Discussing fallacies is rarely going to make for profitable conversation, particularly attempting to highlight the fallacies of those who argue against us. Rhetoric is far more important in understanding discourse than logic, with the more profitable angle being to discuss the ethos and pathos, and leaving critical appraisal of the logos to our own and not our opponents.
And who enjoys learning who is more intelligent than themselves? I can either accept my limitations or become bitter towards someone who knows more.
That's interesting. I genuinely hadn't yet run into this term in my Historiographical studies. I'll have to file it away as a foil for studying the historical effects of countercultural propaganda and stereotyping. Thanks for sharing it.
I think it becomes innate. We tend to "look up" (aka build upward models of comparison on intersubjective and group levels)...for whatever reason (I'd still guess a boring answer of "fairness" underlying the moral model of any system).
When we believe we are making downward comparisons that are uncharitable and unforgiving....we are frequently misunderstood as "biased" or "racist" or "bigoted".
For example lol...
If I were to suggest that because the average adult male Guatemalan has the average equivalent education of a 4th grade student and doesn't speak English nor likely is he to learn it....importing millions of them illegally in a couple of years is a bad idea for many reasons, the main one being a net negative impact on economic prosperity....but also other things.
Now...even without checking my claims about the average adult male education and English fluency on the potential for net positive economic contributions in the US....how does that argument feel intuitively? Immoral? Unkind? Judgemental? Bigoted? Racist?
Yet if I were to throw far more vicious claims at those who one might imagine are in positions of authority or wealth or power....obviously those aren't only acceptable, but they're seen as entirely justifiable even if they're made from a position of total ignorance.
Whether this is ultimately a feature of Christian morality in certain cultures and it's vast influence, or an innate feature of mankind in general is something I'm unsure of....but what I am sure of is the pressures it creates in multicultural societies where assimilation is not necessary or expected.
Only if those around me start thinking they really are defined by the term, "Proletariat." At least, that's my theoretical, knee-jerk assessment.
I think 90% of those around you using the word proletariat conversationally don't have a clue what it means. I think that's why it was generally swapped with "oppressor/oppressed".
There are people out there who, like Smaug, think their positions and views of the world are unassailable.
I feel more like Gollum. I know what's precious to me. I know what I'm willing to do to keep or get it back. Jump right in the fire.
Some of those folks hold the certainty that they because ........ well, they're smart in one way or another.
And that's fair. Anyone smart enough to realize how smart they are should, inevitably, realize how little they know or could possibly understand....but that's a fleeting feeling, isn't it? We prefer simple answers....innately....so we adopt them against better judgment.
And, sadly, others hold to their certainty because they're in need of the services of a good psychiatrist.
Ok...I think that I've yet to run into those people lol. They tend to run or become silent. They need a crowd to avoid any serious examination...but alone...without the guardrails of polite society, forum moderation, to protect their ideas? C'mon.....
I remember the old internet lol. You would see the occasional goofball clinging to simplistic notions of complete self reliability and assurance in pure understanding of.....anything. They were chased off by people of average intellect (me!) and silenced themselves in shame or siloed themselves in group thought bubbles.
I bet you have an interesting story to tell.
Nope...well, I may have an interesting story, but I'm not really a story-teller...and can't hope to tell it in an accessible way. Same problem you seem to have.
Yes, you're right. The sense of certainty a number of people have seems to run strongly in various political streams. On some level, I fully realize the troubles they've seen in life contribute to their feelings about when and where and how the pain of the world should be alleviated. Reasonableness in the face of life's frustrations is a difficult thing to achieve. Reasonableness itself, with the sobriety that it nurtures, isn't a common thing to acquire, and I think we both know this can be the case even when the chips do fall in one's own favor.
See...the funny thing is, above, I took you to be suggesting that I'd have some interesting life experiences to relate. To me, those have become boring...so I considered you as the audience for an interesting story and decided upon a thematic question about what good might be found in the greatest evil and what bad might be found in the greatest good. A deeply philosophical and religious question. Then I decided I'm not the one to say it lol.
