Faith Alone

[Albion]

Adhering to the guidance of the Holy Spirit is what produces works not faith.

But a person who is not a Christian is not being guided by the HS. He doesn't have Faith, so we cannot say that this even addresses the issue before us.

 

[Albion]

Here's the deal. Faith Saves. Works do not save. They are important to do, and a believer who has real Faith will of course aspire to live the way his Savior instructed.

Talking incessantly about people who DON'T have Faith, even if they may say that they do, is irrelevant. Leaving aside all claims about what some poster here wrote or did not write, what is not acceptable about the principle that is called Sola Fide?

That is the question.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Danthemailman absolutely is not saying that. D Taylor's post seems to agree, although I don't know what he meant by attaching that link.

Dan’s post say we are not judged according to our deeds.

 

[BNR32FAN]

But a person who is not a Christian is not being guided by the HS. He doesn't have Faith, so we cannot say that this even addresses the issue before us.

Sorry in advance for the CAPS. My Bible app automatically does that on OT quotes.

Receiving the Holy Spirit doesn’t guarantee salvation.

“Therefore, laying aside falsehood, SPEAK TRUTH EACH ONE of you WITH HIS NEIGHBOR, for we are members of one another. BE ANGRY, AND yet DO NOT SIN; do not let the sun go down on your anger, and do not give the devil an opportunity. He who steals must steal no longer; but rather he must labor, performing with his own hands what is good, so that he will have something to share with one who has need. Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear. Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4:25-32‬ ‭NASB

Paul continues...

“Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma. But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints; and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:1-6‬ ‭NASB

Those who continue to grieve the Holy Spirit has no inheritance in the kingdom of God and will receive God’s wrath on the sons of disobedience.

 

[Albion]

Dan’s post say we are not judged according to our deeds.

...and that sounds to you like a rejection of Sola Fide??

It is saying the exact opposite. But neither does it mean that the person can sin at will, confident that he's home free because of his alleged faith.

 

[Danthemailman]

Where do you see that anywhere in the entire chapter?

Matthew 7:23 - And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!' *Jesus never knew them which means they were never saved.* John 10:27 - My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. IN CONTRAST with verse 26 - But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.

 

[Danthemailman]

You are still making things up that are simply not true, by falsely accusing people of claiming works prodluces salvation, when works only prove our faith....they go hand and hand. Faith without works is dead. If our faith doesnt result in not living in sin, being, and doing good, then, once again, we have no faith.

Please stop the false accusations. I mean if that is the only way you can win this, I suppose that speaks volumes for what you are defending.

Please plainly state then that we are saved through faith, not works. Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate that there is no root. Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-26). Agreed?

 

[d taylor]

If we "believe" in Christ, we believe what he says, and what he says is we must do good, take care of the poor, and not live in sin.

If we dont "believe" and do those things, we have no belief in Christ, nor do we have faith in him, but only some empty word we call faith in order to help us decieve ourselves into believing we are heaven bound with our empty "faith only".

You only believe what He (Christ) says when it fits your beliefs.

 

[Danthemailman]

Ok so you agree that only those who continue to believe are saved right? What about those who believe but don’t have love?

Saving belief continues and is not some shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away. In regards to love, you must be referring to 1 Corinthians 13. It would be impossible to believe unto salvation and have absolutely no love at all. 1 John 4:7 - Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

In 1 Corinthians 13, Paul uses hyperbole about understanding ALL mysteries and ALL knowledge and having faith that can move mountains yet having NO love to stress the importance of love. Faith works through love (Galatians 5:6), but we are saved through faith, not faith plus love.

Love is the greater quality of the three because God is love and it outlasts them all. Long after the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen (Hebrews 11:1) are now seen and we are no longer seeking the blessed hope of Jesus Christ appearing (2 Titus 2:13) because he has appeared and we will be with Him forever, love will still be the governing principle that controls all that God and his saints are and do.

So Paul is stressing the importance of love and is not teaching that faith in Christ is insufficient to save us without our best efforts to love. All genuine believers love Christ. Why? Because we have received the love of God in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us (Romans 5:5) when we believed the gospel (Ephesians 1:13). We love Him because He first loved us (1 John 4:19).

 

[d taylor]

Who did I judge? Will you show me where I did such a thing? Or will you, as usual, not answer or prove your false accusation?

When one starts to throw that all to common, empty defense around as you are doing, all it does is show you have no viable argument.

It's much like Dan's all to common "Is christ not sufficient". Both are tired old learned responses designed to make the opposing side feel guilty, when in fact, neither are even true. Not one person here judged, nor did they so much as indicate Christ was not sufficient.

Made up junk that is not the truth, because you have no other real defense.

You make judgments against Gods way people receive Eternal Life. By saying it takes more than faith to receive Eternal Life.

A perfect example is the parable of the soils, you say only the last soil is saved. When there is no indication from this parable that the second and third soil did not receive Eternal Life.

The Bible states the first soil did not believe and be saved, but the second (ones on the rock) received the word with joy and believed, same with the second soil (the thorns) they also believe but were unfruitful.

