Faith or Predestination

[RisenInJesus]

Yet you never refuted the false dichotomy claim.


Romans 8:27-30 And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. (28) And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. (29) For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. (30) And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Romans 10:9-10 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. (10) For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, (9) not a result of works, so that no one may boast. (10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

The verses you have posted are all wonderful passages and I am in full agreement with God's word, yet they do not support the doctrines of Calvinism.

 

[Hammster]

Okay, and when I heard the gospel and knew it was reality and true, I just believed it.

Exactly. Because faith comes by hearing.

 

[JoeP222w]

The verses you have posted are all wonderful passages and I am in full agreement with God's word, yet they do not support the doctrines of Calvinism.

Have you read Institutes of the Christian Religion by John Calvin?

 

[RisenInJesus]

Exactly. Because faith comes by hearing.

I agree, it can also come from reading. I actually was reading.
But Calvinism teaches that faith cannot exist unless a person is elected and regenerated first, is that correct?

 

[RisenInJesus]

Have you read Institutes of the Christian Religion by John Calvin?

Parts, but not all. I really don't think it is wise to read pages and pages of someone's thoughts on what the scriptures say, rather than the scriptures themselves. John Calvin behaved in some very ungodly ways from my perspective and along with that I don't believe he ever was fully free from his Catholic background and it had a heavy influence on him.

 

[Hammster]

I agree, it can also come from reading. I actually was reading.
But Calvinism teaches that faith cannot exist unless a person is elected and regenerated first, is that correct?

You must be born again to even see the Kingdom of God. If you can see it, you won’t belirve it, and you’ll never enter.

So ask yourself, when you heard the gospel, did you believe it, or did you choose to believe it?

 

[Hammster]

Parts, but not all. I really don't think it is wise to read pages and pages of someone's thoughts on what the scriptures say, rather than the scriptures themselves.

Yet, you keep posting.

 

[Butch5]

Don't speak for you;

However I am the KIND of Body, God called MAN, that God formed FROM the dust of the ground.

And fortunate for My Body God formed without LIFE; God 'imparted" Life into my body.

And the Life God "imparted" into my body, is called a LIVING SOUL.

oooooh rah for me. My body came into living. My body has it's own life. ie BLOOD.

When My body's LIFE stops, ie blood flowing, heart beating.

Well, then that is the end of my body's living.

My Body shall die and RETURN to the dust of the ground.

Gods living soul, (now called by the identity of my body), shall "depart" my dead body.

But that's cool with me, since I believe in God, have submitted to God, Stand with God....so "my departed living soul" shall go back to God, from whence it came, and wait with Him....until Christ Jesus' comes to redeem my rotting body, and change my body.

God Bless,
SBC

Again, that's not what the passage says. God imparted the spirit of life into Adam and "Adam" became a living soul. He wasn't a living soul without the spirit of life. Without the spirit of life there is no soul. The requires the body. Scripture records that the soul is in the blood.

11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. (Lev. 17:11 KJV)

The word "life" in this passage is the Hebrew word "Nephesh" which is translated soul. The soul requires a body.

 

[JoeP222w]

I really don't think it is wise to read pages and pages of someone's thoughts on what the scriptures say, rather than the scriptures themselves.

I never promoted that any man's thoughts were on scripture to be greater than scripture itself, nor does any Calvinist promote such a thought that I have ever heard of, and I doubt that Calvin himself ever saw himself above scripture. Moreover, I have not seen you bring in any scripture into your comments here.

John Calvin behaved in some very ungodly ways from my perspective

You seem to be implying that you never act in an ungodly way. Or that since someone may behave in an ungodly way, there is nothing to learn from them? Is that what you are saying?

along with that I don't believe he ever was fully free from his Catholic background and it had a heavy influence on him.

Not sure how you can say that if, by your own admission, you have not completely read all of his works. Are you never influenced by your past and background? Are you claiming that you knew John Calvin's heart? John Calvin was not an infallible man, and I don't think he claimed that he was.

