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JonFromMinnesota

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Evolution: species change over time due to random DNA mutation, natural selection keeps the changes that can best adopt to the environment.

Yep. It also takes place in populations, not individuals. Think of a bear in a snowy environment that has a genetic mutation that gives it white fur and passes this mutation onto it's offspring. Which group of bears is more likely to reproduce and survive in this environment. Bears with white fur or bears with brown fur?

I am simply asking do you have the repeatable verifiable experience that can show how a chimp (or anything related) evolve to human.

Chimps don't become humans. This is your misunderstanding of evolution. We don't come from chimps, we share a common ancestor. Think of it like this: You don't come from your 5th cousin but you share a common ancestor with them.

family+tree.png


It is peer reviewed, and it is only given the possiblity that this is part of the evolution stage, by observation, not repeatable and not testable.

What do you mean not testable? What do you think testing a prediction is doing? They predicted what type of fossil they should find that link to the earliest tetrapods and where they would find it. They took out a geologic map, picked a spot where they should expect to find it and then found it. Three separate skeletons were found.

Likely once one of our ancestors got infected by this it will stay with us forever.

Yep, it is continuously passed down to their decedents. This is irrefutable evidence for common ancestry.

I didn't research if out of 208000 ERV we only share 84 with chimps, but correct me if I am wrong, isn't this shows that we and chimp are not related at all? else we will see much more sharing right?

Only 84 are NOT shared with chimps. That means we share 207,916 ERVs with chimps. This is overwhelming evidence that common ancestry is correct and evolution is true.

This is a free peer reviewed paper that compares the human and chimpanzee genomes if you are interested.
If you have any detailed questions on any of this, your best bet is to ask one of the practicing biologists that frequent this site. SFS is one of them but I haven't seen him around in a while.
http://genome.cshlp.org/content/15/12/1746.full
 
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Out of the article: "Drosophila mojavensis and Drosophila arizonae - represent one species or two is still debated by biologists." It is most likely just DNA mutation within the allow parameters, nothing new is produced.

Define what you mean by allowable parameters. To me, and to all biologists, two populations are a different species if they cannot breed with one another and produce fertile offspring. I don't know the definition when it comes to things that reproduce asexually.

Also you cite the fact that there is still debate. Are you aware that there is no debate on the actual theory of evolution? Why mention that there is debate when it does not seem to be a core concern for you?

Maybe I extended my assumption. Do you think the evolution path from chimp to human is verifiable? Evolution certainly covers it right?

No, you don't understand what evolution is. We did not evolve from chimps; we share a common ancestor with chimps. You have given zero indication that you actually understand the theory.



The major thing is, are those events repeatable and testable?

Yes. We humans simply cannot live long enough to test evolution on organisms that live for years. That's why we observe evolution in viruses and the like.

An immortal scientist could've observed the change from the common ancestor of apes and humans into what we have today. Said immortal scientist could observe future divergences as well.

Does they cover all aspect of Evolution?

I'm not sure what this even means, but it is irrelevant until you prove you even understand what evolution is.

Let me put it to you like this:

In Utah, the public schools force you to take a course (or more?) on Mormon theology. Does this mean you have to believe in Mormonism to pass? Do you have to become an LDS? NO! It simply means you have to understand their theology.

So if you take a course in biology or anthropology, you don't have to believe in evolution. But you have to understand it if you want to have a meaningful conversation with educated atheists. It's simply a pre-requisite. It's painfully clear that you don't know what you're talking about.
 
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dcalling

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Yep. It also takes place in populations, not individuals. Think of a bear in a snowy environment that has a genetic mutation that gives it white fur and passes this mutation onto it's offspring. Which group of bears is more likely to reproduce and survive in this environment. Bears with white fur or bears with brown fur?

We do have agreement here.

Chimps don't become humans. This is your misunderstanding of evolution. We don't come from chimps, we share a common ancestor. Think of it like this: You don't come from your 5th cousin but you share a common ancestor with them.

family+tree.png

The same principle applies. Show me the (or one set of) sequence of DNA changes that will result in Human DNA an Chimp DNA from some common primitive set. If you can do that then it is a theory, else a hypothesis.

What do you mean not testable? What do you think testing a prediction is doing? They predicted what type of fossil they should find that link to the earliest tetrapods and where they would find it. They took out a geologic map, picked a spot where they should expect to find it and then found it. Three separate skeletons were found.

