Faith in the living, resurrected Word (while the scriptures are only 50% historically accurate).

[Mountainmanbob]

Maybe you have it backwards. Maybe God loves us more than we love ourselves.
Maybe God sees the value when we don't. Just maybe...

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

What's that all people mean?
All people?
Or all people that are His?
Bible states there are two father's.
M-Bob

John 8:24
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

 

[Saint Steven]

What's that all people mean?
All people?
Or all people that are His?

All people are His.
No one in humankind are NOT His.

There are two comparisons here. All people means all people.

In verse 18
- one trespass = condemnation for all people
- one righteous act = life for all people
Again... in verse 19
- the disobedience of the one = many were made sinners (many = all)
- the obedience of the one man = many will be made righteous (many = all)

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

 

[Mountainmanbob]

All people are His.
No one in humankind are NOT His.

There are two comparisons here. All people means all people.

In verse 18
- one trespass = condemnation for all people
- one righteous act = life for all people
Again... in verse 19
- the disobedience of the one = many were made sinners (many = all)
- the obedience of the one man = many will be made righteous (many = all)

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

In the King James Version of the Bible the text reads: Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall. enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth.

Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia › wiki
Matthew 7:21 - Wikipedia

 

[Der Alte]

...

<SS>All people are His.
No one in humankind are NOT His.
There are two comparisons here. All people means all people.
In verse 18
- one trespass = condemnation for all people
- one righteous act = life for all people
Again... in verse 19
- the disobedience of the one = many were made sinners (many = all)
- the obedience of the one man = many will be made righteous (many = all)
Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.<SS>

...

Do you suppose that when Paul wrote the epistle to the Romans that he forgot what he had written to Corinth, Galatia and Ephesus or vice versa?

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
(9) Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men
(10) nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21
(19) The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery;
(20) idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions
(21) and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesians 5:5
(5) For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a person is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
1 Corinthians 3:17
(17) If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy that person; for God's temple is sacred, and you together are that temple.​

 

[Saint Steven]

In the King James Version of the Bible the text reads: Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall. enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth.
View attachment 269419
Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia › wiki
Matthew 7:21 - Wikipedia

I hope we aren't getting too far off topic here.

Bible versus bible? That doesn't work.
How do you harmonize these scriptures? (yours and mine) Where is the common ground?
Your scripture seems to infer salvation by works. ("...but he that doeth...") Do you believe in that?

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

 

[Saint Steven]

When I read the Bible
or hear preaching straight from the Bible
the Holy Spirit tells me that it is true.

I just realized that what was said here doesn't seem to make sense.

If you were reading the Bible, or listening to preaching straight from the Bible,
why would you need the Holy Spirit to tell you that it is true?

Do you need discernment to know if the Bible is true?
If so, has that discernment ever told you that the Bible isn't true?
If your discernment has never told you that something isn't true, it's probably not working.

Here's a test for your discernment.
Which of the two scripture passages below is true?

These accounts of Jesus cursing the fig tree do not match.
One account says the tree withered immediately, the other account says they found it withered the next day. They can't both be true, right?

Matthew 21:18-20 NIV
Early in the morning, as Jesus was on his way back to the city, he was hungry. 19 Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, “May you never bear fruit again!” Immediately the tree withered.
20 When the disciples saw this, they were amazed. “How did the fig tree wither so quickly?” they asked.

Mark 11:12-14, 20-21 NIV
The next day as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry. 13 Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs. 14 Then he said to the tree, “May no one ever eat fruit from you again.” And his disciples heard him say it. ...
20 In the morning, as they went along, they saw the fig tree withered from the roots. 21 Peter remembered and said to Jesus, “Rabbi, look! The fig tree you cursed has withered!”

 

[Mountainmanbob]

Here's a test for your discernment.
Which of the two scripture passages below is true?



These accounts of Jesus cursing the fig tree do not match.
One account says the tree withered immediately, the other account says they found it withered the next day. They can't both be true, right?

