"Faith without works is dead." Explain this, please.

[fhansen]

Would you please explain this? Here are my questions and points to explain why I ask this of you:

As I understand you, you seem to say:

• faith engenders love - so faith > love
• love motivates obedience - so love > obedience - so faith > love > obedience
• love fulfills law

The way I read the Word:

• faith and obedience are used interchangeably in the Word (Romans 10:16; Hebrews 3:18-19; 1 John 3:23). From these and other verses, I would thus express this as faith/obedience, which would change what you seem to say.
• "love fulfills law" is, for me, a bit of an ambiguous phrase unless we explain what is meant by "fulfills"
  • In Romans 13:10 "love is the fulfillment of law" - "is the" is inserted in translation and not in the original. It literally & emphatically says "the love / fulfillment of law." Thus, I see love essentially being defined as fulfilling/completing/doing God's Law. This is at minimum confirmed by John saying in 1 John 5:3 "this is the love of/for God: that we keep His commandments, and His commandments are not heavy to bear/burdensome.
  • So, love is obeying God - love is obedience to God - obedience to God is love - love/obedience

If we take all of this and other important terminology, obedience to God is really at the core of it all. But it's faith/obedience/love at the end of it all.

For these reasons, "love motivates obedience" usually causes me to pause a bit. In part because I hear so many say they love God when they are living lawlessly. And there is a lot of antinomian teaching out there that is encouraging this thinking & disassociating the two.

Faith isn't the only virtue we're to be obedient in, rather faith is the beginning, the foundation of it all; its the first step, the first and most basic righteous or just act for man, placing him back into God's graces, back into the relationship with Him that we were made for, that constitutes a just state of being for man. But, as the church has taught, without hope and love we're still not where God would have us be; our justice would be incomplete. And faith doesn't guarantee the others. So...

"Without love faith may indeed exist, but avails nothing." Augustine
"...if I have a faith that can move mountains but have not love, I am nothing." 1 Cor 13:2
"And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love." 1 Cor 13:13

While faith and hope will ultimately dissapear from the scene, having served their purposes, love will remain eternally. It's the bond between ourselves, God, and the rest of creation; it guarantees goodness and rightouesness; it defines justice. When it's said that love fulfulls the law it means to say that love cannot harm, it cannot do wrong, it will literally fulfill the law- the right way for the right reason now. And while I can claim anything about myself, that I believe, that I hope, that I love, they can all be lies, hypocrisy. And I can fake the moral law, I can refrain from sin while still being sinful inside, but I cannot fake the greatest commandments; to the extent that I really do love, I fulfill them. The "righteousness of God" that we're to have and grow in, is based on His love, as are the commandsmands themselves. They simply give us an idea what love "looks like" while not giving us the power to acheive it; only God can do that, union with Him. That's what it means for Him to put His law in our minds and write in on our hearts. I'll leave it with this related quote from a 4th century believer, Basil of Caesarea:

"If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, . . . we resemble mercenaries. Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands . . . we are in the position of children."

To the extent that we remain in God, that we pick up our cross and follow Him daily, He'll work this out in us. But it's a journey, that we particapte in. Faith, hope, and love are all at one and the same time gifts- and human choices-that we can and are meant to grow in.

Love is the opposite of antinomianism; it recognizes and oppose evil and lawlessness, and embraces and fulfills justice and righteosuness. It is righteousness-as the very nature of He who is goodness and righteousness itself.

 

[DaveM]

“For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.” - James 2:26

Literally, this means you do not have faith unless you act on it.

But Jesus said nobody can go to heaven by working.

"I am the Way and the Truth and the Light. Nobody comes to the Father except through Me." - John 14:6

So what is the big deal about works?

Faith comes with proof and evidence that it is real faith and not just words coming from you mouth. Works is your proof and evidence with in yourself that you have real faith.

This is my understanding

 

[GDL]

Faith isn't the only virtue we're to be obedient in, rather faith is the beginning, the foundation of it all; its the first step, the first and most basic righteous or just act for man, placing him back into God's graces, back into the relationship with Him that we were made for, that constitutes a just state of being for man. But, as the church has taught, without hope and love we're still not where God would have us be; our justice would be incomplete. And faith doesn't guarantee the others. So...