It is prediction and you can use that as supporting evidence, you know full well it is not conclusive evidence.

Yep, it is continuously passed down to their decedents. This is irrefutable evidence for common ancestry.

Only 84 are NOT shared with chimps. That means we share 207,916 ERVs with chimps. This is overwhelming evidence that common ancestry is correct and evolution is true.
This is a free peer reviewed paper that compares the human and chimpanzee genomes if you are interested.
If you have any detailed questions on any of this, your best bet is to ask one of the practicing biologists that frequent this site. SFS is one of them but I haven't seen him around in a while.
http://genome.cshlp.org/content/15/12/1746.full

It is supporting evidence, not conclusive. For example could it be possible that because our genes are so simlar to chimps, that the same virus can have got to both chimp and us, not because of we share a common spot in the past?


Nihilist, I am out of time, I think your question and his are very similar so will use the same answer.
 
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JonFromMinnesota

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The same principle applies. Show me the (or one set of) sequence of DNA changes that will result in Human DNA an Chimp DNA from some common primitive set. If you can do that then it is a theory, else a hypothesis.

Human chromosome 2. The Chimpanzee has near identical DNA sequences to human chromosome 2 but are found in two separate chromosomes. There is a vestigial centromere. In Chromosome 2 there are remnants of a second centromere when a chromosome normally only has 1. There are vestigial telomeres. These are normally only found at the end of a chromosome but in chromosome 2 there are additional telomeres in the center of the chromosome. Researchers were able to pin point the exact place the fusion took place. These are observable and verifiable facts that support common ancestry.

It is prediction and you can use that as supporting evidence, you know full well it is not conclusive evidence.

You left out the part where the predictions evolution makes have been put to the test and confirmed. You can run and hide all you want from these facts but they aren't going away. Evolution predicts that species with more similar traits will be closely related. Test this prediction by putting genomes of different species side by side to compare. They fall into a nested hierarchy, confirming the prediction.

It is supporting evidence, not conclusive. For example could it be possible that because our genes are so simlar to chimps, that the same virus can have got to both chimp and us, not because of we share a common spot in the past?

You're moving the goal posts. Perhaps you don't understand ERVs. Retroviruses make a copy of their own genome and insert it into the host's genome. The retroviral DNA will be inherited by the offspring of the host. What conclusions can you make when you find retrogenes in identical chromosomal positions of two different species? The answer is common ancestry.
 
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dcalling

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Define what you mean by allowable parameters. To me, and to all biologists, two populations are a different species if they cannot breed with one another and produce fertile offspring. I don't know the definition when it comes to things that reproduce asexually.

Allowable parameters: DNA changes that can occur naturally. Initially when I change my stance from atheist to theist, I believe that we evolved naturally from something, the only part God plays is given the living matters intelligence. Now I have this hypothesis that even the initial DNA/RNA etc can't be generated/combined naturally, that there is no natural path from a common ancestor between chimp and man, or most living species.

I do believe that, some DNA mutation can happen, within the original design spec, to allow certain changes that make the same species different.

Also you cite the fact that there is still debate. Are you aware that there is no debate on the actual theory of evolution? Why mention that there is debate when it does not seem to be a core concern for you?

I am aware of scientists who don't believe in evolution, but they are in the minority. Those people are like the ones who believe in earth is round a couple hundreds year ago, if they say it they will be ridiculed. And so here comes the situration when ToE can't be verified yet it is called a theory.

No, you don't understand what evolution is. We did not evolve from chimps; we share a common ancestor with chimps. You have given zero indication that you actually understand the theory.

As I said, if us and chimps share a common ancestor, give proof. You don't need to wait for it to happen, all you need is give proof how a common set of DNA can mutate to human DNA and chimp DNA naturally. No need to wait, just give the chemical formulator.

Yes. We humans simply cannot live long enough to test evolution on organisms that live for years. That's why we observe evolution in viruses and the like.

An immortal scientist could've observed the change from the common ancestor of apes and humans into what we have today. Said immortal scientist could observe future divergences as well.

I answered this in the above post, just show how some common set of DNA can mutate to both Human and Chimp DNA by some chemical reaction, that is repeatable and verifiable.
 
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dcalling

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Human chromosome 2. The Chimpanzee has near identical DNA sequences to human chromosome 2 but are found in two separate chromosomes. There is a vestigial centromere. In Chromosome 2 there are remnants of a second centromere when a chromosome normally only has 1. There are vestigial telomeres. These are normally only found at the end of a chromosome but in chromosome 2 there are additional telomeres in the center of the chromosome. Researchers were able to pin point the exact place the fusion took place. These are observable and verifiable facts that support common ancestry.