Matthew 21:18-20 NIV
Early in the morning, as Jesus was on his way back to the city, he was hungry. 19 Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, “May you never bear fruit again!” Immediately the tree withered.
20 When the disciples saw this, they were amazed. “How did the fig tree wither so quickly?” they asked.

Mark 11:12-14, 20-21 NIV
The next day as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry. 13 Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs. 14 Then he said to the tree, “May no one ever eat fruit from you again.” And his disciples heard him say it. ...
20 In the morning, as they went along, they saw the fig tree withered from the roots. 21 Peter remembered and said to Jesus, “Rabbi, look! The fig tree you cursed has withered!”

I read no further because,
I need no test from you.
M

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I just realized that what was said here doesn't seem to make sense.

If you were reading the Bible, or listening to preaching straight from the Bible,
why would you need the Holy Spirit to tell you that it is true?

Do you need discernment to know if the Bible is true?
If so, has that discernment ever told you that the Bible isn't true?
If your discernment has never told you that something isn't true, it's probably not working.

Here's a test for your discernment.
Which of the two scripture passages below is true?

These accounts of Jesus cursing the fig tree do not match.
One account says the tree withered immediately, the other account says they found it withered the next day. They can't both be true, right?

Matthew 21:18-20 NIV
Early in the morning, as Jesus was on his way back to the city, he was hungry. 19 Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, “May you never bear fruit again!” Immediately the tree withered.
20 When the disciples saw this, they were amazed. “How did the fig tree wither so quickly?” they asked.

Mark 11:12-14, 20-21 NIV
The next day as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry. 13 Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs. 14 Then he said to the tree, “May no one ever eat fruit from you again.” And his disciples heard him say it. ...
20 In the morning, as they went along, they saw the fig tree withered from the roots. 21 Peter remembered and said to Jesus, “Rabbi, look! The fig tree you cursed has withered!”

That's it, there's many examples of these kind of inconsistencies. You might have also run into unbelievers in YT comments sections taunting literalist Christians with their prefab lists (like so many kids ruffling Elisha's feathers). The doctrine of literal inerrancy opens up a whole raft of numerical and temporal inconsistencies (Just how many times did the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crow for Peter anyways).

But I'd go with a claim the Bible is 'spiritually inerrant', on condition that it is read 'through Christ'. This essentially means that every story, event, law, proverb, teaching, prophecy, promise, verse, phrase and word in some way reveals or feeds God's salvific/ redemptive purpose. Yes, even Elisha who wouldn't 'bear' the kids' taunts.

 

[Saint Steven]

Yes, even Elisha who wouldn't 'bear' the kids' taunts.

LOL --- good one.

Proverbs 18:21
The tongue has the power of life and death, and those who love it will eat its fruit.

 

[Saint Steven]

But I'd go with a claim the Bible is 'spiritually inerrant', on condition that it is read 'through Christ'. This essentially means that every story, event, law, proverb, teaching, prophecy, promise, verse, phrase and word in some way reveals or feeds God's salvific/ redemptive purpose. Yes, even Elisha who wouldn't 'bear' the kids' taunts.

I like what you are saying here. And it brought this to mind.

It's the human aspect.
The texts reflect humanity as much as they reflect divinity. Jars of clay. (verse below)
Human perceptual reality of an event will differ even though they were all in the same place at the same time. It's the human aspect.

It seems unreasonable that we would saddle the text with so much "inspiration" that we miss the human element. And perhaps we misunderstand inspiration. Do we not see numerous examples of obviously conflicting spiritual insights? (Proverbs 26:4-5)

And beyond all this is the personal experience with the scriptures. A single word may stand out that is meaningful to you personally but has little to do with the text.

2 Corinthians 4:7
But we have this treasure in jars of clay to show that this all-surpassing power is from God and not from us.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I like what you are saying here. And it brought this to mind.

It's the human aspect.
The texts reflect humanity as much as they reflect divinity. Jars of clay. (verse below)
Human perceptual reality of an event will differ even though they were all in the same place at the same time. It's the human aspect.

