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SeraphimSarov

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The pardoned ones get mercy.
The unpardoned ones get justice.

Why do some get mercy and others don't? How is that just?

Jesus rose from the dead. Nobody else did.

How do you know this happened? There are many other religions which claim to have resurrections, and you certainly don't believe those. What makes Jesus special?
 
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Skala

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Then why is it called "faith"?
There's a word for "trust". It's "trust".

Since another word is used consistently, there must be some kind of difference.
What is this difference?

For example.... when I use the word "trust", I mean something like "reasonable expectation based on previous evidence / experience".

Like "I trust the airplane will get me safely to my destination".
By saying that, I acknowledge that there is a possibility that something goes wrong. Sometimes even VERY wrong. However, statistics show it is the safest way of travel and the vast majority of people get to their destination safely.

Based on that data, I trust the plane will get me safely to my destination.

Can you explain how "faith" is different, in context of that example of "trust"?

Bruh, faith and trust are synonymous.

The greek word for "faith" is 'pistis', which is defined as this in Strong's Concordance:

pistis: faith, faithfulness
Original Word: πίστις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: pistis
Phonetic Spelling: (pis'-tis)
Short Definition: faith, belief, trust
Definition: faith, belief, trust, confidence; fidelity, faithfulness.
 
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Hammster

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Well, I'll try. I can guarantee I won't be satisfied with my answer, and you probably won't be, either...

I was born into Roman Catholicism. My paternal grandfather was a deacon, and his wife, my grandma, attended mass daily, no matter what the weather. My grandpa taught me my first full sentence: "Praise the Lord!" Everyone who knew my grandma said she was a Saint (in the upper-case, Roman Catholic sense). Anyway, I went to CCD, received my first communion, and was confirmed. I had aspirations of becoming a priest and/or a monk when I was young. I used to set up a bunch of chairs with all of my stuffed animals, put on robes and read from my children's missal and pretend I was a priest.

I got older and was influenced by evangelical Christianity. Most of my friends in high school went to an evangelical youth group, which they invited me to attend. I had never studied the Bible much up until then. I read it, but I did not understand what I was reading. I received some explanations for some of my questions at this youth group. Even so, I held onto my Roman Catholic identity, often taking flak for wearing a crucifix instead of an empty cross. During my sophomore year of high school, I met my future wife at this youth group.

I became suicidally depressed. I was excelling in my advanced classes, was very athletic and had good friends and family, but the world turned into utter darkness for me. My friends tried to help me, but I got worse. My parents were utterly non-responsive. The youth pastor attempted to exorcise me after one evening of uncontrollable weeping, but it accomplished nothing. My faith in God waivered, but I held on.

I got to college and neglected the faith utterly. I partied. I drank. I got into literally Satanic music. I hated my studies, but I was too apathetic to do anything about it. I was still suicidally depressed, but it had become a fact of life, and I did not feel I could be helped. One night during my third year, I lost it while at work. I couldn't stop crying. I could not carry on, nor did I want to. For the first time in years, I prayed. I told God that I didn't know what to ask for, but I wanted to believe, I wanted to be a good person, I wanted my life to be worth something.

So I stopped drinking, stopped partying, started pouring myself into my studies and tried to pray and re-learn everything I thought I knew about the truth, which I thought had to be some form of Christianity. My search for the truth landed me in the Orthodox Church. I believed I had found home. My fiancee and I fought bitterly over the issue, as she was still very much evangelical, but eventually we both were brought into the church via chrismation (the Western equivalent would be confirmation, I suppose) during Great Lent 2008. My new Orthodox friends were wonderful. I thought God had shown me the way back. The depression went away.

I graduated college and got married. We leased a house together, and I once again contemplated the priesthood. I was already a chanter, I sang in the choir, and I had a rather popular blog. But things were falling apart. My parish priest requested to be transferred, and before I knew it, the parish I belonged to shattered. My friends were gone. I had a new priest who seemed to believe a different version of Orthodoxy than that which I had been taught. And my wife didn't like him at all. Nevertheless, we stuck it out.

