Fait - where does it come from?

[Skala]

Typo in the title - Faith**, not "fait". lol

The point of this thread is to discuss where faith comes from, where does it originate. Is it a gift of God? Is it completely the product of man?* Is it the product of the unregenerate heart? Is it even possible that the unregenerate heart could exercise saving faith?

(*Note, there is a difference between saying that faith is the product of man, and saying that man exercises faith. We all believe that men exercise faith, by willing choice)

I'll start with 2 arguments.

1) This argument has to do with whether Christ purchased my salvation in total, meaning he purchased all facets of my salvation, which includes faith. He purchased all spiritual blessings, and faith is included, since it's a spiritual blessing.

First Christ says His atonement is the cup of the new covenant:

Luk 22:20 And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.

And here the author of Hebrews describes the new covenant:

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

So God describes His work in this covenant as He Himself taking action to write his law on our hearts and minds. The effect of this is: They will be my people and I will be their God.

In other words God's work is effectual because it results in people being saved. There is no chance of failure here. In other words, the new covenant, described God, is the very doctrine of "effectual grace' or "irresistible grace".

That is what Jesus did on the cross. He accomplished this. He said so Himself. "It is finished". "This is the cup of the new covenant."

So Christ's work secured my future regeneration. If he secured it, with no chance of failing, it is irrelevant (for the sake of this argument) whether faith comes before or after regeneration, or whether faith results in regeneration or is the product of regeneration. Either way, Christ secured my regeneration.

Therefore, he could not have died for everyone equally because not everyone experiences regeneration. Not everyone has God's law "written on their minds and hearts". Thus, they could not have been part of this covenant. To say they were part of the covenant, yet do not experience what Heb 8:10 says they should, is to say that God failed or make God a liar.

2) Faith is a gift

There are several, several passages that teach that faith is a gift from God. In other words, it is given from God, to us. That is why we exercise it. Please read this passage:

1Co 12:4-11
(4) Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit;
(5) and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord;
(6) and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone.
(7) To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.
(8) For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit,
(9) to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,
(10) to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.
(11) All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.

It is unmistakable that faith is given to us from the Holy Spirit, as He wills. Faith is described as a spiritual gift, by Paul, in this passage.

Php 1:29 For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake,

It is granted to us, given to us, to believe in Christ.


2Ti 2:24-25
(24) And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil,
(25) correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth,

Again, repentance is granted (given) by God.


2Ch 30:1-12
(1) Hezekiah sent to all Israel and Judah, and wrote letters also to Ephraim and Manasseh, that they should come to the house of the LORD at Jerusalem to keep the Passover to the LORD, the God of Israel.
(2) For the king and his princes and all the assembly in Jerusalem had taken counsel to keep the Passover in the second month--
(3) for they could not keep it at that time because the priests had not consecrated themselves in sufficient number, nor had the people assembled in Jerusalem--
(4) and the plan seemed right to the king and all the assembly.
(5) So they decreed to make a proclamation throughout all Israel, from Beersheba to Dan, that the people should come and keep the Passover to the LORD, the God of Israel, at Jerusalem, for they had not kept it as often as prescribed.
(6) So couriers went throughout all Israel and Judah with letters from the king and his princes, as the king had commanded, saying, "O people of Israel, return to the LORD, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, that he may turn again to the remnant of you who have escaped from the hand of the kings of Assyria.
(7) Do not be like your fathers and your brothers, who were faithless to the LORD God of their fathers, so that he made them a desolation, as you see.
(8) Do not now be stiff-necked as your fathers were, but yield yourselves to the LORD and come to his sanctuary, which he has consecrated forever, and serve the LORD your God, that his fierce anger may turn away from you.
(9) For if you return to the LORD, your brothers and your children will find compassion with their captors and return to this land. For the LORD your God is gracious and merciful and will not turn away his face from you, if you return to him."
(10) So the couriers went from city to city through the country of Ephraim and Manasseh, and as far as Zebulun, but they laughed them to scorn and mocked them.
(11) However, some men of Asher, of Manasseh, and of Zebulun humbled themselves and came to Jerusalem.
(12) The hand of God was also on Judah to give them one heart to do what the king and the princes commanded by the word of the LORD.