It seems unreasonable that we would saddle the text with so much "inspiration" that we miss the human element. And perhaps we misunderstand inspiration. Do we not see numerous examples of obviously conflicting spiritual insights? (Proverbs 26:4-5)

And beyond all this is the personal experience with the scriptures. A single word may stand out that is meaningful to you personally but has little to do with the text.

2 Corinthians 4:7
But we have this treasure in jars of clay to show that this all-surpassing power is from God and not from us.

I'd say that's the spirit that moves us when we read the word. Sure, he speaks to ppl differently and at different times, but enlivens a sense of the treasure in the clay, which is deep calling out to deep, the connection to Christ. So again, that's the HS moving us, if it has an interpretative link to the divine plan. If not, it might be some other spirit at work there.

For instance, if you're feeling empowered by a damnation scripture, and understanding it conveying eternal torment for unbelievers, I'd suggest that would not be the work of the HS, and so prayer and repentance might be in order.

 

[Saint Steven]

For instance, if you're feeling empowered by a damnation scripture, and understanding it conveying eternal torment for unbelievers, I'd suggest that would not be the work of the HS, and so prayer and repentance might be in order.

I'm not quick to blame the ignorant in reference to the greater hope, as you know.
They are, after all, upholding a literal reading of a Damnationist text. I place the bulk of blame on those that cooked the books, rather than the readers of today.

We are here as a light that shines in the dark, pointing to a better way, for those who will receive it. IMHO

I do agree that repentance (turning away from) is in order. But understanding must come first. My personal experience has shown me that it's a steep hill to climb. It requires work. And I'm still working on it. As are you, I would venture to say.

I reach for the hand of those ahead of me and offer a hand to those following. We'll all arrive together eventually. Isn't that what we believe? --- No room for "us and them" thinking. IMHO

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I'm not quick to blame the ignorant in reference to the greater hope, as you know.
They are, after all, upholding a literal reading of a Damnationist text. I place the bulk of blame on those that cooked the books, rather than the readers of today.

We are here as a light that shines in the dark, pointing to a better way, for those who will receive it. IMHO

I do agree that repentance (turning away from) is in order. But understanding must come first. My personal experience has shown me that it's a steep hill to climb. It requires work. And I'm still working on it. As are you, I would venture to say.

I reach for the hand of those ahead of me and offer a hand to those following. We'll all arrive together eventually. Isn't that what we believe? --- No room for "us and them" thinking. IMHO

Not blaming anybody Steve. It's just about discerning a spirit that's inimical to salvation grace and truth. It's the mosr basic way to test the spirits that I'm aware of. Yet why does it elude so many? The Bible answers that question. Jesus gives Pharisees and temple money-changers short shrift, and that's how we need to be, with ourselves and with others.

 

[Saint Steven]

Not blaming anybody Steve. It's just about discerning a spirit that's inimical to salvation grace and truth. It's the mosr basic way to test the spirits that I'm aware of. Yet why does it elude so many? The Bible answers that question. Jesus gives Pharisees and temple money-changers short shrift, and that's how we need to be, with ourselves and with others.

If we want anyone to listen to us, we will not be able to accomplish that with a declaration of war.

What is at the core of UR? Is it not restoration? This "us and them" thinking runs contrary to the plan. We should be mending what is broken, not breaking more stuff. IMHO

Remember, I was "the enemy" about six months ago. And I fought with you guys initially. But eventually you helped me learn about this. Would I have done that if you had gotten ugly with me? (maybe not)

 

[Shrewd Manager]

If we want anyone to listen to us, we will not be able to accomplish that with a declaration of war.

What is at the core of UR? Is it not restoration? This "us and them" thinking runs contrary to the plan. We should be mending what is broken, not breaking more stuff. IMHO

Remember, I was "the enemy" about six months ago. And I fought with you guys initially. But eventually you helped me learn about this. Would I have done that if you had gotten ugly with me? (maybe not)

So suggesting that the spirit of damnation is not the holy spirit qualifies as getting ugly now? Seriously?

