Falling away

[Douggg]

I personally believe that the rapture can happen at any time but during the age of the church, not the tribulation. I believe that the rapture is number sensitive and not necessarily date sensitive. Once the fulness of the Gentiles come in ( the full number of Gentiles to saved) the rapture will happen and God the father will send Jesus to get his bride and bring them all home. It is very exciting to think about!

What was in the last minute of the clip? I didn't get that.

In the last 30 seconds, he was saying that although he believes the rapture to take place before the man of sin is revealed - does that (the revealing of the man of sin) mean before the day he goes into the temple and claims to be God?

Pre-trib rapture is actually somewhat misleading because what it assumes is that everyone considers the entire 7 years as being the tribulation with the second half (nominally speaking) the great tribulation.

What the Pre-trib rapture view should be called is the Pre-70th week view.

The Antichrist though reveals himself as the man of sin sometime near the middle of the 70th week. So that would mean that the rapture if before the man of sin goes into the temple and claims to be God, as the revealing of him, then window for the rapture is between now and the middle of the 70th week, when the revealing takes place.

So, therefore, it is possible Christians could be here, not raptured, when the Antichrist first comes on the scene as the little horn of leader of the EU, and after Gog/Magog, and after the Antichrist initiates the 7 years.

 

[Douggg]

How are you getting this from scripture ?

Islam itself is not in the bible anywhere. But what is in the bible is the alliance of nations in Ezekiel 38/39, which are muslim. The seven years follow the defeat of Gog's army.

In addition, with 5/6th of the Russian army and northern allies destroyed, which together with destruction on the muslim nations and their allies, is significant to the global power of nations. The Europeans are going to backfill the vacancies in the middle east oil producing nations, in a post Gog, occupancy role.

It is like the destruction of the axis powers after WWII, but on a greater scale.

Islam will no longer be a religion, much like what happen to communism, because the nations holding to it will be significantly depopulated and their armies - and the religion itself completely discredited because God shows that He is not Allah, but the Holy One of Israel.

Also, for the Antichrist-beast to be worshiped by them of the world who do not have their names in the book of life, that means everyone except them embracing Jesus as the messiah - which because Islam currently makes up over a billion people that would be too large of segment, who are not Christians, but would never worship a man claiming to be God, to be a going concern in the 7 years. Islam simply will not be around at that time.

 

[bibletruth469]

In the last 30 seconds, he was saying that although he believes the rapture to take place before the man of sin is revealed - does that (the revealing of the man of sin) mean before the day he goes into the temple and claims to be God? Pre-trib rapture is actually somewhat misleading because what it assumes is that everyone considers the entire 7 years as being the tribulation with the second half (nominally speaking) the great tribulation. What the Pre-trib rapture view should be called is the Pre-70th week view. The Antichrist though reveals himself as the man of sin sometime near the middle of the 70th week. So that would mean that the rapture if before the man of sin goes into the temple and claims to be God, as the revealing of him, then window for the rapture is between now and the middle of the 70th week, when the revealing takes place. So, therefore, it is possible Christians could be here, not raptured, when the Antichrist first comes on the scene as the little horn of leader of the EU, and after Gog/Magog, and after the Antichrist initiates the 7 years.

Most people who are pre tribulation believe that the entire 7 years are considered the tribulation . The last 3 1\2 are the great tribulation . The rapture would happen before this time period. It would be called mid trib for a belief that the rapture will happen at the mid point when the antichrist proclaims himself to be god.

I believe that the rapture can happen at any time, but it would occur before the 70th week. The rapture will end the church age and God will turn His focus back on Israel at that time .

 

[bibletruth469]

Islam itself is not in the bible anywhere. But what is in the bible is the alliance of nations in Ezekiel 38/39, which are muslim. The seven years follow the defeat of Gog's army. In addition, with 5/6th of the Russian army and northern allies destroyed, which together with destruction on the muslim nations and their allies, is significant to the global power of nations. The Europeans are going to backfill the vacancies in the middle east oil producing nations, in a post Gog, occupancy role. It is like the destruction of the axis powers after WWII, but on a greater scale. Islam will no longer be a religion, much like what happen to communism, because the nations holding to it will be significantly depopulated and their armies - and the religion itself completely discredited because God shows that He is not Allah, but the Holy One of Israel. Also, for the Antichrist-beast to be worshiped by them of the world who do not have their names in the book of life, that means everyone except them embracing Jesus as the messiah - which because Islam currently makes up over a billion people that would be too large of segment, who are not Christians, but would never worship a man claiming to be God, to be a going concern in the 7 years. Islam simply will not be around at that time.