The depression returned, worse than ever. I couldn't find a job. My wife and I struggled with our finances, even as our parish demanded a tithe. I talked to my priest about my mental health, and he recommended I see a therapist. So I did. He was so taken aback by my suicidal ideation that he sent me to an emergency clinic for antidepressants. This marked the official beginning of my struggle with my mental health.

The pills didn't help at all. In fact, I got worse. My first psychiatric hospitalization was in November of 2008, the same year I graduated college and got married and was received into Orthodoxy. My priest didn't visit me once, nor did he call. Same with the rest of my parish. When I was released and returned to church, nobody said a thing about it. I didn't particularly want to talk about it, anyway, but I felt isolated. And in December, I was admitted again. I brought in 2009 locked on a psych ward, denied my shoes, my belt, my crucifix, my watch, my phone, my laptop, everything. I spent all of my free time in the hospital begging God to help me.

After I was released, once again, nobody wanted to talk to me. Finally, while chanting vespers one March night, I couldn't deal with it anymore. I left in the middle of the service. I never returned. And when I arrived home, I lost it. I screamed at God, every obscenity I could think of, daring him to damn me. I no longer had my sanity, and once I finished screaming, I no longer had my God. I received no answer from him.

The years following are a blur. I tried to get a job as a pharmacy technician, but I couldn't because everything I learned during my training was erased after I was given electroconvulsive therapy. No combination of medications would help, and my doctors were desperate. So was I. I tried again to shift careers, this time into nursing. I landed a good job at Loyola University Medical Center, but I was too ill to handle it. I watched a man slowly die while under my care, and there was nothing I could do for him because he was a DNR. He screamed and writhed for hours, and nothing would calm him. Finally, he died, and I performed post-mortem care. Nobody had visited him the entire time he was hospitalized. This would be difficult for anybody to handle, but for someone who was now diagnosed with bipolar disorder, this was too much. I had to quit.

Fast forward a few years, and my illness got even worse. I attempted suicide in 2014, even while attempting to resume praying to God and going to a different church. At this point, I was hallucinating and delusional, and my diagnosis was changed again to schizoaffective disorder, bipolar type. To this day, I am taking a myriad of antidepressants, antipsychotics and mood stabilizers. Nothing works.

So why was I a Christian? For a variety of reasons, as you can see. For all of my praying, God never took away my illness, and as the years pass, I keep getting worse. Does that prove there is no God? Of course not. However, it is undeniable that he did not answer my prayers. I have had ten psychiatric hospitalizations in total, and by now, my wife and I have no money and our credit is trashed from our inability to pay for my medical bills. My in-laws, who are evangelical Christians, will have nothing to do with me because they believe I am possessed. Other Christian relatives have told me the same. And I will never forget -- indeed, never will I forgive -- those people at my parish who completely ignored my plight. And when I turned to Jesus for comfort, I never found him. I tried, over and over. But I was alone and desolate.

As I write this, I feel nothing, but the voices are raging. I wouldn't be revealing all this if I didn't think that maybe, just maybe, I'm missing something. I used to hate God. I've gotten over that. In a way, I envy people who believe so strongly in their God. They seem to really think that they have all the answers. At this point, I no longer believe that there are answers, just questions, which is why I am loathe to make assertions -- I know full well that there is always a way to discredit something, anything, somebody says. Even reason and logic eventually fall apart under their own presuppositions.

I guess you got that novel after all. Sorry.
Wow. That's quite the life story.

My wife and I have a similar story with her chronic illness. We have had the financial issues and medical debt that forced us into bankruptcy. We've had crisises of faith. The whole nine yards.