 

[RisenInJesus]

You must be born again to even see the Kingdom of God. If you can see it, you won’t belirve it, and you’ll never enter.

So ask yourself, when you heard the gospel, did you believe it, or did you choose to believe it?

The fact that one must be born again to see (John 3:3) or enter (John 3:5) the kingdom of God does not negate the fact that people are aware that God and/or His kingdom exist. Neither does this change the fact that the scriptures say that one must express faith to receive eternal life through Christ and enter into His kingdom. According to the scriptures, every man has been enlightened and everyone is without excuse because they know God, but do not glorify Him and God commands all men everywhere to repent.


That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world. John 1:9

For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Romans 1:20-21

And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’ Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man’s devising. Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.” Acts 17:26-31

When I heard the gospel which occurred on more than one occasion in bits and pieces and in various ways I did not immediately understand or believe, but I did not reject either. I feel that the Holy Spirit was at work throughout my life prior to knowing Christ, as He is in each person's life. Finally, at one point I just believed, my eyes were opened and I knew the gospel was true and Jesus was God the Savior. I give all the glory to God for that enlightened understanding, but I don't believe He would have given me that had I continued in a pattern of refusal, rejection and disbelief of His conviction.

 

[RisenInJesus]

Yet, you keep posting.

True, but posting and interacting with others on this forum or thread is a lot different than reading and studying someone's personal volume of commentary about the Christian religion. Notice they are called... Institutes of the Christian Religion. I feel that John Calvin does a great job of making Christianity into another methodical religion just like every other religion of the world, when in reality it is about the Living God and His relationship with those He created. The fact that Calvin was an adherent of Augustine, one of the most prominent "saints" of the Catholic Church is another reason I am very uninspired to be inspired by his institutes.

 

[RisenInJesus]

I never promoted that any man's thoughts were on scripture to be greater than scripture itself, nor does any Calvinist promote such a thought that I have ever heard of, and I doubt that Calvin himself ever saw himself above scripture. Moreover, I have not seen you bring in any scripture into your comments here.

I didn't say you promote man's teachings over scripture. No Calvinists would say that they do, but I have personally know those who do this very thing and almost idolize John Calvin.

I guess you haven't read too many posts here, because I often include scripture in my comments when applicable, which is most of the time.

You seem to be implying that you never act in an ungodly way. Or that since someone may behave in an ungodly way, there is nothing to learn from them? Is that what you are saying?

Not sure how you can say that if, by your own admission, you have not completely read all of his works. Are you never influenced by your past and background? Are you claiming that you knew John Calvin's heart? John Calvin was not an infallible man, and I don't think he claimed that he was.

Of course I act ungodly at times and realize everyone does. Nor am I claiming to know his heart, yet Jesus said we are to look at the fruit of someone's life and whether they bear good or bad fruit (Matthew 7:15-20). John Calvin laid heavy, unbiblical burdens on the people of his theocratic kingdom in Geneva while trying to create his perfect utopia, not to mention his unchristlike treatment of those who disagreed with him.

 

[Hammster]

The fact that one must be born again to see (John 3:3) or enter (John 3:5) the kingdom of God does not negate the fact that people are aware that God and/or His kingdom exist. Neither does this change the fact that the scriptures say that one must express faith to receive eternal life through Christ and enter into His kingdom. According to the scriptures, every man has been enlightened and everyone is without excuse because they know God, but do not glorify Him and God commands all men everywhere to repent.


That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world. John 1:9

For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Romans 1:20-21

And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’ Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man’s devising. Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.” Acts 17:26-31

When I heard the gospel which occurred on more than one occasion in bits and pieces and in various ways I did not immediately understand or believe, but I did not reject either. I feel that the Holy Spirit was at work throughout my life prior to knowing Christ, as He is in each person's life. Finally, at one point I just believed, my eyes were opened and I knew the gospel was true and Jesus was God the Savior. I give all the glory to God for that enlightened understanding, but I don't believe He would have given me that had I continued in a pattern of refusal, rejection and disbelief of His conviction.