After all is said and done, the author gives us a clue as to why Judah (and others) obeyed the command to repent: God's hand was on them to give them a heart to obey.


Eph 2:8-9
(8) For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
(9) not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

We've already established on these forums that the word "this" is a pronoun pointing, not to any one thing in particular, but to the collective phrase. Grammatically, there is just no arguing this point or disagreeing with it. Theologically, one can disagree, but grammatically (which is what matters), you cannot.

The entire experience of "being saved by grace through faith" is "Not of yourselves, but the gift from God, so that no man can boast" (so that no man can take credit for his salvation)

There are many more passages, but these should do for now.

And those are my two arguments. I'd love to hear others, from both sides of the theological views

 

[heterodoxical]

Faith, first define it. It's not BELIEF, that is a step to faith. It's trust. Abe had a belief God would take care of Isaac, even though he was told to sacrifice him. He walked the path and was ready to do so. That is TRUST, that comes after faith.

It can't happen until you let go and rely on Him. God is the fulfiller of that Faith, and the fulfillment is where the growth occurs.

 

[oworm]

We've already established on these forums that the word "this" is a pronoun pointing, not to any one thing in particular, but to the collective phrase. Grammatically, there is just no arguing this point or disagreeing with it. Theologically, one can disagree, but grammatically (which is what matters), you cannot.

That alone should settle the question that it is a conceptual antecedent that salvation by grace through faith is a gift ...........................But it won't

 

[heymikey80]

Faith, first define it. It's not BELIEF, that is a step to faith. It's trust.

Actually ... Scripture uses the same word for "belief" and "faith". There is a difference in what the word means to communicate, depending on whether the grammatical object is a person or a thing. But it doesn't appear to be used with any specifics when it comes to faith in a person.

In English, if we were to use "belief" in terms of the doctrines or facts (nonpersons), then Scripture seems to use it backwards from this. It appears to take the interpersonal "faith" to accept the objective "beliefs" of the Christian system, according to Scripture. "3By faith we understand that the universe was created by(B) the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible." Heb 11:3

Abe had a belief God would take care of Isaac, even though he was told to sacrifice him. He walked the path and was ready to do so. That is TRUST, that comes after faith.

Abraham concluded God would take care of Isaac because of his prior faith. Abraham relied on God long before the incident with Isaac (cf Rom 4:9b-10).

It can't happen until you let go and rely on Him. God is the fulfiller of that Faith, and the fulfillment is where the growth occurs.

Christ is also the founder of this faith (Heb 12:2), through the Spirit, Who changes hearts (Rom 10:10, Rom 2:29).

 

[heterodoxical]

Actually ... Scripture uses the same word for "belief" and "faith".

errrnngggg! (game show buzzer) Presupposes the author meant one or the other anyway. Doesn't prove it was belief or faith as the intent. To make your statement you have to presuppose you are right. Just fallacious.

There is a difference in what the word means to communicate, depending on whether the grammatical object is a person or a thing. But it doesn't appear to be used with any specifics when it comes to faith in a person.

first sentence throws me. How does a thing have faith?

second sentence, specifics of faith are well defined in the bible. Belief is belief, faith is relying on, or acting on the belief. Abe wouldn't be the father of faith, had he NOT done the walk up the mountain, I don't care how much he believed God would provide.

In English, if we were to use "belief" in terms of the doctrines or facts (nonpersons), then Scripture seems to use it backwards from this.

Are we discussing biblical faith, or English etymology? The only definition that really matters here is what the authors meant in the language they wrote it in. You step into a dilemma with discussing the english words of redefining the words. Example:

Burning a [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]....

Could get you in humans rights violations court.
could get you cancer.
Could keep you warm. All are good definitions of "[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]".

James shows abes faith was determined by his action, not his belief. This clarifies Paul's comments on Abe's faith, since Paul wasn't writing to define what the faith was, but it was a core part of James letter.

Abraham concluded God would take care of Isaac because of his prior faith. Abraham relied on God long before the incident with Isaac (cf Rom 4:9b-10).