I don't think I have all the answers, though. I don't know why my wife isn't healed, except that we've seen God glorified through it. Our lives come down to this: we've determined to know nothing but Christ and Him crucified. What that means is that whatever hardship we may encounter, it's nothing compared to what Jesus endured on the cross for us.

I know God is good, even though I don't understand it all. I also know that this life is a momentary light affliction compared to the weight of glory that's before me. So just as Jesus endured the cross due to the joy set before Him, I can do (endure) all things because of Him.
 
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Hammster

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I read the entire thread and one thing I've noticed, is that instead of clearing up what christians mean with the word "faith", it only became even more obscure.
I didn't know that was the question.
 
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Skala

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Why do some get mercy and others don't? How is that just?

How is it unjust?

How do you know this happened?

I was born in 1981. So I don't know for sure it happened. But I also don't know that anything before 1981 for sure happened. How do you know Lincoln was shot? How do you know there was even a guy named "Abraham Lincoln"? You don't. You weren't there. (Unless you're really, really old!).

My point is, just because we don't personally witness something doesn't mean we can't be intellectually satisfied in believing that it really happened in history. In the case of Lincoln, we're relying on history books and hoping they aren't deceiving us.

But we also know it would be really hard for someone to fabricate that story (and thus deceive future generations). Why do we know that? Because we are aware of the concept of falsifiability. In other words, the idea that a man named Abraham Lincoln existed and was president is falsifiable. It means it's so easy to disprove, that if it hasn't been, it must be true. If someone invented the fictional figure of Abrahman Lincoln and tried to deceive future generations with a story about him being president, his fictional account wouldn't have lasted more than his own generation. Why? Because of all the people living during that time. They could have easily just said "Nah, that's not true, he's making it up".

The same is true of Jesus' life and death and resurrection. It's falsifiable.

Not only is it falsifiable, but consider the fact that the apostles were willing to die for the claims they were making. If they were making stuff up, would they really be willing to be tortured and crucified and murdered for it? All for a lie? Keep in mind these were the same disciples that ran scared after Jesus died. Peter even denied Jesus three times out of fear, before Jesus' death.

Yet after the alleged resurrection, suddenly the apostles were fearless. Even to the point of death.

You don't throw your life away for a lie.

There are many other religions which claim to have resurrections, and you certainly don't believe those. What makes Jesus special?

All I can say is you should study this issue more. Please know that resurrection wasn't a unique or uncommon concept during the time of Jesus' life. So for the apostles to claim he was resurrected,they had to have something extra special for their claim to be believed.

Jesus differs from other resurrected figures in many ways:

1) only Jesus knew about his pending death
2) only Jesus went to his death willingly
3) only Jesus was returned by his own power (the other historical figures were resurrected by someone else, for example, another deity or a power greater than they,)
4) only Jesus had witnesses
5) Jesus is the only rising "savior". The other guys only rose "because it's cool". But none of the others were saviors. In the Bible His resurrection directly gives us benefits. So his resurrection isn't about him only, but also about you. It is a selfless resurrection.

Even the Apostle Paul (he wrote most of the new testament) admitted that if Jesus didn't resurrect, then Christianity is stupid and everyone should stop believing it immediately because it would be in vain.

Yet Paul continued to believe and preach and teach.
 
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Well, I'll try. I can guarantee I won't be satisfied with my answer, and you probably won't be, either...

I was born into Roman Catholicism. My paternal grandfather was a deacon, and his wife, my grandma, attended mass daily, no matter what the weather. My grandpa taught me my first full sentence: "Praise the Lord!" Everyone who knew my grandma said she was a Saint (in the upper-case, Roman Catholic sense). Anyway, I went to CCD, received my first communion, and was confirmed. I had aspirations of becoming a priest and/or a monk when I was young. I used to set up a bunch of chairs with all of my stuffed animals, put on robes and read from my children's missal and pretend I was a priest.