I happen to consider damnationism to be the No.1 pernicious doctrine of demons that has long infected the body of Christ like a spiritual cancer, and I have all of history on my side as proof. So I'm not going to softpedal the issue just because ppl can't discern that I'm taking aim at the sin, the demon, the doctrine and not them personally as its victims. Ephesians 6:12.

 

[Saint Steven]

So suggesting that the spirit of damnation is not the holy spirit qualifies as getting ugly now? Seriously?

Check your PM box.

 

[Saint Steven]

I happen to consider damnationism to be the No.1 pernicious doctrine of demons that has long infected the body of Christ like a spiritual cancer, and I have all of history on my side as proof. So I'm not going to softpedal the issue just because ppl can't discern that I'm taking aim at the sin, the demon, the doctrine and not them personally as its victims. You see, you're falling into the same error as damnationists who've become confused between spirit and matter. Ephesians 6:12.

Check your PM box.

 

[Saint Steven]

This came up on the Godfire topic. @Lazarus Short
On this topic we had made reference to Elisha and the bears. (2 Kings 2:23-25)
It was probably a comparative to this story about Elijah.
Fire fell from heaven and consumed 51 men twice. (two captains and their companies)
Leaving the third company captain mighty nervous. (understandably)

2 Kings 1:9-15
Then he sent to Elijah a captain with his company of fifty men. The captain went up to Elijah, who was sitting on the top of a hill, and said to him, “Man of God, the king says, ‘Come down!’”
10 Elijah answered the captain, “If I am a man of God, may fire come down from heaven and consume you and your fifty men!” Then fire fell from heaven and consumed the captain and his men.
11 At this the king sent to Elijah another captain with his fifty men. The captain said to him, “Man of God, this is what the king says, ‘Come down at once!’”
12 “If I am a man of God,” Elijah replied, “may fire come down from heaven and consume you and your fifty men!” Then the fire of God fell from heaven and consumed him and his fifty men.
13 So the king sent a third captain with his fifty men. This third captain went up and fell on his knees before Elijah. “Man of God,” he begged, “please have respect for my life and the lives of these fifty men, your servants! 14 See, fire has fallen from heaven and consumed the first two captains and all their men. But now have respect for my life!”
15 The angel of the Lord said to Elijah, “Go down with him; do not be afraid of him.” So Elijah got up and went down with him to the king.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Is the Bible in fact "the word of God", or is it a book that CONTAINS the word of God?

So who picks and chooses?

 

[Shrewd Manager]

This came up on the Godfire topic. @Lazarus Short
On this topic we had made reference to Elisha and the bears. (2 Kings 2:23-25)
It was probably a comparative to this story about Elijah.
Fire fell from heaven and consumed 51 men twice. (two captains and their companies)
Leaving the third company captain mighty nervous. (understandably)

2 Kings 1:9-15
Then he sent to Elijah a captain with his company of fifty men. The captain went up to Elijah, who was sitting on the top of a hill, and said to him, “Man of God, the king says, ‘Come down!’”
10 Elijah answered the captain, “If I am a man of God, may fire come down from heaven and consume you and your fifty men!” Then fire fell from heaven and consumed the captain and his men.
11 At this the king sent to Elijah another captain with his fifty men. The captain said to him, “Man of God, this is what the king says, ‘Come down at once!’”
12 “If I am a man of God,” Elijah replied, “may fire come down from heaven and consume you and your fifty men!” Then the fire of God fell from heaven and consumed him and his fifty men.
13 So the king sent a third captain with his fifty men. This third captain went up and fell on his knees before Elijah. “Man of God,” he begged, “please have respect for my life and the lives of these fifty men, your servants! 14 See, fire has fallen from heaven and consumed the first two captains and all their men. But now have respect for my life!”
15 The angel of the Lord said to Elijah, “Go down with him; do not be afraid of him.” So Elijah got up and went down with him to the king.

Okay, but I don't see the parallels. Elijah sends fire on 2 x 51 men, Elisha sends 2 bears on 42 boys. What am I missing?