So there is your judgment

 

[Danthemailman]

Finish reading the message. He doesn’t stop at verse 23 the message stops at verse 27. You who do lawlessness. Does that sound like not believing? No they didn’t act upon His words. He says this like 2 sentences after the verses you quoted.

These many people (unbelievers) in Matthew 7:22 had the wrong foundation. They were trusting in "their accomplishments/works" to save them and NOT IN CHRIST ALONE. Jesus never knew them which means they were never saved. *Seeking salvation by works is not the will of the Father.

John 17:3 - And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. The term "know" implies intimate, experiential knowledge, through a relationship with Him, not merely theoretical knowledge. These many people were not true converts. *Without faith it's impossible to please God no matter how many alleged wonderful works that these many people set out to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to obtain salvation based on works. This is why Jesus referred to these many people as "workers of iniquity." God does not see the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus (Romans 4:5-6; Philippians 3:9) in unbelievers, but He see's all of their sins which remain and have not been washed away by the blood of Christ.

I'll never forget, prior to my conversion several years ago, while still attending the Roman Catholic church, I read Matthew 7:22 and thought to myself, wow! These many people accomplished all of that, "prophesied in His name, cast out demons, and did many wonderful works" but that still was not "good enough?" Then I thought to myself at that time, how am I going to "top that" and be "good enough?" Such is the mindset of someone who thinks salvation is by works.

As we read on in Matthew 7:24-27, we find two different foundations with two different results, and not salvation by works, as some would suppose. Each house has a different material upon which its foundation is laid, and each house has a different final outcome. One house is built by a wise man upon a rock and it stands. The other is built by a foolish man upon the sand and it collapses.

Those deceived by their own self-righteousness in Matthew 7:22-23 were "outwardly" setting out to do things that the righteous would do, yet they did not truly know Christ (had no personal relationship with Christ) which stemmed from not truly believing in Him. The rock the wise man builds upon is true righteousness found in Jesus Christ alone. The sand the foolish man builds upon is self-righteousness. Only those who truly believe in Him are wise and hear the words of Jesus and properly acts on them. The foolish man twists the words of Jesus and acts on their own self-righteous works system and calls that acting on the words of Jesus.

 

[Danthemailman]

D Taylor and Danthemailman are both saying faith without works saves.

I'm not saying that an empty profession of faith/dead faith that produces no works at all saves. (James 2:14) That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. We are saved through faith apart from the merit of works, (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) yet authentic does not remain apart from the presence of works. (James 2:14-24)

 

[GDL]

This thread is all over the place. Not unusual.

1. Genuine Faith in Christ/God apart from works - works of righteousness & works of Law, which we have done - saves us.
2. Genuine Faith in Christ/God + working with God to accomplish our salvation saves us
3. Genuine Faith in Christ/God + working with God to accomplish our salvation will save us.

Faith w/o works saves us AND Faith + Works saves us. This is how the Text speaks re: Faith & Salvation.

Yes, No?

 

[GDL]

yet authentic does not remain apart from the presence of works

Missing a word here?

 

[GDL]

The rock the wise man builds upon is true righteousness found in Jesus Christ alone.

For the most part I have no issue with this statement as I think you're presenting it, but the "Christ Alone" part has come to trouble me, based upon several verses that also speak of the righteousness of God our Father. This stems from studying how much Jesus pointed to our Father, including believing our Father for eternal life (John 5:24).

 

[Francis Earl]

Your own quote makes clear it is not by faith alone, for it says to give your bodies to God... faith gives confidence to proceed, but Philippians 2:12 says even those who have been obeying need to work out their salvation... because it isn't done yet.

Acts 19 drives this home, for these men believe and are baptized yet have no idea about the Spirit... while elsewhere it says many will come to Jesus saying "Lord, Lord" but he will send them away because he never knew them... again, they are believers but nothing spiritual has happened, faith has accomplished nothing in them.

Again, John 17:20-26 prays all who believe him be made one that they know he was sent by God... so before this your faith proves nothing, nor is it what Jesus actually wants... he wants your faith to bring fruits, and the fruits of the Spirit are clearly asserted in Galatians 5:22-23 but if you do not have the Spirit you are not saved and these things will be superficial in you.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Matthew 7:23 - And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!' *Jesus never knew them which means they were never saved.* John 10:27 - My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. IN CONTRAST with verse 26 - But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.

Are you familiar with the word pisteuo? You might want to take a close look at the definition of the word translated to believe.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I'm not saying that an empty profession of faith/dead faith that produces no works at all saves. (James 2:14) That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. We are saved through faith apart from the merit of works, (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) yet authentic does not remain apart from the presence of works. (James 2:14-24)

I apologize I misunderstood your position brother Dan. Please forgive my mistake.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Please plainly state then that we are saved through faith, not works. Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate that there is no root. Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-26). Agreed?

Faith must acoompany works and works must accompany faith. For those who think we need nothing more than to say we have faith, If we aren't doing our works as in the sheep and the goats, then we are not going to be saved.

 

[GDL]

Your own quote makes clear it is not by faith alone

Whose own quote?