with your mouth you will be saved, Act 2:37 What shall we do. Vs38 Peter replied repent and be baptized and you will receive the Holy Spirit.
Notice they were asking what do we need to do. Would you say they repented or God repented for them? When one confesses is it God confessing for that person or is it the person doing it? When one believes is it God believing for him or is it the person that is doing the believing?

Once again your man centered approach to Scripture has led you to ask nonsensical questions. I've never stated that God repents for man nor that man is not required to repent. I've never stated that man needn't obey God and confess his sins. I've never stated that faith in God is not a constituent element of salvation. What I've stated was that our repentance is not the basis for God saving us. What I've stated is that confession is the result of being made aware of our sinfulness. What I've stated is that believing in God is the product of God granting a person salvitic faith. Once again, your questions are immaterial. If that is not basic enough for you I will be happy to break it down further.

All these places it doesn’t say you will know you are one of the saved ones but you will be saved.

I have no clue what your point is here. Are you claiming that a person cannot know if they are a child of God? Can a Christian have no assurance of their salvation?

Even John 3:16 whoever believe shall not perish.

Again, I fail to see your point for I've not stated that anyone who truly believes shall perish. John 3:16 isn't speaking primarily to the extent of the atonement as much as it addresses the efficacy of the atonement.

Your reasons for having assurance for salvation many people in different faiths have the same things from Catholics to Eastern Orthodox to some arminians.

So? Have I stated that God only plans on saving people that believe as I do? I believe God enlightens us to varying degrees and, therefore, it is quite possible that many Christians will die believing wrong doctrine. It is not within my ability to tell you whom God will save though I will tell you that I believe He will save every single person He planned on saving. None will be lost, no matter how misguided their understanding of Scripture may be.

Everyone thinks the bible supports what he believes.

Just because I am part of "everyone" and think that I believe what is truly relayed in the Bible doesn't mean I'm wrong.

Would you say whoever feel the same way you do have assurance of salvation?

I am not equipped to know whether another person's faith is genuine. I've seen people who are extremely knowledgeable of the Gospel and pious to a fault leave the Church never to return. Do I believe they were saved? No. If I had to guess as to their salvitic disposition prior to their leaving I would have guessed yes. Either way, it is not I that will make a man stand or fall but, rather, it is his Master that will do so.

Let me ask you this question is it possible for you to become a Catholic?

I pray to God that He never lets me be that deceived.

Or is it if one have true faith will remain a Calvinist?

I believe that the reformed understanding of Scripture is as close to accurate as man currently has. The veracity of a person's faith isn't what keeps them from being deceived, for many people truly and faithfully believe something that is false. It is God that either protects someone from error or ordains that they fall prey to it for a time because it suits His purposes. It is not in my purview to question His methods.

What would you do with people that used to be Calvinist and now are Catholic? People like Scott Hahn who used to be a teacher at a Presbyterian university and now is a Catholic?

I would try to help them see the serious error in their views and, of course, pray that God opens their eyes that they may see that doctrine for what it is. What would you do with those that were former Catholics who have converted to reformed Christianity?

Would you say he never had true faith?

I don't doubt Scott Hahn's faith, just his wisdom.

Do you believe once a true Calvinist always a Calvinist?

I'm sure that there have been quite a few "true Calvinists" (whatever that is) that have been led astray and believe in the falsehoods that are propagated by denominations such as your own.

Have a good day.

Thank you. You too.

God bless

 

[orthedoxy]

James
Who is doing the confessing you or the Holy Spirit? Read Rom 10:9 to answer the question.
I would agree that without the H.S you can’t confess but that doesn’t mean you can’t resist the H.S and not confess.
I agree the H.S has to convict you before you can confess Jesus with your mouth but you are not saved prior to confessing according to Rom 10:9.
You don’t receive the H.S(Regenerated) not until you repent and are baptized according to act 2:38.
Would you say whoever confesses Jesus with their mouth is regenerated and is eternally secured?
About Adam I agree one he has to be called to respond. I disagree that he has to be regenerated to respond. If you say Adam was regenerated then how could he loose his salvation?
God breath the breath of life into every single person does that mean everyone is regenerated? Even though we don’t have control over life or death we do have control on what to eat and what to drink, we have control on who to serve.
God bless

 

[Reformationist]

Who is doing the confessing you or the Holy Spirit? Read Rom 10:9 to answer the question.

Why do you confess when others do not? Read Acts 13:48 and Philippians 2:13 to answer the question.