This is a very interesting perspective .

 

[parousia70]

I believe that the rapture is number sensitive and not necessarily date sensitive. Once the fulness of the Gentiles come in ( the full number of Gentiles to saved) the rapture will happen and God the father will send Jesus to get his bride and bring them all home.

Where does the Bible teach that "fulness of the gentiles" = full number of gentiles to be saved?

 

[bibletruth469]

Where does the Bible teach that "fulness of the gentiles" = full number of gentiles to be saved?

In the book of Romans chapter 11, there is a big distinction between Israel and the church. Look at Romans 11:25," For I would not brethren that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits ; that blindness in part is happened to Israel until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."

God has opened up salvation to the Gentiles because of Israel's unbelief . The verse' fulness of the Gentiles come in', I believe it means a time period when the last gentile will be saved and the church will be removed by the rapture. We are living in this time frame now. Once the very last person who will be part of the church and becomes a believer , God will call his people home.

The church is a different group than the tribulation saints mentioned in revelation 7, as many will be saved during the tribulation after the rapture of the church.

 

[TPeterY]

Islam itself is not in the bible anywhere. But what is in the bible is the alliance of nations in Ezekiel 38/39, which are muslim. The seven years follow the defeat of Gog's army.

In addition, with 5/6th of the Russian army and northern allies destroyed, which together with destruction on the muslim nations and their allies, is significant to the global power of nations. The Europeans are going to backfill the vacancies in the middle east oil producing nations, in a post Gog, occupancy role.

It is like the destruction of the axis powers after WWII, but on a greater scale.

Islam will no longer be a religion, much like what happen to communism, because the nations holding to it will be significantly depopulated and their armies - and the religion itself completely discredited because God shows that He is not Allah, but the Holy One of Israel.

Also, for the Antichrist-beast to be worshiped by them of the world who do not have their names in the book of life, that means everyone except them embracing Jesus as the messiah - which because Islam currently makes up over a billion people that would be too large of segment, who are not Christians, but would never worship a man claiming to be God, to be a going concern in the 7 years. Islam simply will not be around at that time.

Hey Dougg, do you mind if I ask you what bible translation you're using and if you're using other sources of information? I'm just curious to see how you came to this conclusion.

By the way, I do agree and already see the fall of Islam once Christ returns. The enormous rise of Islam, particularly the past 50 years is in preparation for Christ's return to save Israel and the world from a nuclear annihilation.

Father God has everything's all figured out and the stage all set for the end. We're just waiting for the clock to hit midnight before He pulls the plug. But I think you know all this already.

 

[parousia70]

The verse' fulness of the Gentiles come in', I believe it means a time period when the last gentile will be saved and the church will be removed by the rapture.

I understand you believe that, but I'm asking you to show us where the Bible teaches you to believe that?

Your interpretation of the usage of Fulness is entirely inconsistent with the scriptural usage of the term Fulness.

By comparing scripture with scripture we clearly see that "fullness" does not equate with "full number", but rather the fulness of Gods grace:

John 1:16
And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

Romans 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

(This is especially instructive for us in that "fulness" is considered here to the the opposite of "fall", and in no way can be construed as a numeric value.)

Romans 15:29 And I am sure that, when I come unto you, I shall come in the fulness of the blessing of the gospel of Christ.

Ephesians 1:23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

The list goes on........

The notion of fulness in the NT carries the idea of totality of Gods blessings and grace, and not a certain number of people.

The Gentiles are already FULL PARTAKERS of the grace of God.
The "Fulness of the gentiles" came in 2000 years ago.

 

[parousia70]

Once the very last person who will be part of the church and becomes a believer , God will call his people home.

And what if that "very last person" is a Jew?

The fact is that Jewish believers also make up that very same body of Christ which is the Church. This fully destroys the notion that the "last gentile" entering the body = the last human entering the body.

 

[Douggg]

Hey Dougg, do you mind if I ask you what bible translation you're using and if you're using other sources of information? I'm just curious to see how you came to this conclusion.

By the way, I do agree and already see the fall of Islam once Christ returns. The enormous rise of Islam, particularly the past 50 years is in preparation for Christ's return to save Israel and the world from a nuclear annihilation.

Father God has everything's all figured out and the stage all set for the end. We're just waiting for the clock to hit midnight before He pulls the plug. But I think you know all this already.

Hi TPY, I use the KJV at Biblegateway.com.

