Faith Alone

[Monk Brendan]

Catholics are synergistic in their soteriology - one must cooperate with God's grace in order to be saved. It is insufficient to merely have faith. One must obey a long list of Catholic commandments in order to hope for salvation,

Oh? What long list of Catholic Commandments must one obey in order to hope for salvation? Please be specific.

 

[dqhall]

Baptism is actual participation in Christ's death and Resurrection, so I'd say it's pretty important, yeah.

When someone is ready for baptism I think varies on a case-by-case basis. Generally, though, if someone isn't actively being raised in the faith, they should have a very solid understanding of the faith and morality expected of them, before baptism.

For Jesus, baptism was to accept the Holy Spirit like a dove descending upon him (Mark 1:10). Baptism of new Christians was practiced as the churches grew through conversion. In the Jewish religion, a person converting to Judaism was circumcised and then dipped in water seven days later. Christianity skips the circumcision requirement (Acts 15).

Matthew 17:20 (WEB) ... For most certainly I tell you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will tell this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you.

Faith is not licentiousness. Though Jesus taught people should forgive one another, Jesus also taught people should not offend one another.

 

[Blade]

Constantine the Sinner, I agree with the 1st part you said. There was something there for me. But.. I was going to post more but.. truth? I never heard "anathematize" and I am 56 lol. Yeshua/Jesus is SO real. There are some other ..well lets say "Churchs" out there I don't agree with.

But.. for you this is what I saw? In your typing. Its like this a girl in collage one night out side as I was watching a movie with tons of others. Comes up says "your a Christian aren't you? I said YES how did you know? She said... there just something about you.

So when I read the bible.. theres just something there Other books.. well like Jesus would say.. no life in them. I LOVE the sweet sweet Holy Spirit. You blessed me.. dont know why .. Now back to looking to a new word.. OMGOSH.. its like SCHOOL all over again

 

[Galilee63]

Works from hearts in joy offering up those works to Jesus for a few Holy reasons

This Glorifies God through Jesus Holy Spirit and our Blessed Virgin Mother Mary
The genuine good works from hearts not just minds alone are to be offered up as sacrifices to Jesus God and Holy Spirit for Jesus to use those and our sufferings to assist in our Lords Jesus Holy Works in Heaven for The Holy Souls in Purgatory for Souls on their way to eternal damnation for the conversions and salvation of the sick dying injured and our Lord Jesus Healing of them for the afflicted souls everywhere and many other Holy causes Jesus Himself has told His Saints for centuries each Century with Holy Spirit and our Blessed Virgin Mother Mary

Holy works Deeds Actions Prayers Sacrifices should always be from our hearts offering those to Jesus for Jesus And His Holy Causes and Jesus always requested in His Holy Word "Do this for Me"

 

[Galilee63]

what is syncretism bbbbbbb?

 

[Phil 1:21]

You're going to have to do some high level "proving" in order to sustain that argument. There are plenty of Protestant churches that are Sola Fide bodies and still emphasize charitable action...and do a lot of it themselves.

Absolutely! Our church stresses serving, within the church, within the community, and around the globe. But no one there preaches that handing out bulletins before service, volunteering at a local shelter, or going on mission trips are steps toward eternal salvation.

 

[zippy2006]

You're going to have to do some high level "proving" in order to sustain that argument. There are plenty of Protestant churches that are Sola Fide bodies and still emphasize charitable action...and do a lot of it themselves.

One of your most prominent bishops, N.T. Wright, has said that he has seen a pervasive schizophrenic relation between churches that preach salvation by faith and those that preach charitable works. I've seen plenty of the first category on CF.

 

[Erose]

Catholics kind of compromised their position when they said you could literally buy the "supererogation" of saints to compensate for your lack of works, and even going to far as to sell certificates for it as a way to get out fasting during Lent. Commodification of works for the sake of salvation, is indeed at fundamental odds with the Gospel and Christ's conception of works.

Your understanding of this is completely misplaced. The Church condemned this understanding as a from of Usury well before the Protestant Revolt. It is not the Church's fault, any church for that matter, when members of said church take advantage of others "in the name of that church". This has happened since there was religion, and will always happen until the sheep and goats are separated.

It is not nor has it ever been the teaching of the Catholic Church that one can "buy" grace or penance or whatever.