I would agree that without the H.S you can’t confess but that doesn’t mean you can’t resist the H.S and not confess.

So the Holy Spirit's influence is necessary for one to confess but not sufficient? Tell me, what is the definitive difference between those that confess and those that resist the Holy Spirit's influence? What is it that regulates whether the Holy Spirit, that would be God, is able to bring someone to repentence?

I agree the H.S has to convict you before you can confess Jesus with your mouth but you are not saved prior to confessing according to Rom 10:9.
You don’t receive the H.S(Regenerated) not until you repent and are baptized according to act 2:38.

For those of you who can't quite put your finger on it, read the above as "salvation by works."

Would you say whoever confesses Jesus with their mouth is regenerated and is eternally secured?

If their confession of Him is true, something only they and God truly know, then yes. But again, not because they confessed that Jesus is Lord. The ability to do so, at least in a supplicative way, is the result of God's gracious work of regeneration, not the basis for it.

About Adam I agree one he has to be called to respond. I disagree that he has to be regenerated to respond. If you say Adam was regenerated then how could he loose his salvation?

Two things. First, "regenerate" means to have gone from a state of depravity and inability, lawlessness and rebellion to that of a child of God who desires to serve and obey and love their Lord. Prior to the Fall Adam was not in a state of sin and depravity, so he wasn't "regenerate." He was created as a child of God. He was created as a believer. Second, who said Adam lost his salvation?

God breath the breath of life into every single person does that mean everyone is regenerated?

You refer to physical life, not spiritual life. This is a gift God only gives to those He redeems. In fact, it is how He redeems them.

Even though we don’t have control over life or death we do have control on what to eat and what to drink, we have control on who to serve.

The unregenerate serve their master, the devil, for they are his children. When God gives us life He changes our spiritual polarity. Where we once freely and willfully served our own lusts, and thus, the devil, now we are children of God's light and freely and willfully serve Him.

God bless

 

[orthedoxy]

God initiates salvation to those we reach out to.
Not everyone that he initiates salvation respond look at act 7:51.
How is my view man-centered? I’m saying you can’t come on your own; also he is doing the salvation.
Romans says you have to confess before you are saved, many places it says believe and you will be saved why don’t you see that as man centered?
You say God grant faith and man need to believe to be saved, you say God grant repentance and man need to repent to be saved. If you say God is not the one believing why don’t you call that man based salvation? Or if God is not the one doing the repentance how is that not man centered salvation?
I’m not saying salvation is based on our believe just God promised to save those who believe and not to do so he would be lying.

In regard of assurance of salvation, if a person believes just like you and has assurance of salvation and now is a Catholic. How can you say he was never saved? If that is the case then you can’t be assured you are saved (chosen one).
I have the same assurance that you have in regard of my salvation. I believe the bible backs me up.
I have a question if one need to be regenerated to say Jesus is Lord why is there so many people that have confessed Jesus as Lord and now they deny him? Would you say whoever confesses Jesus as Lord is regenerated and eternally secured? Or could one be regenerated but not eternally secured?
The bible doesn't say truely confess but it says no one can say Jesus is Lord without the Holy Spirit.
I believe those who are true Christian and leave their faith for a cult lose their salvation.
I don’t see how you can say one who believes just like you, feel the same way about God as you, have the same assurance as you do, when they leave what you think is the true teaching, you would say you don’t think they were ever regenerated. That would only mean you don't have assurance.
I would say I have assurance now but I can loose that assurance if I walk away.
God bless
P.S What are you reformed from?

 

[orthedoxy]

Why do you confess when others do not? Read Acts 13:48 and Philippians 2:13 to answer the question.

Because if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. That is a promise. do you think God breaks his promise?

So the Holy Spirit's influence is necessary for one to confess but not sufficient? Tell me, what is the definitive difference between those that confess and those that resist the Holy Spirit's influence? What is it that regulates whether the Holy Spirit, that would be God, is able to bring someone to repentence?

God can't sin and he can't force someone to love him.
Matt 23:37 Jesus(God) wanted to do something but couldn't force his will.

For those of you who can't quite put your finger on it, read the above as "salvation by works."

Salvation by work is when you say anyone that is good is saved. I have said no such thing.
Act 2:38 says repent and be baptized then you will recieve the Holy Spirit.
This verse is saying regeneration(recieving the H.S) is hapening after repentance and baptizm.