King James Version (KJV Bible) - Version Information - BibleGateway.com

Other sources? I am assuming you mean bible commentaries. No, I don't use any of those.

How I came to the conclusion that Islam would end before the time of the 7 years begin? It is a combination of factors. One is that the Antichrist must appear to the Jews as being the promised great King of Israel to lead them and the world into the messianic age. And that one of the criteria in Judaism is that the messiah fights the battles of God in defending Israel.

So the known enemies of Israel will have to be eliminated before entering the messianic era. Many of the Jews themselves believe the messiah will arrive following Gog/Magog.

Secondly, the Antichrist will for that last 42 months (having passed through the King of Israel messiah phase, no longer considered as) be worshiped by the world, according to Revelation 13, by everyone other than the elect. Muslims are not considered the elect.

Which if Islam were a going concern at that time, there would be a huge segment of the world's population that would not worship the Antichrist beast, because of the fundamentals of their religion - which would be out of step with what the bible says, So Islam won't be around then.

Thirdly, we have to consider the underlying motivation of the ten kings - to be in the middle east. And that is to control all of the middle east oil - which those muslims countries will no longer be going concerns at that time.

In Revelation 13, the beast is presented as a dual representation, the only place in Revelation, as both kingdom and king. The composite makeup of the body of the beast - represents the territories of the former historic empires of Babylon, Medes-Persians, Greece - that the beast will control. Basically, the EU wiil control the middle east oil is what that composite body make-up is factoring in.

Later, toward the end of the 7 years, when the judgments of God have crippled the world's energy resources - the ten kings will be controlling that supply, mostly for themselves.

The rest of the world, the south, the north, and the east are going to be forced to attack the Antichrist beast and the ten kings in order to get at the oil to survive. That's what will be the driver for the battles in Daniel 11:40-45.

 

[KrAZeD]

How I came to the conclusion that Islam would end before the time of the 7 years begin? It is a combination of factors. One is that the Antichrist must appear to the Jews as being the promised great King of Israel to lead them and the world into the messianic age. And that one of the criteria in Judaism is that the messiah fights the battles of God in defending Israel.

You make a good argument, I am curious though if your aware of any Islamic beliefs though. Not that their doctrine is right(I agree it isn't) just their many beliefs they have that can persuade one to see them being highly involved during the 7 year reign of the ac.


In Shi’a Islamic tradition, Jesus will return again, but not alone. Rather, He will return with Muhammad al-Mahdi: the prophesied redeemer of Islam who, it is believed, will bring peace and justice to an utterly chaotic world by establishing Islam everywhere. And, according to Islam, Jesus not only will be subservient to al-Mahdi, but Jesus will kill all, including Christians and Jews, who do not convert to Islam and pledge allegiance to Allah.

Leaves a plausible scenario where the beast and false prophet are Muslim and uniting Islam countries to wage war with Jerusalem. So to dismiss them prior to the 7 year reign isn't entirely sound, since this Islamic belief would align up with Daniels peace treaty and rev13. killing all who don't worship the beast.

 

[bibletruth469]

I understand you believe that, but I'm asking you to show us where the Bible teaches you to believe that? Your interpretation of the usage of Fulness is entirely inconsistent with the scriptural usage of the term Fulness. By comparing scripture with scripture we clearly see that "fullness" does not equate with "full number", but rather the fulness of Gods grace: John 1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. Romans 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? (This is especially instructive for us in that "fulness" is considered here to the the opposite of "fall", and in no way can be construed as a numeric value.) Romans 15:29 And I am sure that, when I come unto you, I shall come in the fulness of the blessing of the gospel of Christ. Ephesians 1:23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all. The list goes on........ The notion of fulness in the NT carries the idea of totality of Gods blessings and grace, and not a certain number of people. The Gentiles are already FULL PARTAKERS of the grace of God. The "Fulness of the gentiles" came in 2000 years ago.

A study of the Greek word , pleroma , ' fulness ' in Romans 11:25 means' a filling up' . It also means complete. I always understood this passage to mean that once the fulness ( complete number) of Gentiles come in, the hardening that Israel was experiencing would be lifted. God would redirect His focus back on Israel after the rapture . This is my study of the interpretation of this word in the context of this particular passage. You must understand that my way of studying and interpretation of scripture may be different than yours. For example , I treat the word of God in a literal method . I do not spiritualize passages. I also believe that there is a distinction between Israel and the church. Because of these differences, we may not agree on the interpretation of the passages in question.