Here is the key word fro your post, "observable and verifiable facts that support common ancestry", not observable/verifable facts that prove common ancestry, there is a huge difference.

You left out the part where the predictions evolution makes have been put to the test and confirmed. You can run and hide all you want from these facts but they aren't going away. Evolution predicts that species with more similar traits will be closely related. Test this prediction by putting genomes of different species side by side to compare. They fall into a nested hierarchy, confirming the prediction.

Well, I am not running and hidding, in fact the discussion with you are the most interesting among all other atheists, who keep telling me that I need high school chemistry or similar, also learned something new, I thank you for this :)

I will show you my logic, and you can tell me if there are any holes in it.

Some prediction come true does not mean it is the definite proof. For example I remember some fish/animal (can't remember the name, will name it X) can both breath in water and on land, and was used to show how fish evolved to get to land, so X gives supporting evidence of evolution. Now suppose X is extinct and never been seen, some scientist predicted there must be fish to land evolution at some point, and then fossil of X is found. The prediction come true does not give definite proof, it is still supporting evidence.

You're moving the goal posts. Perhaps you don't understand ERVs. Retroviruses make a copy of their own genome and insert it into the host's genome. The retroviral DNA will be inherited by the offspring of the host. What conclusions can you make when you find retrogenes in identical chromosomal positions of two different species? The answer is common ancestry.
I already told you in my own word what ERV is, and it is the same as your description.
"retrogenes in identical chromosomal positions of two different species" is new evidence you provided, so I can give you another hypothesis on that too. What if the Retroviruses is used to design the DNA? I remember we do this in modern world, use some virus to introduce new properties of some existing species. It might be the only way to design certain DNA patterns, and the human DNA design is just a new product from an existing one. Of course this involves God, but there is no evidence suggests other wise right?

I will also try to dig in retro dna patterns of other species, if Evolution is true, it can be used as marks to see when species diverge, the time of the divergence (i.e. humans and chimps has 28 differences out of the xxx, so we must be very close). But it can also be used to disprove evolution, in that if the timeline are too close, the whole theory will crash by itself. Either way, very thankful for this information.
 
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Allowable parameters: DNA changes that can occur naturally. Initially when I change my stance from atheist to theist, I believe that we evolved naturally from something, the only part God plays is given the living matters intelligence. Now I have this hypothesis that even the initial DNA/RNA etc can't be generated/combined naturally, that there is no natural path from a common ancestor between chimp and man, or most living species.

I do believe that, some DNA mutation can happen, within the original design spec, to allow certain changes that make the same species different.



I am aware of scientists who don't believe in evolution, but they are in the minority. Those people are like the ones who believe in earth is round a couple hundreds year ago, if they say it they will be ridiculed. And so here comes the situration when ToE can't be verified yet it is called a theory.



As I said, if us and chimps share a common ancestor, give proof. You don't need to wait for it to happen, all you need is give proof how a common set of DNA can mutate to human DNA and chimp DNA naturally. No need to wait, just give the chemical formulator.



I answered this in the above post, just show how some common set of DNA can mutate to both Human and Chimp DNA by some chemical reaction, that is repeatable and verifiable.

Just tell us what constitutes "proof" (by which I assume you mean a satisfactory demonstration; there are no proofs in science) for you so we have a defined goal. Otherwise you will continue to move the goalposts.
 
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dcalling

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Just tell us what constitutes "proof" (by which I assume you mean a satisfactory demonstration; there are no proofs in science) for you so we have a defined goal. Otherwise you will continue to move the goalposts.

It is very simple, the proof has to be scientific, meaning testable, repeatable and verifiable. Show me a common DNA that can be mutated naturally to both human and chimp DNA.
 
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JonFromMinnesota

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Show me a common DNA that can be mutated naturally to both human and chimp DNA.

What on earth does this even mean? You keep moving the goal posts and then ask for nonsensical demonstrations.
Please describe in detail what exactly you are looking for.
 
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It is very simple, the proof has to be scientific, meaning testable, repeatable and verifiable. Show me a common DNA that can be mutated naturally to both human and chimp DNA.