I got older and was influenced by evangelical Christianity. Most of my friends in high school went to an evangelical youth group, which they invited me to attend. I had never studied the Bible much up until then. I read it, but I did not understand what I was reading. I received some explanations for some of my questions at this youth group. Even so, I held onto my Roman Catholic identity, often taking flak for wearing a crucifix instead of an empty cross. During my sophomore year of high school, I met my future wife at this youth group.

I became suicidally depressed. I was excelling in my advanced classes, was very athletic and had good friends and family, but the world turned into utter darkness for me. My friends tried to help me, but I got worse. My parents were utterly non-responsive. The youth pastor attempted to exorcise me after one evening of uncontrollable weeping, but it accomplished nothing. My faith in God waivered, but I held on.

I got to college and neglected the faith utterly. I partied. I drank. I got into literally Satanic music. I hated my studies, but I was too apathetic to do anything about it. I was still suicidally depressed, but it had become a fact of life, and I did not feel I could be helped. One night during my third year, I lost it while at work. I couldn't stop crying. I could not carry on, nor did I want to. For the first time in years, I prayed. I told God that I didn't know what to ask for, but I wanted to believe, I wanted to be a good person, I wanted my life to be worth something.

So I stopped drinking, stopped partying, started pouring myself into my studies and tried to pray and re-learn everything I thought I knew about the truth, which I thought had to be some form of Christianity. My search for the truth landed me in the Orthodox Church. I believed I had found home. My fiancee and I fought bitterly over the issue, as she was still very much evangelical, but eventually we both were brought into the church via chrismation (the Western equivalent would be confirmation, I suppose) during Great Lent 2008. My new Orthodox friends were wonderful. I thought God had shown me the way back. The depression went away.

I graduated college and got married. We leased a house together, and I once again contemplated the priesthood. I was already a chanter, I sang in the choir, and I had a rather popular blog. But things were falling apart. My parish priest requested to be transferred, and before I knew it, the parish I belonged to shattered. My friends were gone. I had a new priest who seemed to believe a different version of Orthodoxy than that which I had been taught. And my wife didn't like him at all. Nevertheless, we stuck it out.

The depression returned, worse than ever. I couldn't find a job. My wife and I struggled with our finances, even as our parish demanded a tithe. I talked to my priest about my mental health, and he recommended I see a therapist. So I did. He was so taken aback by my suicidal ideation that he sent me to an emergency clinic for antidepressants. This marked the official beginning of my struggle with my mental health.

The pills didn't help at all. In fact, I got worse. My first psychiatric hospitalization was in November of 2008, the same year I graduated college and got married and was received into Orthodoxy. My priest didn't visit me once, nor did he call. Same with the rest of my parish. When I was released and returned to church, nobody said a thing about it. I didn't particularly want to talk about it, anyway, but I felt isolated. And in December, I was admitted again. I brought in 2009 locked on a psych ward, denied my shoes, my belt, my crucifix, my watch, my phone, my laptop, everything. I spent all of my free time in the hospital begging God to help me.

After I was released, once again, nobody wanted to talk to me. Finally, while chanting vespers one March night, I couldn't deal with it anymore. I left in the middle of the service. I never returned. And when I arrived home, I lost it. I screamed at God, every obscenity I could think of, daring him to damn me. I no longer had my sanity, and once I finished screaming, I no longer had my God. I received no answer from him.

The years following are a blur. I tried to get a job as a pharmacy technician, but I couldn't because everything I learned during my training was erased after I was given electroconvulsive therapy. No combination of medications would help, and my doctors were desperate. So was I. I tried again to shift careers, this time into nursing. I landed a good job at Loyola University Medical Center, but I was too ill to handle it. I watched a man slowly die while under my care, and there was nothing I could do for him because he was a DNR. He screamed and writhed for hours, and nothing would calm him. Finally, he died, and I performed post-mortem care. Nobody had visited him the entire time he was hospitalized. This would be difficult for anybody to handle, but for someone who was now diagnosed with bipolar disorder, this was too much. I had to quit.

