Faith

[KWCrazy]

When I was younger I had a sales trainer who was very interested in the psychological aspects of selling. He identified certain characteristics in people and suggested strategies on how to deal with them. For example, you wouldn't use the same approach with an extrovert that you would use with an introvert. One discussion we had which I think was spot on was the discussion of four levels of human communication; closed minded, open minded, confidence in faith. Close minded means the don't believe you and don't trust you. Open minded means that they will at least hear you out, but you have to convince them. Confidence means that they trust you and have no reason to doubt what you say. Faith means that if you say it it MUST be true.

In relation to the Scriptures, God doesn't tell us to have confidence in Him; we must have faith. Faith is the belief in something which has not or cannot be proven. In Hebrews 11 we read, "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a good report. Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear." In Matthew 17:20 Jesus tells His disciples, "for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you."

When we read things in the Bible that seem to be impossible according to the laws of nature, do we give praise to the father who has dominion over those laws, or do we through our own lack of faith attempt to compromise what is written with the teaching of the ungodly? Are we willing to stand up and proclaim that the Bible is true because God said it, or are we just open minded enough to accept the things God tells us that don't conflict with our polluted world view?

The atheist is closed minded toward the Scriptures and hostile toward the truth. The agnostic is open minded but believes nothing that isn't proven to him. The weak believer has confidence in the word of God, but will still reject anything that doesn't seem possible in his mind. The faithful believes that it is true because God said it. Where do you stand? Do you acknowledge the veracity of the Scriptures, or do you stand with the atheists and agnostics who loudly proclaim that God's explanation of the creation is all myth and allegory; that the Great Flood never happened; and that evolution, not creation by God, resulted in the appearance of man on this planet.

 

[Papias]

.....so because we come to the scripture from a position of faith, we know that trees clap their hands as in Isaiah 55, and that the Jews were flown out of Egypt on the backs of giant eagles as described in Exodus? So where do you stand? Do you support the veracity of scripture?

Papias

 

[ChetSinger]

In relation to the Scriptures, God doesn't tell us to have confidence in Him; we must have faith. Faith is the belief in something which has not or cannot be proven. In Hebrews 11 we read, "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a good report. Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear." In Matthew 17:20 Jesus tells His disciples, "for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you."

When we read things in the Bible that seem to be impossible according to the laws of nature, do we give praise to the father who has dominion over those laws, or do we through our own lack of faith attempt to compromise what is written with the teaching of the ungodly? Are we willing to stand up and proclaim that the Bible is true because God said it, or are we just open minded enough to accept the things God tells us that don't conflict with our polluted world view?

Amen to that. The NT is filled with miracles that fly in the faith of what is naturally possible.

I'm reading Mark right now, and in chapter 5 Jesus casts out demons from an oppressed man and gives them permission to enter a herd of pigs.

Immediately after that a woman, possibly a hemophiliac, is healed by nothing more than a touch to Jesus' garment.

Finally, Jesus raises up a dead girl.

There they are, three supernatural events in a single chapter.

And we all believe each of those events took place.

So I am regularly puzzled by our brethren who readily believe those three events happened, each one flying in the face of medical science, yet cannot reconcile themselves to the Biblical history that has been understood and accepted by the church for 2,000 years.

 

[KWCrazy]

Blah, blah, blah Isaiah 55

For ye shall go out with joy - This language is that which is properly applicable to the exiles in Babylon, but there can be no doubt that the prophet looks also to the future happier times of the Messiah (compare the notes at Isaiah 52:7).

The mountains and the hills - Language like this is common in Isaiah, where all nature is called on to rejoice, or where inanimate objects are represented as expressing their sympathy with the joy of the people of God (see the note at Isaiah 14:8; Isaiah 35:1-2, Isaiah 35:10; Isaiah 42:10-11; Isaiah 44:23). Indeed, this imagery is common in all poetry.
source

blah, blah, blah backs of giant eagles

On eagles' wings - Both in the law Deuteronomy 32:11 and in the Gospel Matthew 23:37, the Church is compared to fledgelings which the mother cherishes and protects under her wings: but in the law that mother is an eagle, in the Gospels "a hen"; thus shadowing forth the diversity of administration under each covenant: the one of power, which God manifested when He brought His people out of Egypt with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm, and led them into the promised land; the other of grace, when Christ came in humility and took the form of a servant and became obedient unto death, even the death of the Cross.
source

In both instances, the author uses a metaphor to illustrate the true meaning. In other instances in the Bible, Christ sometimes uses parables to illustrate his point. In these casesthey are clearly not literal. When a person accepts Christ as their personal savior, they receive the gift of the Holy Spirit who acts as an interpretor so that they may comprehend the message of the Scripture. Unfortunately, many who claim to be followers of Christ never receive this gift. To them, the Bible is a confusing mix of poetry, allegory and miracles. They can never discern the truth because their eyes look only toward the rocks and not upward at God.