If their confession of Him is true, something only they and God truly know, then yes. But again, not because they confessed that Jesus is Lord. The ability to do so, at least in a supplicative way, is the result of God's gracious work of regeneration, not the basis for it.

There is no mention of true confession and you would change the whole meaning of the verse to insert that in there.
this is what it says "no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost."

Two things. First, "regenerate" means to have gone from a state of depravity and inability, lawlessness and rebellion to that of a child of God who desires to serve and obey and love their Lord. Prior to the Fall Adam was not in a state of sin and depravity, so he wasn't "regenerate." He was created as a child of God. He was created as a believer. Second, who said Adam lost his salvation?

Ok Adam was a child of God and he fell spiritually and he passed his spiritual death unto us.
Was Adam not chosen before the creation of the world unto eternal life?

You refer to physical life, not spiritual life. This is a gift God only gives to those He redeems. In fact, it is how He redeems them.



The unregenerate serve their master, the devil, for they are his children. When God gives us life He changes our spiritual polarity. Where we once freely and willfully served our own lusts, and thus, the devil, now we are children of God's light and freely and willfully serve Him.

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

God initiates salvation to those we reach out to.
Not everyone that he initiates salvation respond look at act 7:51.

So why do some respond in faith and others continue in rebellion? What is the definitive difference between the two groups of people?

How is my view man-centered?

Because your entire view makes a person's salvation contingent upon what that person chooses to embrace rather than acknowledging that the person desires, and thus embraces, the Gospel because God's grace is efficacious in bringing them to faith according to His sovereign will. You make salvation about the choice of man rather than the choice of God. That makes it man centered.

I’m saying you can’t come on your own; also he is doing the salvation.

And WHY does God save a person? Unless you are willing to acknowledge that there are some that God does not love as He loves His elect then you cannot say He saves them because He loves them. Therefore, you must acknowledge that God saves a person because they make the right decision, i.e., a works based salvation.

Romans says you have to confess before you are saved

Why does one confess when so many others do not? Is that one smarter, more gullible, holier?

many places it says believe and you will be saved why don’t you see that as man centered?

Does it say, anywhere, that one is saved because they confess or because they believe?

You say God grant faith and man need to believe to be saved, you say God grant repentance and man need to repent to be saved.

Yes. As Augustine recognized, God commands of us certain things and is also the source for the dispensation of the things He demands.

If you say God is not the one believing why don’t you call that man based salvation? Or if God is not the one doing the repentance how is that not man centered salvation?

It is man centered salvation because it subordinates the ability of God to accomplish a person's salvation to whether the creation makes the right choice. In your view, man is the master of his own destiny, so it is man who is glorified when he makes the right choice.

I’m not saying salvation is based on our believe just God promised to save those who believe and not to do so he would be lying.

Is English not your primary language? I'm having a hard time understanding you. If salvation is not based on our choice to believe then on what does God base whether or not to save someone?

In regard of assurance of salvation, if a person believes just like you and has assurance of salvation and now is a Catholic. How can you say he was never saved? If that is the case then you can’t be assured you are saved (chosen one).
I have the same assurance that you have in regard of my salvation. I believe the bible backs me up.

I never made the claim that if someone was a reformed Christian and then converted to Catholicism that they were never saved so your point is moot.

I have a question if one need to be regenerated to say Jesus is Lord why is there so many people that have confessed Jesus as Lord and now they deny him?

If one simply pays lip service to the idea of Jesus' lordship then their confession is disingenuous. One must be regenerate in order that they may truly believe and confess that Jesus is Lord.

Would you say whoever confesses Jesus as Lord is regenerated and eternally secured?

Asked and answered.

Or could one be regenerated but not eternally secured?

No. If God deigns to regenerate someone from death in their sins to life in the Lord Jesus, He has promised to finish the work He begins.

The bible doesn't say truely confess but it says no one can say Jesus is Lord without the Holy Spirit.

Don't be ridiculous. Jesus Himself says there will be many who call Him Lord to whom He will say, "Depart from Me, I never knew you."

I believe those who are true Christian and leave their faith for a cult lose their salvation.

Of course you do. It's the natural result of believing you do something to cause your salvation. If you did something to cause your salvation then, obviously, you could do something to lose it. So much for every passage which states explicitly that the Lord shall lose none that the Father has given Him. So much for any passage that intimates that we are held in Christ by the power of God. So much for any passage which states that God will glorify those He forknew. In fact, to hold that anthropocentric view we must dispense with half of Scripture. Good plan.