I find it interesting the single minded focus of your comments...

ROM2 For if Abraham was justified [fn2] by works, he has something to boast about, but not [fn3] before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."

Jam 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? Jam 2:22 You see that faith was working with his works, and [fn19]as a result of the works, faith was [fn20]perfected;
The action defines that there is faith. From experiencing the actions your faith grows. You have to take the first step in action, before there is any faith. THUS WHAT YOU HAVE FIRST IS BELIEF, not faith, you act on the belief and faith grows from there. I stand on the edge of the pool and believe you when you say you will catch me.... I jump you catch, I jump over and over you always catch, now I have FAITH you will catch me.

Faith can not be defined without the works occuring, no more than agapao can be claimed if there was no action/expression/works behind it.

Christ is also the founder of this faith (Heb 12:2),

Hbr 12:2 [fn1]fixing our eyes on Jesus, the [fn2]author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.


1) Then abraham couldn't have had faith. There was no CHRIST then. He was only Christ after being born of Mary's womb and maturing. OT closest thing to a Christ was Melchizedek. Your claim to founder is errant.

2) The verse says the author, meaning the director of how it happens. That doesn't presuppose it was there to start with, merely who is in charge of the development of that faith. It doesn't define how it begins.

3) PERFECTOR, would be the maturing of the faith, exactly as I explained in the first place.


1) You can't define faith without the Works. Abraham proved that in the James verse.

2) You start with belief, the rational side of things.

3) You trust on that belief, and you begin to have faith as God fulfills the trust. (Assuming you trust in a promise and not some stupid challenge like I'll walk blindfolded across the hwy at rush hour traffic time.)

BELIEF is watching the parachute videos and seing it work and thus believing you would be ok.

FAITH is running out the door with no fear, trepidation, nor pause to reconsider your beliefs.

 

[oworm]

errrnngggg! (game show buzzer) Presupposes the author meant one or the other anyway. Doesn't prove it was belief or faith as the intent. To make your statement you have to presuppose you are right. Just fallacious.

πίστις = Faith,belief,trust (According to every Koine Greek lectionary)

 

[cygnusx1]

Faith - where does it come from?


...if scripture indicates that the faith of Christians is worthy of THANKSGIVING to the Lord , the answer to the OPs question will be self evident , God gives faith and we give thanks .... now does scripture anywhere indicate anyone giving thanks to God for the faith of Christians ? try reading Paul's letters .

 

[heymikey80]

errrnngggg! (game show buzzer) Presupposes the author meant one or the other anyway. Doesn't prove it was belief or faith as the intent. To make your statement you have to presuppose you are right. Just fallacious.

Normally when the author uses a word he means it to be understood by other people at the time.

That does prove it was what Greek usage at the time meant it to be.

I don't have to presuppose I'm right. I just have to use historical data to demonstrate it. Bauer/Arndt/Gingrich.

first sentence throws me. How does a thing have faith?

Grammar. The object of faith. Basic grammar.

second sentence, specifics of faith are well defined in the bible. Belief is belief, faith is relying on, or acting on the belief. Abe wouldn't be the father of faith, had he NOT done the walk up the mountain, I don't care how much he believed God would provide.

They're the same word. There's no such thing as "faith in a belief" for that reason: it'd be nonsense in Greek.

Are we discussing biblical faith, or English etymology? The only definition that really matters here is what the authors meant in the language they wrote it in. You step into a dilemma with discussing the english words of redefining the words.

I'm discussing biblical faith, your interpretation deviates from biblical faith.

Some points -- Jesus Himself said He was before Abraham. The verse uses a Greek term -- "starter". Then it uses another word -- "finisher".

Scripture defines faith without the works, in the case of Abraham: Romans 4:1-5.

There's nowhere Scripture says, "You start with belief, the rational side of things." And of course, back to what I've already mentioned, "faith in belief" is nonsense when backtranslate into Greek.

BELIEF isn't watching anything. That would be observing.
FAITH is relying, as is belief

 

[oworm]

What you have proven is you can find an online lexicon. Not that you can use it.

