I can't speak for all of them.I think Calvinism started out with a noble idea of preserving God's sovereignty, but I often wonder if the Calvinist has fully thought through the implications of their beliefs as it relates to the character and attributes of God?
I would certainly agree with the second paragraph - with some nuance of course.This thread actually is about Calvinism in that it is about the what I believe to be the differences between the soteriology and the biblical gospel verses the gospel of Reformed/Calvinistic theology or T.UL.I.P.
I don't see any conflict between the biblical meaning of predestination with faith or salvation, but see a definite conflict between the Calvinistic distorted view of predestination as it relates to faith and salvation and that of the Bible
Like the man said, there is no contradiction between predestination and salvation through faith.
One correction to something you said in your post though. Calvinists believe and teach that salvation is a gift of God available to all men who will but believe.
Salvation is not received by predestination as you say.
While it is certainly true that only those predestined to believe and elected to be the recipients of His grace will believe and be saved through faith - neither predestination nor election saves anyone - only a personal faith.
Then according to Calvinism it is actually only by predestination that one is saved, because if one is not predestined or chosen for salvation to start with, then according to Calvinism "faith" will never occur. So without predestination, which is devoid of faith in Calvinism, salvation is not possible.
How did you read that out of what I said? Faith can only arise through the grace of God. The alternative is a heresy called Pelagianism. Calvinism merely takes that fact to its logical conclusion, whereas Arminianism tries to dodge it.
I can't speak for all of them.
But I have.
The one and only valid reason for being a Calvinist is that the Bible seems to teach it. Any other consideration is extraneous.
The offer of salvation is made to all men. Any Calvinist will tell you that.If Calvinists hold that only those predestined will have faith, and indeed that those predestined must have faith, then the offer of salvation is not truly given to all men with sufficient grace to respond - which contradicts with a number of scriptures [II Cor 5:15, Jn 6:51, I Jn 2:2, Jn 12:32, I Tim 2:5-6, Heb 2:9, Jn 16:8-9, Jn 1:9, I Tim 1:10-11, Jn 6:28-29, Rom 10:17, I Jn 4:9-10, etc].
I totally agree that the doctrine of limited atonement as usually taught by 5-point Calvinists is not biblical and you are right in saying so.But then, if I understand the theory, Calvinists do not hold that Jesus died for all men
Salvation does follow faith as any Calvinist worth his salt will tell you..... or even that salvation follows faith, but rather that Jesus only died for the predestined elect and actually achieved both their faith and salvation at the cross. (This might not be a view held by all Calvinists, though? I know 4-point Calvinists do believe Jesus died for all including the non-elect, at least.)
If you aren't aware of the scriptures used in Reformed Theology, you should familiarize yourself with them. There's plenty of online resources.Please back this up with scripture and not mere assertion, as many scriptures have been offered up in this thread that would seem to contradict it.
I quite likely agree with much of this post even as I disagree with some of it as being, as it were, "straw men".Unfortunately, the Calvinist TULIP teaching seems to diminish the sovereignty of God. If I understand the theory correctly, God can't delegate (or rather, if he does it's a mere illusion as God is still doing every task Himself); God can't set up natural laws and expect them to continue - they are just an illusion for the sake of man (He has to push around every molecule Himself, every dice roll, every wave of the sea etc. because He can't just command them and expect them to obey); and God can't deal with finite variables because any variable would derail His plan (hence He has to choose who will be saved and make sure they get faith through some method.)
Perhaps I am misunderstanding that and not all Calvinists believe such - but from the many debates on the subject I have engaged in, those are common threads. Quite a number seem to hold that God can't deal with any variables (even when they are finite) to the point where He actually ensures that some people will commit moral evil and even directs it Himself.
The picture Scripture paints of God's sovereignty is not so phobic of delegation and variables as they are marks of His wisdom and power:
#1 God, by His sovereign will, gave man the ability to choose whether to obey or disobey. (Deut 30:19, Josh 34:19, etc.) For salvation, man can either respond to the gospel in belief or refuse to believe it. (Mk 16:16)
#2 God, by His sovereign power and decree, set up boundaries/limits in which people can act. Some of these boundaries are physical, such as God creating us with opposable thumbs, but the inability to fly or breath in vacuum. Some are mental, such as granting man the ability to reason higher than the animals, but not giving man the complete and perfect knowledge of God. Some of these boundaries are moral, such as fallen man's inability to be perfectly righteous, but that man can still follow the laws of God written on their hearts (Rom 2:14-15.)
Due to these boundaries, man cannot physically work for salvation or accomplish his own deliverance. He cannot reach salvation via his own mental enlightenment. And man cannot morally achieve salvation via his own righteousness. In all these ways, it is impossible.