Fast forward a few years, and my illness got even worse. I attempted suicide in 2014, even while attempting to resume praying to God and going to a different church. At this point, I was hallucinating and delusional, and my diagnosis was changed again to schizoaffective disorder, bipolar type. To this day, I am taking a myriad of antidepressants, antipsychotics and mood stabilizers. Nothing works.

So why was I a Christian? For a variety of reasons, as you can see. For all of my praying, God never took away my illness, and as the years pass, I keep getting worse. Does that prove there is no God? Of course not. However, it is undeniable that he did not answer my prayers. I have had ten psychiatric hospitalizations in total, and by now, my wife and I have no money and our credit is trashed from our inability to pay for my medical bills. My in-laws, who are evangelical Christians, will have nothing to do with me because they believe I am possessed. Other Christian relatives have told me the same. And I will never forget -- indeed, never will I forgive -- those people at my parish who completely ignored my plight. And when I turned to Jesus for comfort, I never found him. I tried, over and over. But I was alone and desolate.

As I write this, I feel nothing, but the voices are raging. I wouldn't be revealing all this if I didn't think that maybe, just maybe, I'm missing something. I used to hate God. I've gotten over that. In a way, I envy people who believe so strongly in their God. They seem to really think that they have all the answers. At this point, I no longer believe that there are answers, just questions, which is why I am loathe to make assertions -- I know full well that there is always a way to discredit something, anything, somebody says. Even reason and logic eventually fall apart under their own presuppositions.

I guess you got that novel after all. Sorry.

You have walked (and are walking) an immensely difficult and painful path. With some of it I can identify with parallels to my own path; with others, my imagination is all I have to understand, and that does not help me know very well what you have experienced (e.g., schizoaffective disorder, bipolar type stuff and life on the drugs). I came out of atheism to some brand of evangelical Christianity, have chronic illness, and have been helped for example by the book "How Long, O Lord: Reflections on evil and suffering" (D.A. Carson), such that my faith in God remains intact as of this writing, though if my eyes and ears and brain went solely through your life experiences, I cannot say the place I would land would be very different from your own present one (granting that we are different people and that God--from my perspective--does different things with different people).

The religious faith such as I have suggests for example that all persons are sinners and therefore that most of us (!) are sinned-against, but your complaint is at least partly with God, or with a God who does not alleviate suffering and evil--or now as an atheist you have a hard time understanding how people have faith in a God who does not alleviate suffering or answer prayers to take the unbearable away.

Aside from the probability that in further conversation I would hold, where applicable, to a position rather like that in the above-mentioned book, at this point it would probably be best for me to let you respond if you wish and to agree that some unanswered questions (and pain) will remain (that is for me too even if some of the questions and pain may be different than yours).
 
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SnowyMacie

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The question is simple. Why do Christians have faith?

Here's why I believe...

- I believe in a god all I've learned about the universe and nature, everything from astrophysics to microbiology, I don't see how it could have happened, and everything exists and work the way it does without a Creator.
- I believe in God partially because I grew up in a Christian home, and partially because of what follows...
- I believe Jesus is the Son of God. I believe that partially from his birth, life, and teachings, but mostly due to his resurrection.
- I believe Jesus resurrected from the dead because I think the literal, physical resurrection of Christ is the best explanation for the origin of Christianity.
There's ultimately three choices when it comes to Jesus,
1) He didn't exist - This doesn't fit into the origins of Christianity. I don't know why anyone would make up a story that gave them no immediate personal gain, wealth, and would ultimately end in their death. There are Roman records consistent with Biblical accounts of persecution.
2) He was just a man - If Jesus was just a man and didn't rise from the dead, 1. Where is his body? 2. If his body was stolen, someone at some point would have cracked and said "We hid it!", or if it was a conspiracy, and only two or three people knew, it's again the worst conspiracy ever as it gives them no personal gain whatsoever.
3) He was who he says he was. - As irrational as the idea of someone rising from the dead is (which is why it's a big deal that Jesus did), the essential either comes down believing sociopathic lunatics or believing that Jesus is the Messiah and Son of God.
- Therefore, since Jesus is the Son of God, he would best know how people should live their life. He wrote our biology, psychology, so he would know how to live the best way possible for everyone.
- Thus, I believe Christianity is the best way to live.
 