Actually I have two semesters of NT Greek and not a few lectionaries in my collection. No need to reply to this post as I won't see it. Thankyou for your input.

 

[heymikey80]

Actually I have two semesters of NT Greek and not a few lectionaries in my collection. No need to reply to this post as I won't see it. Thankyou for your input.

Lack of support from the lexical surveys would be a sign of the problem with the "belief-then-faith" viewpoint ....

 

[oworm]

This doesn't address the OPs question directly but perhaps we need a biblical definition of what faith is as we discuss its source.

Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

Simplistically put, faith is assurance and conviction. Both concepts are external in their focus. They are not introverted or introspective. Faith is assurance and conviction of a reality from outside that comes inside. It is the result of God working in the circumstances and experience of individuals to bring them to a state of assurance in Him that brings the hope of his future promises that they will come to fruition. it is the conviction that is the result of God revealing himself that he is the object of faith or trust or belief.

Maybe that helps in some way to answer the question.

 

[heterodoxical]

This doesn't address the OPs question directly but perhaps we need a biblical definition of what faith is as we discuss its source.



Simplistically put, faith is assurance and conviction. Both concepts are external in their focus. They are not introverted or introspective. Faith is assurance and conviction of a reality from outside that comes inside. It is the result of God working in the circumstances and experience of individuals to bring them to a state of assurance in Him that brings the hope of his future promises that they will come to fruition. it is the conviction that is the result of God revealing himself that he is the object of faith or trust or belief.

Maybe that helps in some way to answer the question.

So, now after stating that faith/belief were synonyms, you promote a definition that matched what I was saying. Conviction would be action, the action abe took to go up the mountain, not knowing how God would provide. Man, you guys worry me sometimes.

 

[His]

U gotta love the self proclaimed victors. I remember this teacher at my school, Hugh Briss he couldnt give anything in an argument.

Don't you mean hubris?

 

[heterodoxical]

heterodoxical is on my ignore list due to his ad hominen undertones. I can't see his posts unless they are quoted by others so its no big deal to me.

Ad Hominem is where you call someone names to avoid the actual argument. I've avoided no argument. I've not called names. If you murder someone, and the paper labels you a murderer, that is not calling you names that is identifying you. He offended me. That would be the offense. He insulted me with an appeal to authority. HE AVOIDED THE ARGUMENTS, not me. By definition he was the ad hominemer. to make up a word.

why do you people think you can offend with impugnity because it's a Xian forum, but if you offend someone and they point it out so you have a chance to reconcile and adjust they are name calling.

I guess you dont like to be identified as committing an offense? That's my best guess.

 

[heterodoxical]

Don't you mean hubris?

Ummm, I thought the play on words was obvious.
yes

 

[heterodoxical]

Ad Hominem---Arguments of this kind focus not on the evidence for a view but on the character of the person advancing it; they seek to discredit positions by discrediting those who hold them. It is always important to attack arguments, rather than arguers, and this is where arguments that commit the ad hominem fallacy fall down.

An appeal to authority is an argument from the fact that a person judged to be an authority affirms a proposition to the claim that the proposition is true.
Appeals to authority are always deductively fallacious; even a legitimate authority speaking on his area of expertise may affirm a falsehood, so no testimony of any authority is guaranteed to be true.

I would appreciate the slanderous accusation of ad hominem to be substantiated or withdrawn from the forum.

Empty assertions to escape being wrong by playing on other's emotions is insulting.

Now, I guess since I have stated you are insulting, someone will proclaim I'm "name calling" again. But unfortunately I'm using the word to describe the behavior that the english language provided me.

 

[His]

Ummm, I thought the play on words was obvious.
yes

Why would you deliberately be so insulting?

 

[His]

He offended me. That would be the offense. He insulted me with an appeal to authority.

Umm............... actually he was responding to your insulting statement

What you have proven is you can find an online lexicon. Not that you can use it.

He then stated that he had learned some Greek. It was actually YOU who initiated the offense. You are the one who owes an apology sir

 

[His]

double post

 

[oworm]

Well anyway................Shall we return to the subject at hand?