I don’t see how you can say one who believes just like you, feel the same way about God as you, have the same assurance as you do, when they leave what you think is the true teaching, you would say you don’t think they were ever regenerated. That would only mean you don't have assurance.
I would say I have assurance now but I can loose that assurance if I walk away.

My assurance is in the power of God to keep what He has set apart. Your faith, and thus the assurance of salvation, is in your ability to choose to remain steadfast, i.e., works based, man centered salvation. I want no part of such a view and view it as blasphemy.

P.S What are you reformed from?

"Reformed Christian" is a label given to those who have cast off the erroneous teachings of Catholicism and embraced the God centered doctrines of grace.

 

[Reformationist]

Because if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. That is a promise. do you think God breaks his promise?

That is the same promise God has made to all, correct? The promise God has made is not the cause of you choosing Him. Why do you choose God when so many others to whom God has also made that promise choose to rebel?

God can't sin and he can't force someone to love him.
Matt 23:37 Jesus(God) wanted to do something but couldn't force his will.

I've never stated that God forces anyone to love Him so stop making this discussion so tedious. Also, please answer my questions. I answer yours. I asked you whether the Holy Spirit's influence was sufficient to cause someone to confess. I also asked what the difference was between those that confess and those that don't. I also asked what regulates whether the Holy Spirit is able to bring someone to repentence.

As to whether God cna "force His will," you make one of the most inane comments I've ever read on this board, from believer or non-believer. To claim that a sovereign God cannot force His will implies that God would need to force His will. Were that ever the case (as silly as it sounds), God's will would surely come to pass. To claim otherwise is to subordinate the will of God to something you see as more powerful.

Salvation by work is when you say anyone that is good is saved. I have said no such thing.

Orthodoxy, this conversation is becoming rather tedious. I don't think you have the necessary knowledge of Scripture to debate these issues. Are you a new Christian?

Act 2:38 says repent and be baptized then you will recieve the Holy Spirit.
This verse is saying regeneration(recieving the H.S) is hapening after repentance and baptizm.

You should come outside of the indoctrination that you have suffered in your denomination. Not everyone defines regeneration in the inaccurate manner that you denomination does.

Ok Adam was a child of God and he fell spiritually and he passed his spiritual death unto us. Was Adam not chosen before the creation of the world unto eternal life?

I don't know. The Bible does not say, however, if I had to venture an educated guess, I would say that He is one of God's children and, thus, redeemed by the vicarious atonement of Christ, just as we are.

God bless

 

[Jon_]

Orthodoxy, this conversation is becoming rather tedious. I don't think you have the necessary knowledge of Scripture to debate these issues. Are you a new Christian?

I wonder which of these verses would be more applicable:

(1 Co. 2:14 AV) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

(1 Co. 3:2 AV) I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
​

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[orthedoxy]

Reform
You believe one needs to truly believe and truly confess to be saved. How is that not work?
You are the one doing the believing, you are the one that is doing the confessing not God.
God would need to make you believe before he could save you. That is the same as you have to do work.
My church doesn’t baptize a good Muslim or a good Jew because we don’t believe in salvation by works. So stop misunderstanding what I believe. I do believe it’s by faith and works not by works alone. I do believe one need faith and works in order for God to save him.
God saves according to his foreknowledge and not without.
When we read matt 25:31-46 we see at that time Jesus is separating the sheep from the goats and he is putting those who did good works in his name on the right and those who did bad on the left. Jesus is making his judgment with knowledge of what you have done not before.
According to matt 25 and many other places the judgment is happening after faith.
That’s an interesting question for you. Is one saved before they believe?

As to your question:

I've never stated that God forces anyone to love Him so stop making this discussion so tedious. Also, please answer my questions. I answer yours. I asked you whether the Holy Spirit's influence was sufficient to cause someone to confess. I also asked what the difference was between those that confess and those that don't. I also asked what regulates whether the Holy Spirit is able to bring someone to repentence.

As to whether God cna "force His will," you make one of the most inane comments I've ever read on this board, from believer or non-believer. To claim that a sovereign God cannot force His will implies that God would need to force His will. Were that ever the case (as silly as it sounds), God's will would surely come to pass. To claim otherwise is to subordinate the will of God to something you see as more powerful.