 

[KWCrazy]

So I am regularly puzzled by our brethren who readily believe those three events happened, each one flying in the face of medical science, yet cannot reconcile themselves to the Biblical history that has been understood and accepted by the church for 2,000 years.

There are, I believe, 333 miracles listed in the Bible. When pressed on the matter, evolution believers can never seem to point to a single miracle they actually believe in. I've asked dozens of times, and nobody yet has ever admitted to believing in any of the miracles despite calling themselves Christians.

 

[Papias]

KW wrote:

In both instances, the author uses a metaphor to illustrate the true meaning. In other instances in the Bible, Christ sometimes uses parables to illustrate his point. In these casesthey are clearly not literal.

Right, of course. The point is that all of us Christians have the sense to see that some verses are not to be taken literally. We all approach the scriptures with full trust in God, and great care to understand what they are actually saying. The fact that we differ in our interpretations, with all of us seeing some verses as metaphor, is agreed upon by all of us.

That means, of course, that your OP is simply a case of special pleading, where you state that your own actions are OK in one case, but when another Christian does the same thing in another case, you turn and accuse them of not approaching the scriptures out of faith.

I'm not arguing that a literal interpretation of Genesis is necessarily wrong. I'm arguing that by your own admission in post #5, the argument of your OP is invalid.

When a person accepts Christ as their personal savior, they receive the gift of the Holy Spirit who acts as an interpretor so that they may comprehend the message of the Scripture. Unfortunately, many who claim to be followers of Christ never receive this gift. To them, the Bible is a confusing mix of poetry, allegory and miracles. They can never discern the truth because their eyes look only toward the rocks and not upward at God.

In other words, you claim that your interpretation is right, and mine is wrong, because you have the Holy Spirit guiding you, and I do not. Does that sound just a little arrogant to you?

When pressed on the matter, evolution believers can never seem to point to a single miracle they actually believe in.

Among others, I believe the Resurrection is a miracle. Want more?

I've asked dozens of times, and nobody yet has ever admitted to believing in any of the miracles

Really? You must travel in pretty small circles. Of those Christians I know who don't deny evolution, the vast majory believe that some miracles actually happened.

despite calling themselves Christians.

So you don't think they are actually Christians? Are you saying that some of those who call themselves Christian here are not?

Papias

 

[KWCrazy]

That means, of course, that your OP is simply a case of special pleading, where you state that your own actions are OK in one case, but when another Christian does the same thing in another case, you turn and accuse them of not approaching the scriptures out of faith.

Not at all. If you have a scriptural basis for your beliefs, I have no problems with you seeing things differently. When people subjugate the Scriptures to the teachings of man I call foul. A true understanding of the the Scriptures requires consideration of the totality of the the Scriptures; not just the parts with which you agree.

I'm not arguing that a literal interpretation of Genesis is necessarily wrong. I'm arguing that by your own admission in post #5, the argument of your OP is invalid.

If you are a person with not faith and want to discuss things in a purely scientific manner, that's one position. If you claim to be a Biblical expert and you say things that are easily contradicted by Scriptures, you'd better be ready to support your contention.

In other words, you claim that your interpretation is right, and mine is wrong, because you have the Holy Spirit guiding you, and I do not. Does that sound just a little arrogant to you?

If you don't believe that God is a true entity and you simply cannot comprehend the Scriptures, then it's pretty obvious you don't have the gift of discernment that comes from the Holy Spirit. If you spend all of your time attacking Christianity and tryng to debunk the Scriptures, it's pretty obvious that you aren't serving the same master. That's a general observation, not personal.

Among others, I believe the Resurrection is a miracle. Want more?

Sure. What miracles do you NOT believe. What very clear statements in the Scripture to you refute?

Of those Christians I know who don't deny evolution, the vast majory believe that some miracles actually happened.

Some but not all? They believe in a God who CAN do miracles but would prefer to lie about them? Why would God demonstrate His mastery of the universe and yet somehow not be able to create man as He said He did?

So you don't think they are actually Christians? Are you saying that some of those who call themselves Christian here are not?

I don't know if they are Christians who are truly misled by the repeated lies of evolution, if they are weak Christians who never independently studied the word and who rely of the teachings of others, if they are Christians in name only or if they are merely posing as Christians to attack the faith from inside. All I see are their actions, not their hearts. When they deliberately lie about what is written and make up things that are not Scriptural, that alone is reason enough to be suspect. A false teacher is a greater threat to the believer than an atheist.

 

[miamited]

Hi kw,

Just stopped in to encourage you. You are right. God's righteous ones shall live by faith!

By faith I believe that when God's word tells me He created all this realm in 6 days, I believe it. Doesn't really matter to me what science can 'prove' because once we begin to base what we believe on what we can 'prove', well, then we are no longer living by faith. It's a tough fight and sadly some of the greatest to oppose living the life that God asks of His children are those who also claim to be His children.