 

[bibletruth469]

And what if that "very last person" is a Jew? The fact is that Jewish believers also make up that very same body of Christ which is the Church. This fully destroys the notion that the "last gentile" entering the body = the last human entering the body.

That's why Paul calls this a mystery in Romans 11:25. The fulness of the Gentiles is a mystery. The church and Israel are distinct groups except in the case of salvation. All are one in Christ no matter what the background . For example, there is a messianic Jew . Therefore, I have to go by what the scripture says in this passage . ( it is a mystery, church and Israel are different groups , but are one in Christ - in other words, once a gentile or Jew becomes a believer , they are one in Christ.

Back to your comment: I believe because they are different groups , the last believing Gentile is what will cause the rapture to take place.

 

[dfw69]

Once a person receives the mark of the antichrist, that person has no chance of salvation. They already made the choice and will be lost forever.

Yeah by that time they refuse to repent

 

[parousia70]

I treat the word of God in a literal method . I do not spiritualize passages.

Except of course when it comes to passages such as "Must shortly take place, for the time is near", is coming soon, will not delay, the time is at hand, it is the last hour, etc, etc....

You are no literlaist BT.
You spiritualize and elasticize these clear literal time statements into meaningless blather - near means far, shortly means long time, at hand and about to take place means 2000+ years away...

You have shown that you avoid literalism at all costs when it comes to these passages.

Stop claiming to be something you clearly, demonstrably are not.

 

[dfw69]

Except of course when it comes to passages such as "Must shortly take place, for the time is near", is coming soon, will not delay, the time is at hand, it is the last hour, etc, etc....

You are no literlaist BT.
You spiritualize and elasticize these clear literal time statements into meaningless blather - near means far, shortly means long time, at hand and about to take place means 2000+ years away...

You have shown that you avoid literalism at all costs when it comes to these passages.

Stop claiming to be something you clearly, demonstrably are not.

It literally says one day with The Lord is as 1000 years and 1000 years as one day

Looks like two times in scripture .. Gods time and our time ... To god ...our time is short.. understand?

 

[Douggg]

You make a good argument, I am curious though if your aware of any Islamic beliefs though. Not that their doctrine is right(I agree it isn't) just their many beliefs they have that can persuade one to see them being highly involved during the 7 year reign of the ac.


In Shi’a Islamic tradition, Jesus will return again, but not alone. Rather, He will return with Muhammad al-Mahdi: the prophesied redeemer of Islam who, it is believed, will bring peace and justice to an utterly chaotic world by establishing Islam everywhere. And, according to Islam, Jesus not only will be subservient to al-Mahdi, but Jesus will kill all, including Christians and Jews, who do not convert to Islam and pledge allegiance to Allah.

Leaves a plausible scenario where the beast and false prophet are Muslim and uniting Islam countries to wage war with Jerusalem. So to dismiss them prior to the 7 year reign isn't entirely sound, since this Islamic belief would align up with Daniels peace treaty and rev13. killing all who don't worship the beast.

Yes, I looked into the possibility of the Mahdi being the Antichrist about 12 years ago. I joined several muslim discussion boards and learned about their end time prophecies.

Here is the one of the major problems with the Mahdi being the Antichrist, and Isa being the false prophet. There are not enough biblical end times antagonists to match up.

Mahdi = the Antichrist
Isa = the false prophet
Dajeel = ?????? There is no biblical match.

In muslim end times belief the Mahdi and his army are supposed to be locked in battle with the Dajeel and Isa (Jesus) comes to the rescue.

But there is no antagonist in the bible to match up with the Dajeel. What basically it boils down to is the muslim end times prophecies are a poor take-off of the biblical end times prophecies.

 

[James-49]

My question is a serious enquiry - not intended for flaming, bashing, or defaming. I know what I have concluded to this point, but there's been some good feedback on previous posts that gained me a better understanding.

2Th 2:3
"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition"

Could "falling away" be in reference to the Reformation of 1517?

Thank you everyone for your feedback to my OP. I've come to the conclusion that I don't have enough information to support my speculation that the falling away may be related to the reformation, but I'm also not persuaded on a falling away yet-to-happen position either.

This thread has taken a turn since my OP, and I'm following it with interest.

 

[TPeterY]

Hi TPY, I use the KJV at Biblegateway.com.

King James Version (KJV Bible) - Version Information - BibleGateway.com

Other sources? I am assuming you mean bible commentaries. No, I don't use any of those.