So you believed and then your eyes were opened? If they were closed, what exactly did you believe?

And, according to you, Jesus was all wrong about that Kingdom part. Apparently you don’t need to be born again to see it.

 

[SBC]

Again, that's not what the passage says. God imparted the spirit of life into Adam and "Adam" became a living soul. He wasn't a living soul without the spirit of life.

God imparted a living soul into Adam's body.

Scripture records that the soul is in the blood.

What scripture says the soul is in the blood

11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. (Lev. 17:11 KJV)

The word "life" in this passage is the Hebrew word "Nephesh" which is translated soul. The soul requires a body.

God Bless.
SBC

 

[RisenInJesus]

So you believed and then your eyes were opened? If they were closed, what exactly did you believe?

What do you mean? Are you asking what I believed before I placed my faith in Christ and was saved? I believed in God, but didn't know Him and had confused ideas about God. I believed in the Bible as inspired by God, but found it difficult to understand and confusing. I believed Jesus was the Savior, but did not know Him in a real and personal way, nor have a realistic understanding of the depths of my sin or need for a personal Savior.

And, according to you, Jesus was all wrong about that Kingdom part. Apparently you don’t need to be born again to see it.

If you think I think Jesus was all wrong about the kingdom, then you have not comprehended what I wrote. I never said one does not have to be born again to see or enter it. Try re-reading the post and also take into consideration the other things Jesus said with regard to believing in Him and eternal life.

He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”




“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. John 5:24




And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.John 6:35




And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”John 6:40




Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life. John 6:47

 

[Hammster]

What do you mean? Are you asking what I believed before I placed my faith in Christ and was saved? I believed in God, but didn't know Him and had confused ideas about God. I believed in the Bible as inspired by God, but found it difficult to understand and confusing. I believed Jesus was the Savior, but did not know Him in a real and personal way, nor have a realistic understanding of the depths of my sin or need for a personal Savior.

So what happened first, were your eyes opened (whatever you mean by that), or did you believe?

 

[Hammster]

If you think I think Jesus was all wrong about the kingdom, then you have not comprehended what I wrote. I never said one does not have to be born again to see or enter it. Try re-reading the post and also take into consideration the other things Jesus said with regard to believing in Him and eternal life.

Well, you keep using all of this unbiblical terminology, so it’s hard to follow sometimes.

What comes first, seeing the kingdom, or regeneration?

 

[RisenInJesus]

So what happened first, were your eyes opened (whatever you mean by that), or did you believe?

I believed the testimony and the included Bible passages I was reading of this person who had been delivered from being entrenched in spiritual darkness, new age and occult deception and saved by Jesus Christ. I believed that Jesus was a real living personal Savior and I knew then and there that I needed Him to save me...and He did. When I say my eyes were opened, I mean that I understood my need for forgiveness, my need for a Savior, and amazingly to me the scriptures which to that point had been confusing became clear and the overall redemptive plan of God through history to save fallen mankind made sense in a very real way.

 

[RisenInJesus]

Well, you keep using all of this unbiblical terminology, so it’s hard to follow sometimes.

What unbiblical terminology?

What comes first, seeing the kingdom, or regeneration?

I believe the scriptures indicate one believes under the conviction of the Holy Spirit first, then regeneration and seeing the kingdom/entering eternal life happen simultaneously.

 

[Hammster]

I believed the testimony and the included Bible passages I was reading of this person who had been delivered from being entrenched in spiritual darkness, new age and occult deception and saved by Jesus Christ. I believed that Jesus was a real living personal Savior and I knew then and there that I needed Him to save me...and He did. When I say my eyes were opened, I mean that I understood my need for forgiveness, my need for a Savior, and amazingly to me the scriptures which to that point had been confusing became clear and the overall redemptive plan of God through history to save fallen mankind made sense in a very real way.

So this was real to you.

The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. - 1 Corinthians 2:14