Here's what Jesus said about many 'christians':
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[jilfe]

Quoted"
In both instances, the author uses a metaphor to illustrate the true meaning. In other instances in the Bible, Christ sometimes uses parables to illustrate his point. In these casesthey are clearly not literal. When a person accepts Christ as their personal savior, they receive the gift of the Holy Spirit who acts as an interpretor so that they may comprehend the message of the Scripture. Unfortunately, many who claim to be followers of Christ never receive this gift. To them, the Bible is a confusing mix of poetry, allegory and miracles. They can never discern the truth because their eyes look only toward the rocks and not upward at God.
unquoted"

Wow,,,

Praise God for your faithfulness,
and your leading of the Holy Spirit
to answer that post with only the wisdom, of our Lord.

There is no way to answer such a tested question, just as the pharissees did to Jesus, but you answered with such authority, just as jesus did.

That is why it is so important to have the Holy Spirit, show us the truths in matters as this.

I couldn't imagine how a question posed in that manner could have been answered, wow,,, praise God for His Holy Spirit.

Thankyou for bringing this post, to light.

 

[jilfe]

Not at all. If you have a scriptural basis for your beliefs, I have no problems with you seeing things differently. When people subjugate the Scriptures to the teachings of man I call foul. A true understanding of the the Scriptures requires consideration of the totality of the the Scriptures; not just the parts with which you agree.

If you are a person with not faith and want to discuss things in a purely scientific manner, that's one position. If you claim to be a Biblical expert and you say things that are easily contradicted by Scriptures, you'd better be ready to support your contention.

If you don't believe that God is a true entity and you simply cannot comprehend the Scriptures, then it's pretty obvious you don't have the gift of discernment that comes from the Holy Spirit. If you spend all of your time attacking Christianity and tryng to debunk the Scriptures, it's pretty obvious that you aren't serving the same master. That's a general observation, not personal.

Sure. What miracles do you NOT believe. What very clear statements in the Scripture to you refute?

Some but not all? They believe in a God who CAN do miracles but would prefer to lie about them? Why would God demonstrate His mastery of the universe and yet somehow not be able to create man as He said He did?

I don't know if they are Christians who are truly misled by the repeated lies of evolution, if they are weak Christians who never independently studied the word and who rely of the teachings of others, if they are Christians in name only or if they are merely posing as Christians to attack the faith from inside. All I see are their actions, not their hearts. When they deliberately lie about what is written and make up things that are not Scriptural, that alone is reason enough to be suspect. A false teacher is a greater threat to the believer than an atheist.

I just finished reading your other entries too.

Wow, praise God, the authority given to you to be able to answer with such Holy Spirit guidance and conviction, reading your posts keeps on bringing to memory where read in the Bible, about, how the pharissees kept on trying to trap Jesus in His Words, yet Jesus spoke with such authority, the scripture says.

Your posts are demonstating that.
Thankyou, for your faithfulness.

 

[KWCrazy]

I just finished reading your other entries too.

Wow, praise God, the authority given to you to be able to answer with such Holy Spirit guidance and conviction, reading your posts keeps on bringing to memory where read in the Bible, about, how the pharissees kept on trying to trap Jesus in His Words, yet Jesus spoke with such authority, the scripture says.

Your posts are demonstating that.
Thankyou, for your faithfulness.

Thank you for that. My one concern in answering the badgering questions from non-believers or those who refuse to believe the entirety of the Bible is that my answers should be rooted in the Scriptures. Humans make mistakes. God does not. To know God is to know the truth. You can't deny the truth of God without denying God.

 

[ChetSinger]

There are, I believe, 333 miracles listed in the Bible. When pressed on the matter, evolution believers can never seem to point to a single miracle they actually believe in. I've asked dozens of times, and nobody yet has ever admitted to believing in any of the miracles despite calling themselves Christians.

I've met believers who believe the entire NT, but appear to believe little in the OT unless it's also corroborated by secular sources.

Which strikes me as a little incoherent, because the NT is just as supernatural as the OT. I mean, if you believe that someone can rise from the dead, feed thousands with a few loaves and fish, heal every disease with a touch, walk on water, and calm a storm by shouting at it, what's so difficult about believing in a global Flood? Or an Exodus? Or that humanity began 6,000 years ago?

I consider them brethren because they believe in the resurrection of Christ. But I think they're missing out on the beauty of the actual history of the OT. And I think they're in for a surprise (albeit a pleasant one) when they see and perhaps meet people like Abel and Enoch in the resurrection.

 

[SkyWriting]

So I am regularly puzzled by our brethren who readily believe those three events happened, each one flying in the face of medical science, yet cannot reconcile themselves to the Biblical history that has been understood and accepted by the church for 2,000 years.

I have no idea what "has been understood" nor do I care to.
My Church is lost, and I have no interest in what they believe.