 

[Erose]

Who is covering? The Church no longer allows the selling of indulgences. Who do you even think yourself to be arguing with? Instead of addressing a live difference between traditional Christians and Protestants, you opted to re-ignite a dead issue of Catholic bashing that is old news. That's petty. My point with toll houses was that we all make mistakes. The relevant difference is that some of us admit it and some of us try to rewrite history.

The Church has never condoned the selling of indulgences.

 

[Albion]

One of your most prominent bishops, N.T. Wright, has said that he has seen a pervasive schizophrenic relation between churches that preach salvation by faith and those that preach charitable works. I've seen plenty of the first category on CF.

N.T. Wright is one of MY bishops? He is a member of the Church of England. If you can be mistaken about this, it's pretty clear that you can also be wrong about Calvinism.

 

[Danthemailman]

The word "alone" in regards to salvation through faith "in Christ alone" conveys the message that Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony.*

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

Your understanding of this is completely misplaced. The Church condemned this understanding as a from of Usury well before the Protestant Revolt. It is not the Church's fault, any church for that matter, when members of said church take advantage of others "in the name of that church". This has happened since there was religion, and will always happen until the sheep and goats are separated.

It is not nor has it ever been the teaching of the Catholic Church that one can "buy" grace or penance or whatever.

Explain the Butter Tower.

Some more parts were built in Late (Flamboyant) Gothic style, these include the last storey of Saint Romain's Tower (15th century), the Butter Tower, main porch of the front and the two storeys of the lantern tower (16th century).[9] Construction of the south-west tower began in 1485 and was finished in 1507. The Butter Tower was erected in the early 16th century. Butter was banned during Lent and those who did not wish to forgo this indulgence would donate monies of six deniers Tournois from each diocesan for this permission.[10]

 

[Erose]

Explain the Butter Tower.

Some more parts were built in Late (Flamboyant) Gothic style, these include the last storey of Saint Romain's Tower (15th century), the Butter Tower, main porch of the front and the two storeys of the lantern tower (16th century).[9] Construction of the south-west tower began in 1485 and was finished in 1507. The Butter Tower was erected in the early 16th century. Butter was banned during Lent and those who did not wish to forgo this indulgence would donate monies of six deniers Tournois from each diocesan for this permission.[10]

You may want to spend a little more time fact checking what you post here. 1st the footnote for that idea is found from a cook book, and does not refer to an actual history book or an official document of the church. After going through about 20 links on Google the only one I found that came close to making a similar claim is found here: The Butter Tower of Rouen and what it says is this:

Located on the southern edge of the facade of the famous Rouen Cathedral, the Butter Tower, constructed between 1485 and 1506, is a masterpiece of Late Gothic, or Flamboyant Gothic, style architecture. Whereas some historians attribute its name to the unique color of stone used to construct it which almost gives the illusion that it was sculpted out of butter, others believe that butter is the reason for the tower, rather than the inspiration.

Apparently, the construction of this magnificent tower was financed by the indulgences collected by the Church from the wealthy citizens who ate dairy products during Lent - despite the formal interdiction of the Church! Normandy is famous for its dairy products - and has been for quite some time - and the citizens of Rouen, although quite religious, were unable to resist the siren song of the famous Normandy butter, and so were able to reconcile their insatiable appetites by donating to the church. Sadly there is no official record of just how much butter they consumed during those 21 years, but if the level of detail in the architecture of the tower is any indication, we can imagine that they indulged in quite a bit..

So two things I get from this is a) not all historians accept this occurrence as historical fact, and b) and those that do claim that this was interdicted (i.e prohibited) by the Church when they heard about it.

So where is you next proof?

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

Apparently, the construction of this magnificent tower was financed by the indulgences collected by the Church from the wealthy citizens who ate dairy products during Lent - despite the formal interdiction of the Church!

The interdiction is against eating dairy during Lent (which is still maintained by the Orthodox Church). Not against indulgences. Indulgences were required precisely because of the interdiction against dairy.

 

[Erose]

The interdiction is against eating dairy during Lent (which is still maintained by the Orthodox Church). Not against indulgences. Indulgences were required precisely because of the interdiction against dairy.

Look unless you have another valid source to back up your claim you are climbing a tree, you can't get back down from on this matter. For what you want it to say isn't what it is saying. You are ignoring the word "despite" in the above quote. If it used the word "through" or "by" then you would have an argument. But it didn't. Nothing I have seen supports your claim except for a cook book referenced in Wiki. Every other source that looked legitimate claimed that the tower was called butter tower because of how it looked. So from my seat and anyone who doesn't have a grind against the Church, there is nothing to see here.