Of course that's the case. Christians have known----or should have known-----this would typically be the case at least since the time Paul strode atop Mars Hill in Athens and dared to drop a syllable or two.
How do you think that went down assuming of course, it went down? Obviously, the audience that gets captured is seeing the masterpiece, right? But Picasso didn't start off a master once he put pencil to paper....do you imagine Paul basically blowing it on the first few dozen attempts?
For me, "winning" is when someone actually listens and considers.
On here I've had two doubtful Christians thank me for "helping" them accept a non-religious viewpoint they now claimed to hold. Now, was I trying to make convincing arguments? Yes. Was I doing it for their benefit of understanding truth? No. In time, I began to wonder if I had helped in taking something that might have helped them through difficulties of life, or grief. I wondered if I had yanked them from helpful communities that would be a source of comfort at least and left them wandering into new communities that would simply use them or prey upon them. For what it's worth...I don't try to convince anyone from a standpoint of uncertainty anymore. What can I really know of Gods I've never known?
Doubts are fine, and I don't have a camp for anyone to join. I should have offered advice on what they were getting from their conviction, and what they would lose by abandoning it. What they stand to gain isn't obvious if it's simply a hole of wanting community without self regard. We aren't really supposed to be "doing life" alone. Those few amongst us who wander out into the unknown are often pushed by circumstances we don't see...and imagine greatness led to their deeds if they are recognized as admirable.
I'd ask, "And what did you see??," but I'm not wanting to take this thread down a less than useful tangent.
It's fine. I'm no religious scholar. I'd say revelations describes the collapse of a kind of "order" as the fearful and terrifying thing it is...and glorifying the birth of a new, and in the context, perfect "order"...and that's as general a lesson as I can give it. It's too easy write off as the ravings of lunatics. There's a primordial theme there that's almost subconscious and difficult to access.
Not really off topic imo. Maps well onto social collapse.
Or...you know, the ravings of madmen. I think you should ask yourself if you even want to stop collapse and if you think the communists are scary, take comfort that while they are more numerous and zealous than previously understood, they aren't very good at it. They can't see the obstacle right under their noses, have dogmatic views of power, and foolish understanding of needs. They only succeed long enough to become failures. They imagine that the square peg won't go into the round hole because of something wrong with the peg, or maybe the hole...but not themselves.
THESE DAYS, I'm constantly asking myself: what does it actually take to convince those who consider themselves to be my enemy that I'm working for their well-being?
If you lack the conviction that is only gained through ignorance to lead....
Then I'd propose that the only good is to serve any as best you can...and by this do good. Those who lead would need such help.
I've found that the answer to this is that there's "something else going on and building in the world," something that no amount of student management classes at the universities, and no amount of books or textbooks on the psychology of human motivation, can actually account for and teach even teachers in the public realm how to compensate.
No, I think the world is finally becoming so complicated in the midst of its electronic unification that the old "factory" mentality of education can no longer manage the case load and no amount of "constructivist" models of education will be able to compensate.
Oof...that's dark. Well...if I were king, emperor, or close enough to power to fix problems....
I'd return the focus to family. Absent good education, and gainful or meaningful employment, family will keep social bonds from complete deterioration. Raise wages at the bottom, depress costs at the top, manage growth to a trickle, reorient value along lines of necessity of labor not difficulty or innovation....then rebuild the educational system. Divide what must be public from what should be private. We wouldn't suffer me long...so whatever I do must be hard to undo after me. Essentially, I'd point out that we need garbagemen...doctors, nurses, teachers, farmers, police and the like....far more than financial speculators and value trading gamblers...and remove their toys. Trim away needless bureaucracy. Those I have to hurt are few and should be hurt all at once, those I am responsible to help are many and should be given what they need slowly to understand the continual good of my rule and by the time enough smart people understand what I've done, I'll be loved enough to not be executed.
But who wants to work that hard for those who don't understand? Let it collapse. Serve any seeking help...as best you can.