However, God in His sovereign mercy, knew that man could not achieve salvation within the limits he had bounded man and so created another way - faith! Rather than man having to be righteous, an impossibility, Christ would come to be righteousness on their behalf, and God would credit that righteousness to the account of any who would believe.
"However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness." Rom 4:5
"For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, not by works, so that no one can boast." Eph 2:8-9
What does it mean that it is by grace we have been saved, through faith, and that this is not of ourselves but is the gift of God?
#3 God, by His character and wisdom, set the standard of righteousness. (Rom 1:17, Psalm 18:30, Eph 2:3, Psalm 119:3, Deut 32:4, Psalm 145:17, Isaiah 5:16, Isaiah 51:6, Dan 9:14, Jer 9:24.) If God hadn't reached out to man with a way to be declared righteous through faith, not works, then salvation would have been impossible for man. Fortunately for us, He did!
#4 God, in His sovereign wisdom and power, set the rules by which deliverance, forgiveness, and pardon are obtained (Num 25:22-29, Jer 26:1-6, II Chron 7:14, John 3:16, Heb 10:11-18, Luke 4:14-21, Heb 9:22, Matt 5:29, Isa 45:22-25) Mercifully, God offers forgiveness and deliverance to those who place their faith in Christ!
#5 God, by His sovereign power and grace, gave us everything necessary to respond to the gospel in faith through the sufficient work of Christ on the cross.
He gave us:
- Christ; God revealed. (Heb 1:3, I Cor 1:4-5, John 4:10, Jn 12:46-32, Jn 8:12)
"There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man." Jn 1:9
Without this revelation of Christ, limited man would have never known the way of salvation.
- The offer of salvation to all people in Christ: (Titus 2:11, John 12:3-33, Matt 4:12-17, Psalm 67:1-3)
Without this gracious offer, none would have the opportunity to be saved.
- Christ delivered to death that we might live: (Rom 4:25, Gal 2:20-21, Rom 5:6-8)
Without Christ's work on the cross, there would be no atonement possible.
- The gospel proclaimed (Col 1:23, Rom 10:17, Gal 3:2-5, Heb 4:2)
Without the good news and testimony of the gospel, we would have nothing to respond to in faith.
- The general conviction of the Spirit (John 16:7-11, I Cor 14:24-25)
Without this conviction of sin, we would not know our need for a Saviour.
- The testimony and light of the church (I Cor 10:33, Matt 5:13-14)
Without this continued grace, most men would never hear of Christ.
****
See also:
How are we to understand the sequence and part that man plays in his salvation? (sequence/part man plays in salvation)
Is God sovereign or do we have a free will? (is God sovereign or do we have free will)
If you aren't aware of the scriptures used in Reformed Theology, you should familiarize yourself with them. There's plenty of online resources.
Wow.
Just as I said.
"Man is rightly held responsible for those choices both good and bad."
However, the passage does not address predestination.
Wow what? So far the only addition you have added to the discussion would seem to be sarcasm or complaints about the wording of the OP. If you disagree with a post, why not present a case for your position? It would certainly be more beneficial than your current approach.
I've just been amazed at the general ineptness generated by this thread. That's all.
At the present moment, however, I am amazed at your accusatory hostility toward someone you don't even know. For a person who professes Christ, that, perhaps, is even more amazing that anything else here.
Good night.
...you have denegrated everyone in this thread by labeling their posts inept...
...while attacking me for daring to call your posts sarcastic!
You have even called my very faith into question!
If you aren't aware of the scriptures used in Reformed Theology, you should familiarize yourself with them. There's plenty of online resources.
I believe one error of Calvinism is equating predestination with salvation, whereas the scriptures do not do so. In the the scriptures the point of predestination is that God has determined beforehand that all believers, whoever places their faith in Christ, are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. No where do the scriptures teach that God determines who will have salvation to eternal life or who will not have that opportunity, but instead go on to eternal damnation.I would certainly agree with the second paragraph - with some nuance of course.
But the thread itself is not about Calvinism vs. faith. It is about predestination vs. faith.
It is true that predestination is often associated with Calvinism in particular. But it really shouldn't be. It should be associated with what the Bible teaches about the omniscience of God as related to His providence.
The latter is a subject which all students of scripture should be conversant in - not just Calvinists.
If you leave a doctrine to be developed by a particular group - you run the risk of just being able to argue against the error in their doctrine whereas you should be able to explain the biblical doctrine for yourself.
This is the situation we find ourselves in with these online intramural debates among amateur theologians.
And no - foreknowledge alone does not explain predestination - no matter how many people just sluff it off to that.
Then don't make a challenge of Reformed Theology as if there's no scripture to back it up. It's disingenuous. Disagreeing with the scripture is not the same as not having any.I am quite familiar with many of the scripture passages referred to in support of the reformed tradition - however I have not found that those verses prove Calvinism, nor that they adequately explain the many scriptures which contradict TULIP.
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