If you believe God makes one who hates him to love him without his consent isn’t that forcing one to love him?
The Holy Spirit influence is sufficient to cause someone to come to God. The difference between those who confess and those that don’t is whether they accept or reject the H.S.
I believe salvation is a gift and when you unwrap the gift God saves you. God gets the credit for the salvation.
Now can you please answer the question I asked you? Here it is: in Matt 23:37 If Jesus wanted to do something why couldn’t he do it?
Here is another question why did God cause a flood to kill the wicked people and he was sorry or grieved to do so when he could have just changed every ones will so they wouldn't be evil?
Dear Reformationist
You can call your self reformed Roman Catholic but please don’t call yourself reformed Christian. Oriental Orthodox Churches and Eastern Orthodox Churches were not under the Pope of Rome nor were we selling Indulgences so we weren't in need of change. Actually it’s not even accurate to call yourself Reformed R.C because you weren’t trying to reform the R.C Church but change their teachings. The teachings of faith alone, symbolic Body and Blood, Sola Scriptura, limited atonement and the perseverance of the saints were never taught by the R.C and for that neither by any church prior to the protest. You might find some fathers that seem to be teaching one of these things but I dare you to post something on OBOB or TAW or TVITD claiming their Church taught such teachings.
I’m not trying to offend anyone here I’m just Expressing what I believe if in any way you don’t want me to post on this topic just tell me and I will stop. Don’t try to make fun of people the way Jon is trying to.
God bless
P.S
I’m Armenian and English is my third language, if you don’t understand something let me know. I realize you are gifted in the English writing.

 

[Reformationist]

You believe one needs to truly believe and truly confess to be saved. How is that not work?

I believe that all who truly believe and truly confess will be eternally saved, though I do not believe their acts of doing either are the basis for that salvation.

You are the one doing the believing, you are the one that is doing the confessing not God.

I am well aware of that.

God would need to make you believe before he could save you. That is the same as you have to do work.

I have no idea why you equate God creating faith in someone to man being saved because of his works so I don't know how to address this.

My church doesn’t baptize a good Muslim or a good Jew because we don’t believe in salvation by works.

You may not espouse salvation exclusively by works but you do claim that a person's works play just as pivitol role in their salvation as does the work of Christ.

So stop misunderstanding what I believe.

I don't misunderstand it. I understand what you believe.

I do believe it’s by faith and works not by works alone.

Salvation by faith and works is just as heretical as salvation by works so I don't know why you feel that this vindicates you.

I do believe one need faith and works in order for God to save him.

I know. That is heresy.

God saves according to his foreknowledge and not without.

His "foreknowledge" is based on what He purposes so, yes, His plan of salvation is based on what He purposes. It is not, however, based on any merit man generates by his obedience.

When we read matt 25:31-46 we see at that time Jesus is separating the sheep from the goats and he is putting those who did good works in his name on the right and those who did bad on the left. Jesus is making his judgment with knowledge of what you have done not before.

As much weight as I'm sure you put in your erroneous understanding of that passage, the point is that the sheep are not the sheep because they did good works. They are the sheep because God has set them aside according to His own purpose in election. As I previously stated, our obedience is the result of His work in us, not the cause of it.

According to matt 25 and many other places the judgment is happening after faith.

It is fine to distinguish between God eternally judging someone and His gracious gift of faith but separating them, as if one could ever occur without the other is utter blasphemy. God demands of fallen man faith and then graciously supplies it according to His own eternal plan of redemption. Faith is a constituent element of eternal salvation but it is not something we provide. Our faith in God is the natural, and invariable, result of His work of regeneration.

That’s an interesting question for you. Is one saved before they believe?

One is eternally saved based on the work of Christ on the Cross. That happened long before many believers were even born. In that regard, yes, man is eternally saved before he believes. However, there are two other ways in which salvation is spoken of in the Gospel. Man is eternally saved when God imputes unto Him the merit of Christ's vicarious atonement. He is progressively saved as God sanctifies him from his sinful flesh. And, he is finally saved when all vestiges of sin are removed from his being and he is glorified in Heaven.

If you believe God makes one who hates him to love him without his consent isn’t that forcing one to love him?

No, because God changes the heart of fallen man through His loving work of regeneration, not by His omnipotence.

The Holy Spirit influence is sufficient to cause someone to come to God. The difference between those who confess and those that don’t is whether they accept or reject the H.S.