You are asking for something that is not possible to demonstrate. It is essentially the same thing as if I were to ask you to show me the holes in Christ's hands. Is that a reasonable request? You might think there's evidence for the resurrection, and you'd point to that, but if I demand to see Christ, you're left with nothing. Similarly, there is an abundance of evidence that humans and apes have a common ancestor, but I cannot board a time machine to videotape the process.

I would like to know by what method of reasoning you accept the resurrection based on "evidence" without seeing it firsthand, and yet reject the evidence of human evolution because you haven't seen the actual process firsthand. I know you'll want to retreat to say that evolution is a scientific claim, whereas the resurrection is a religious claim. But you need to understand that religion does not get a free pass on claims of fact. If your religion is a collection of myths, like how the Jews generally treat the Bible, and if you openly acknowledge that these events did not literally occur, then you can use the shield of religion. But as it stands, as I understand your view, you belief that Jesus literally, physically rose from the dead, and you believe that this is a falsifiable, testable claim, and yet you accept it on "evidence" despite not having seen it.

Also, please clarify:

Are you saying that you accept the observed evolution in viruses, bacteria, and other short-lived, single-celled organisms, since we humans live long enough to observe their evolution, but that you reject human evolution because we do not live long enough to make such observations?
 
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What on earth does this even mean? You keep moving the goal posts and then ask for nonsensical demonstrations.
Please describe in detail what exactly you are looking for.

He wants us to set up a 100,000 year time-lapse video to show a population evolve from one genus into another.
 
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JonFromMinnesota

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He wants us to set up a 100,000 year time-lapse video to show a population evolve from one genus into another.

It's amazing to me that creationists would likely accept a DNA test to demonstrate who their father and mother is but when it shows they share a common ancestor with other species, the cognitive dissonance kicks in.
 
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Chriliman

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The question is simple. Why do Christians have faith?

I tend to define faith as having trust in truth.

I think everyone trusts in truth to some degree. Christians have a specific trust in the truth of God as revealed by Jesus Christ through the Gospels.

You most likely have faith that there is truth that you do not yet know.
 
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JonFromMinnesota

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I tend to define faith as having trust in truth.

I define faith as believing something without evidence and wishful thinking. I don't think it's a virtue.

Christians have a specific trust in the truth of God as revealed by Jesus Christ through the Gospels.

Do you have faith that the gospels are true or do you know they are true? If you say you know they are true, then you have to provide evidence.

You most likely have faith that there is truth that you do not yet know.

Such as what? If I don't know something, the intellectual honest answer is "I don't know".
 
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Chriliman

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I define faith as believing something without evidence and wishful thinking. I don't think it's a virtue.

How do you define evidence?

Do you have faith that the gospels are true or do you know they are true? If you say you know they are true, then you have to provide evidence.

My answer to this depends on how you define evidence.

Such as what? If I don't know something, the intellectual honest answer is "I don't know".

Agreed.
 
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JonFromMinnesota

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How do you define evidence?

Something that is observable, verifiable and testable. If we're talking about the Gospels, those are written by unknown authors, decades after the alleged events and they don't specifically name their sources. Evidence for the miraculous claims in the gospels would be multiple, contemporary and independent sources, none of which exist.
 
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Chriliman

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Something that is observable, verifiable and testable.

Do think logic and reason are observable and testable?

Do you consider logical and reasonable explanations as evidence for what is true?
 
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JonFromMinnesota

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Do think logic and reason are observable and testable?

Logic and reason are tools we use to come to conclusions based on the evidence that is available to us. Are you going to answer my previous question. Do you have faith that the claims in the gospels are true or do you know they are true? Remember, if you say you know they are true, you'll have to provide evidence.
 
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Chriliman

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Logic and reason are tools we use to come to conclusions based on the evidence that is available to us.

So we can't or shouldn't consider the tools themselves as evidence of anything? For example: We should not consider the fact that humanity can do science as evidence that humanity was meant to do science for a specific reason? That would be absurd, right?

Are you going to answer my previous question. Do you have faith that the claims in the gospels are true or do you know they are true? Remember, if you say you know they are true, you'll have to provide evidence.

We can claim to know something is true, but not be able to provide substantiating evidence to prove it. For instance: I know its true that I went for a walk today because I personally experienced my walk, but I have no other evidence other than my claim to prove this is true to you.

Similarly, I know Jesus is the living word of God because God has revealed Him to me through His word in a very personal experiential way that I can't prove to you, but I still know it's true because I personally experienced it and I now rely on Him to get me through life.
 
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