"Without love faith may indeed exist, but avails nothing." Augustine
"...if I have a faith that can move mountains but have not love, I am nothing." 1 Cor 13:2
"And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love." 1 Cor 13:13

While faith and hope will ultimately dissapear from the scene, having served their purposes, love will remain eternally. It's the bond between ourselves, God, and the rest of creation; it guarantees goodness and rightouesness; it defines justice. When it's said that love fulfulls the law it means to say that love cannot harm, it cannot do wrong, it will literally fulfill the law- the right way for the right reason now. And while I can claim anything about myself, that I believe, that I hope, that I love, they can all be lies, hypocrisy. And I can fake the moral law, I can refrain from sin while still being sinful inside, but I cannot fake the greatest commandments; to the extent that I really do love, I fulfill them. The "righteousness of God" that we're to have and grow in, is based on His love, as are the commandsmands themselves. They simply give us an idea what love "looks like" while not giving us the power to acheive it; only God can do that, union with Him. That's what it means for Him to put His law in our minds and write in on our hearts. I'll leave it with this related quote from a 4th century believer, Basil of Caesarea:

"If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, . . . we resemble mercenaries. Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands . . . we are in the position of children."

To the extent that we remain in God, that we pick up our cross and follow Him daily, He'll work this out in us. But it's a journey, that we particapte in. Faith, hope, and love are all at one and the same time gifts- and human choices-that we can and are meant to grow in.

Love is the opposite of antinomianism; it recognizes and oppose evil and lawlessness, and embraces and fulfills justice and righteosuness. It is righteousness-as the very nature of He who is goodness and righteousness itself.

From past experience, I was pretty certain you could & hopefully would elaborate. Thanks for this.

From first read, the only thing that made me pause was Basil of Caesarea's quote, which I may have commented to you on in the past.

• The way I read the Word, the "fear of God" is not something to downplay in any way. At some point along our being developed, which you cover in a few ways, "there is no fear in love." I read that. But I think it best that we along this way do retain a healthy fear of punishment, as children of a perfect Father who does use the rod of discipline as He perfectly determines. Romans 6:16 speaks of being slaves of obedience. Christ speaks of no longer calling us servants at some point, but friends in John 15:14-15 and He ties this to our having learned from Him and obeying Him (so back to the love/obedience concept again).
• I also do not have a problem with the concept of obeying Him for the rewards and blessings He tells us will come to us. I thus don't consider myself a mercenary for considering His promised incentives. So, in fear we have a negative incentive and in rewards and wages we have a positive incentive. I reject neither.
• I'm OK with his last statement, but I still see the strict correlation of love being obedience to Him & obedience to Him being love. I also experientially know that loving Him is certainly a part of desiring to please Him by doing His will as He takes me more and more to living righteously, godly.
• At some point all these words just tie and blend together as I indicated before in the wording: faith/obedience/love, which I also see as becoming truly faithful as is said of His First-Born Son, our father Abraham (Romans 4), etc...

Thanks again.

 

[fhansen]

The way I read the Word, the "fear of God" is not something to downplay in any way. At some point along our being developed, which you cover in a few ways, "there is no fear in love." I read that. But I think it best that we along this way do retain a healthy fear of punishment, as children of a perfect Father who does use the rod of discipline as He perfectly determines. Romans 6:16 speaks of being slaves of obedience. Christ speaks of no longer calling us servants at some point, but friends in John 15:14-15 and He ties this to our having learned from Him and obeying Him (so back to the love/obedience concept again).

I agree, although I think Basil was speaking of the progression: of how, as we come to know God better, and therefore love Him more, we have less reason to fear punishment because we're growing in righteousness anyway-and because we know His own love better than ever. The awe will certainly remain-and increase- but the fear would decrease. Full-on love is the ultimate goal in any case.

I think that, as we're "perfected in love", being transformed into His image, which is a process, that we need rely less and less on conscious obedience to law, less and less on fear, because we now obey out of sheer willing desire-for the true good. And desire for compensation sounds much like earning our way to heaven. In the meanwhile, however, until the perfet comes, probably not fully until we meet "face to face" in the next life, fear and the law continue to play their roles. JMO.

 

[GDL]

I think that, as we're "perfected in love", being transformed into His image, which is a process, that we need rely less and less on conscious obedience to law, less and less on fear, because we now obey out of sheer willing desire-for the true good.

Agree. I think this is also expressed in His commandments not being burdensome [to obey]. Our new nature with His laws written on our hearts makes doing His will more and more a normal part of who we are in Christ.

And desire for compensation sounds much like earning our way to heaven.

Nevertheless, He discusses it as a part of what is taking and will take place. Again, at the earlier phases of growth this can be a focus. As time advances and we with it, the adage grows of I'd just do that for free...