It may be the limitations of your knowledge of the language but, these are contradictory statements. If the Holy Spirit's influence is sufficient to cause someone to come to God in faith then nothing else is necessary to bring it to pass. You follow up saying that it is sufficient by claiming that man must also accept it for it to come to pass. So, which is it? Is the influence of the Holy Spirit sufficient or is the Holy Spirit impotent in the face of man's will to choose either for or against God?

I believe salvation is a gift and when you unwrap the gift God saves you. God gets the credit for the salvation.

You and God get the credit for without both of your works, God cannot save you. As I said, you believe in a salvation by works.

Now can you please answer the question I asked you? Here it is: in Matt 23:37 If Jesus wanted to do something why couldn’t he do it?

This is an anthropomorphism about the wickedness of man, not a statement about the inability of Christ to bring His will to pass. All that God purposes shall come to pass and none can stay His hand. It's called sovereignty. Look it up.

Here is another question why did God cause a flood to kill the wicked people and he was sorry or grieved to do so when he could have just changed every ones will so they wouldn't be evil?

It was not His plan to do so. I agree that He could have regenerated everyone. He just chose to manifest the dispensation of His grace and carry on the line of His elect in the manner He chose to do so.

You can call your self reformed Roman Catholic but please don’t call yourself reformed Christian.

orthedoxy, I am a reformed Christian. Please don't presume to tell me what I should call myself. You just worry about reconciling the abundant inconsistancies and biblical errors in your view. I'll worry about the title I bear. If it makes you more comfortable, I am simply a Christian.

Oriental Orthodox Churches and Eastern Orthodox Churches were not under the Pope of Rome nor were we selling Indulgences so we weren't in need of change.

If your doctrines were as they are now your denomination is in desparate need of reform so your point is moot.

Actually it’s not even accurate to call yourself Reformed R.C because you weren’t trying to reform the R.C Church but change their teachings.

I don't call myself a reformed Roman Catholic.

The teachings of faith alone, symbolic Body and Blood, Sola Scriptura, limited atonement and the perseverance of the saints were never taught by the R.C and for that neither by any church prior to the protest. You might find some fathers that seem to be teaching one of these things but I dare you to post something on OBOB or TAW or TVITD claiming their Church taught such teachings.

I have no clue why you'd dare me as I've debated those very topics with all of those heretical denominations since I came to this MB, more than 10,000 posts ago.

I’m not trying to offend anyone here I’m just Expressing what I believe if in any way you don’t want me to post on this topic just tell me and I will stop. Don’t try to make fun of people the way Jon is trying to.

No one is making fun of you. Your denomination, and thus you, espouse heresy. That is a serious charge. We don't take such things lightly in this forum.

I’m Armenian and English is my third language, if you don’t understand something let me know. I realize you are gifted in the English writing.

I am not gifted and your English is much better than my Armenian. I'll ask if I have questions.

God bless

 

[Erinwilcox]

I hate to break up the theological talk, but that last post was awesome! To God be the glory! Amen!

 

[Jon_]

I hate to break up the theological talk, but that last post was awesome! To God be the glory! Amen!

You got that right, Erin. Don is an awesome servant of Christ. I praise God for his faithful testimony of the Scriptures. We are blessed to call him "brother."

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[Reformationist]

I'm trying very hard to stay humble but when two people as knowledgeable and well spoken as the two of you compliment me like that, well, let's just say humility isn't my strongest virtue.

Thank you both for the kindness and encouragement. Truth is, I often think the things I say are so remedial that I wonder why so many people act as if it's a jagged pill they have trouble swallowing. Then, of course, I remember that fallen man loves to have his ears tickled with self-glorifying doctrine so the doctrines of grace, which paint him in a much less grandiose light, are not going to be very popular.

It makes me all that much more thankful that the Lord has condescended to let me see the depths of my wickedness, or at least as much as He knows I can handle seeing. The knowledge that every aspect of our salvation depends upon God's graciousness makes it so much easier to see the extent of His intercession and the strength of His love. I often wonder what it is that many "believers" thank God for, as their views about salvation revolve around their own greatness and wisdom.

Anyway, thank you both for the kind words. Please pray that the Lord would give me patience when dealing with others. I understand that it is a virtue but it seems that the Lord uses me to develop the patience of others more often than he develops my patience.