How I came to the conclusion that Islam would end before the time of the 7 years begin? It is a combination of factors. One is that the Antichrist must appear to the Jews as being the promised great King of Israel to lead them and the world into the messianic age. And that one of the criteria in Judaism is that the messiah fights the battles of God in defending Israel.

So the known enemies of Israel will have to be eliminated before entering the messianic era. Many of the Jews themselves believe the messiah will arrive following Gog/Magog.

Secondly, the Antichrist will for that last 42 months (having passed through the King of Israel messiah phase, no longer considered as) be worshiped by the world, according to Revelation 13, by everyone other than the elect. Muslims are not considered the elect.

Which if Islam were a going concern at that time, there would be a huge segment of the world's population that would not worship the Antichrist beast, because of the fundamentals of their religion - which would be out of step with what the bible says, So Islam won't be around then.

Thirdly, we have to consider the underlying motivation of the ten kings - to be in the middle east. And that is to control all of the middle east oil - which those muslims countries will no longer be going concerns at that time.

In Revelation 13, the beast is presented as a dual representation, the only place in Revelation, as both kingdom and king. The composite makeup of the body of the beast - represents the territories of the former historic empires of Babylon, Medes-Persians, Greece - that the beast will control. Basically, the EU wiil control the middle east oil is what that composite body make-up is factoring in.

Later, toward the end of the 7 years, when the judgments of God have crippled the world's energy resources - the ten kings will be controlling that supply, mostly for themselves.

The rest of the world, the south, the north, and the east are going to be forced to attack the Antichrist beast and the ten kings in order to get at the oil to survive. That's what will be the driver for the battles in Daniel 11:40-45.

Hey Dougg, I spent some time trying to figure out how you came to the conclusion that the Antichrist must appear to the Jews as being their promised great King of Israel.

Is this somewhere I can look up in the bible to make better sense of it? I couldn't entirely make sense of everything else below the paragraph I colored in green because of the first paragraph (colored in red).

I do entirely agree with the 2nd paragraph in the green. It's right on.

I'll leave it up to you if you wanna elaborate on the first paragraph (high-lighted in red). It's just I have no knowledge of the Jews embracing the Antichrist as their messiah and therefore can't make sense of the rest of the reasons.

The only thing I can add for now is, have you by chance ever placed the Ezekiel 38 war in the last 42 months of the tribulation? Take some time if you have to and see if that'll help place the events of the end in proper order for you. You don't have to reply back soon.

But if you want me to show you in the bible why it's in the last 42 months, just lemme know.

 

[Douggg]

TPY,

Matthew 24:42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The son of David.

Luke 19:37 And when he was come nigh, even now at the descent of the mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to rejoice and praise God with a loud voice for all the mighty works that they had seen;
38 Saying, Blessed be the King that cometh in the name of the Lord: peace in heaven, and glory in the highest.

"the" Christ means the specific person who descended from King David to be the King of Israel, to lead Israel and the world into the messianic age.

So substituting for Christ in AntiChrist, it becomes Anti-King of Israel, Son of David. The Anti prefix meaing "in lieu of" and/or "against".

In the case of the Antichrist, both meanings will apply. First, he will be the King of Israel, Son of David in lieu of Jesus. And against the belief that Jesus was the one who God sent to be the King of Israel, Son of David.

In 1John2:18, that Antichrist is coming. Them John was speaking to had already heard about. Where they would have gotten that idea was they grasp what Jesus said about them (the Jews) rejecting him, but another coming in his own name, they would accept. John was confirming that belief as being true.

So here we are in 2014. No temple standing for the animal sacrifices to be done, as part of the end times prophecies. And many Jews believing that the messiah, their promised great King, must be partake in its construction. No one saying peace and safety at last. So what is missing is the messiah - enter the Antichrist.

Gog/Magog - I once viewed it at mid-70th week. Changed my mind about ten years ago.

Upon close examination, there are two feasts in Ezekiel 39. Second feast in Ezekiel 39:17-20 is the Armageddon feast, text matches Revelation 19:17-18. Count back seven years to the beginning of the 70th week. The 70th week is initiated by the confirming of the covenant by the Prince who shall come.

So seven years of burning the war implements of Gog's army = the 70th week period. Which would place Gog/Magog immediately before the Antichrist arriving and confirming the covenant, as the perceived messiah, to be King of Israel, to the Jews.

Antichrist as being the (illicit) King of Israel, Son of David runs from the beginning of the 70th week to about 3 years 4 months later. Then that phase is over. The next phase (very short) is the revealed man of sin/then the beast of Revelation.