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Why do some get mercy and others don't? How is that just?

A thief and a murderer stand before a judge for their respective crimes. The judge pardons the murderer and punishes the thief with a fine in proportion to his theft.

The thief complains that the judge was unjust for pardoning the murderer but not himself. Is the thief's complaint justifiable ?

Of course the analogy is not entirely true to the case, for all sins are primarily against God and the judge is assumed to have suffered damages by neither thief nor murderer. And while one may question the authority of a human judge to pardon murder, God does have such authority.

By definition mercy, where authority exists to grant it, is not deserved, and can justly be given or withheld. Envy, on the other hand, is a sin, and such seems the problem with the thief.
 
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How do you know this happened [that Jesus uniquely rose from the dead]? There are many other religions which claim to have resurrections, and you certainly don't believe those. What makes Jesus special?

While I would not argue that Jesus alone rose from the dead, the question is large and probably involves digressions. One brief response is to point elsewhere, of which http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/historical-evidence-for-the-resurrection is one place, though of course not in itself a complete answer (though worth a read). Otherwise I am unaware of what "many other religions" than Judaism and Christianity claim resurrections occurred and whether reincarnations are considered the same as resurrections.
 
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AV1611VET

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I read the entire thread and one thing I've noticed, is that instead of clearing up what christians mean with the word "faith", it only became even more obscure.
I define "faith" as: believing something, even if science says otherwise.
 
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bhsmte

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Okay, but how are you certain of God's existence? And if you possess knowledge that God exists, how is that faith? As defined by the Merriam-Webster dictionary: "firm belief in something for which there is no proof" (emphasis mine, http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/faith). Do you dispute this definition?

IMO, when you hear some claim, they are certain of gods existance, it is driven by a deep need, to reassure onself and is a defense mechanism, to try and overcome deeper doubts.
 
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AV1611VET

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IMO, when you hear some claim, they are certain of gods existance, it is driven by a deep need, to reassure onself and is a defense mechanism, to try and overcome deeper doubts.
I'm waiting for you guys to post your favorite [Mark Twain] definition of "faith."

Has lockjaw set in?
 
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Hammster

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IMO, when you hear some claim, they are certain of gods existance, it is driven by a deep need, to reassure onself and is a defense mechanism, to try and overcome deeper doubts.
I don't have this deep need you speak of. And no deeper doubts. And I'm not defensive. I never get into the "prove God exists" debate. So perhaps you have an uninformed opinion.
 
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food4thought

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How I came to faith and why I currently have faith are two different things.

I came to faith in my late 20's through an intensive 2-3 year period of studying the Bible and listening to teachings and apologetics. At some point, I just realized that I believed and decided to place my faith in Jesus Christ.

I still have faith because once I placed my faith in Jesus I found that His promise of the Holy Spirit indwelling was true.
 
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We use faith in every part of our life. We put faith in things we have NO idea about, but 'hope' will work and is true and right. For example, taking a plane ride requires faith...faith that the plane won't crash, the pilot is adequately trained, and everything will arrive on time. You have faith every time you get in your car that you'll arrive at your destination. When you read a science textbook or article, you put faith that the information contained therein is true, accurate, and isn't out of date.

So, substance of things hoped for and not seen. Just as a Christian puts his faith in God being real, an atheist has faith that He doesn't exist, despite not really knowing. None of us KNOW for certainty if there's life after death, but we put our faith to work on either side of the aisle.
 
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