May God bless you and keep you my brothers and sisters,
Don

 

[edie19]

I believe that all who truly believe and truly confess will be eternally saved, though I do not believe their acts of doing either are the basis for that salvation. . . . You may not espouse salvation exclusively by works but you do claim that a person's works play just as pivitol role in their salvation as does the work of Christ. . . . Salvation by faith and works is just as heretical as salvation by works so I don't know why you feel that this vindicates you.
. . . I am a reformed Christian. Please don't presume to tell me what I should call myself. You just worry about reconciling the abundant inconsistancies and biblical errors in your view. I'll worry about the title I bear. If it makes you more comfortable, I am simply a Christian. . . . I don't call myself a reformed Roman Catholic.

Our church webmaster regulary posts qoutes by various Reformed theologians. The quote currently on the site to fit in here a little bit. . .

"Are You a Calvinist? If you mean by a rigid Calvinist, one who is fierce, dogmatical, and censorious, and ready to deal out anathemas against all who differ from him, I hope I am no more such a one than I am a rigid Papist. But, as to the doctrines which are now stigmatized by the name of Calvinism, I cannot well avoid the epithet rigid, while I believe them: for there seems to be no medium between holding them and not holding them; between ascribing salvation to the will of man, or the power of God; between grace and works, Romans, 11:6.; between being found in the righteousness of Christ, or in my own, Philippians, 3:9. Did the harsh consequences often charged upon the doctrine called Calvinistic really belong to it, I should have much to answer for if I had invented it myself, or taken it upon trust from Calvin; but, as I find it in the Scriptures, I cheerfully embrace it, and leave it to the Lord to vindicate his own truths and his own ways, from all the imputations which have been cast upon them."

John Newton, author of the hymn, Amazing Grace

 

[BBAS 64]

You got that right, Erin. Don is an awesome servant of Christ. I praise God for his faithful testimony of the Scriptures. We are blessed to call him "brother."

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

Good Day, Jon_

I will second that with a LOUD

Bill

 

[Imblessed]

Our church webmaster regulary posts qoutes by various Reformed theologians. The quote currently on the site to fit in here a little bit. . .

"Are You a Calvinist? If you mean by a rigid Calvinist, one who is fierce, dogmatical, and censorious, and ready to deal out anathemas against all who differ from him, I hope I am no more such a one than I am a rigid Papist. But, as to the doctrines which are now stigmatized by the name of Calvinism, I cannot well avoid the epithet rigid, while I believe them: for there seems to be no medium between holding them and not holding them; between ascribing salvation to the will of man, or the power of God; between grace and works, Romans, 11:6.; between being found in the righteousness of Christ, or in my own, Philippians, 3:9. Did the harsh consequences often charged upon the doctrine called Calvinistic really belong to it, I should have much to answer for if I had invented it myself, or taken it upon trust from Calvin; but, as I find it in the Scriptures, I cheerfully embrace it, and leave it to the Lord to vindicate his own truths and his own ways, from all the imputations which have been cast upon them."

John Newton, author of the hymn, Amazing Grace

That's awesome! I've often said that until I embraced the doctrines of grace, I could never understand the hymn Amazing Grace, and when I did, finally, by the Grace of God, understand His Soveriegnity in ALL things, that song came alive to me as it never had before---I sing that song with sooo much more passion now that I understand what it means........"twas grace that caused my heart to fear, twas grace my fears relieved....."



and now I know why!!!

 

[Imblessed]

Good Day, Jon_

I will second that with a LOUD

Bill

I'll third that !

(but if we are not careful, we're gonna be confused with the charismatics--with all this "amening" going on........!)

 

[Jon_]

I'll third that !

(but if we are not careful, we're gonna be confused with the charismatics--with all this "amening" going on........!)

Amen! Amen!

SJDjio2349R(Q((#j3oi4p;qa28@I#Joi;a;NOAEi8920#$)H8+)#h8!*@!joI@N#(*FNOEUIPHND(*RFHN(#*HFubN#UI84#*()@Q$JH()@n3iopj2893p#R*(Pj29prn9*DP#*PHNf9-2u928#R(P84h3ojnr9q3p (tongues speaking )

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[Reformationist]

edb19, great post. I have often wondered what those who hold to man centered views feel when they sing the words, "Twas grace that saved a wretch like me..." or "I once was blind but now I see..." They must be confused because they don't think they are either wretches or that they're blind.

I'm with Imblessed on this one. That song has meaning only when we see the greatness of God's invincible grace.

Also, thank you all for the wonderful encouragement. You are all like a second family to me and, considering some of the things that are going on in my life, a second family is truly what I need.

May God bless you all with the knowledge of both His love and my own,
Don