 

[Doug Brents]

“For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.” - James 2:26

Literally, this means you do not have faith unless you act on it.

But Jesus said nobody can go to heaven by working.

"I am the Way and the Truth and the Light. Nobody comes to the Father except through Me." - John 14:6

So what is the big deal about works?

Think about it like this:
A man is walking a tightrope across the Grand Canyon pushing a wheelbarrow. You are standing on one side of the Canyon watching him go back and forth. After several trips, he comes near to where you are standing and says, "Which of you believe I could walk across this Canyon pushing this wheelbarrow again?" You raise your hand. He then says, "Ok, which of you is willing to get in the wheelbarrow while I push you across?"

Many of those listening will "Believe" that he could do this. They have seen him push it across (empty) several times. But faith demands action. Faith demands that you put your belief into action and get into the wheelbarrow. Until you are in the wheelbarrow, you do not have "Faith"; you have mental assent, but not faith.

This can be seen throughout Scripture. Look at everyone listed in Hebrews 11. They were told to do something, and they did it, and the doing of it was credited to them as righteousness. Yes, God knows the heart of a man, and knows before they do it that they will do it. But He demands action before His blessing is poured out. Did God know that Abram would sacrifice Isaac before he got to the mount? Yes! But God waited until he had the knife raised, ready to strike, before He stopped him and confirmed the covenant with him. The same goes for EVERY other person in Scripture.

 

[GDL]

Think about it like this:
A man is walking a tightrope across the Grand Canyon pushing a wheelbarrow. You are standing on one side of the Canyon watching him go back and forth. After several trips, he comes near to where you are standing and says, "Which of you believe I could walk across this Canyon pushing this wheelbarrow again?" You raise your hand. He then says, "Ok, which of you is willing to get in the wheelbarrow while I push you across?"

Many of those listening will "Believe" that he could do this. They have seen him push it across (empty) several times. But faith demands action. Faith demands that you put your belief into action and get into the wheelbarrow. Until you are in the wheelbarrow, you do not have "Faith"; you have mental assent, but not faith.

Understand the illustration and the point about faith, but it would take God commanding me to get in the wheelbarrow! I'm pretty sure we're warned not to put our faith in man.

 

[BibleBeliever1611]

Literally, this means you do not have faith unless you act on it.

So where exactly did it say that you don't have faith? Car without a battery is dead, but if you have a car without a battery, you still have a car.

 

[Doug Brents]

Understand the illustration and the point about faith, but it would take God commanding me to get in the wheelbarrow! I'm pretty sure we're warned not to put our faith in man.

God commanded that you have faith.
Then He defined the faith you must exhibit when He said Repent, Confess (Jesus' Name), and be Baptized. These are all elements of faith that He said lead to salvation. Other elements of faith follow our reception of salvation, but these precede it.

 

[GDL]

God commanded that you have faith.
Then He defined the faith you must exhibit when He said Repent, Confess (Jesus' Name), and be Baptized. These are all elements of faith that He said lead to salvation. Other elements of faith follow our reception of salvation, but these precede it.

He also commanded that we believe in His Son (1 John 3:23) - so when we believe in Jesus Christ, we also obey God.

 

[Doug Brents]

He also commanded that we believe in His Son (1 John 3:23) - so when we believe in Jesus Christ, we also obey God.

That word for belief (pistis in the Greek) is the same word for "faith". Belief in your heart (Rom 10:9-10) is only part of what is commanded by God to receive salvation. Yes, we have to believe that Jesus is God come in the flesh. Yes, we have to believe that He died to pay the price for our sin, and was raised the third day to show His power over death. Now, what are we going to do with that belief. Yes, DO! There is nothing in Scripture that says that man can receive salvation without some kind of action on his part. Jesus paid the price, but to have that price accounted to us we must obey Christ (Heb 5:9)(and just believing in our heart is not obeying Him).

 

[GDL]

That word for belief (pistis in the Greek) is the same word for "faith". Belief in your heart (Rom 10:9-10) is only part of what is commanded by God to receive salvation. Yes, we have to believe that Jesus is God come in the flesh. Yes, we have to believe that He died to pay the price for our sin, and was raised the third day to show His power over death. Now, what are we going to do with that belief. Yes, DO! There is nothing in Scripture that says that man can receive salvation without some kind of action on his part. Jesus paid the price, but to have that price accounted to us we must obey Christ (Heb 5:9)(and just believing in our heart is not obeying Him).

No argument from me regarding faith & obedience. I don't agree that 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 is "the" gospel, but yes, it's a vitally important part of it.