F.B.I. Plans to Lower Recruiting Standards

[ThatRobGuy]

Tunes haven’t changed. You read into those articles something that wasn’t there. Nobody in either one proposed dropping the education requirement. You put “relevant work experience” and “worth considering” in quotes when neither phrase exists in either piece. You fabricated them.

If you note what was mentioned in the WaPo piece:

“We recognize the challenges and the obstacles that law enforcement agencies face in trying to diversify,” said Malik Aziz, the national chairman of the National Black Police Association. “But the pool of qualified candidates of color is there.”

“The FBI tends to look more at candidates who are not coming from traditional law enforcement — when we have an estimated 110,000 black police officers in the country,” Aziz said. “Instead of focusing recruitment on individuals who have completed college and are looking for jobs in the FBI, the FBI should look at the many police departments who have shown a great commitment to law enforcement,” he said.


Given that the majority of local PD LEOs don't have 4-year degrees, how else would one interpret that other than "If the Bureau is looking to diversify a little more, they should be considering the many existing LEOs instead of College graduates"?

 

[ThatRobGuy]

It weeds out the intellectually challenged. It ensures candidates have experienced a wider world and learnt how to think critically.

Otherwise you end up with backward thugs like the American police.

A) A 24 year old with a bachelors degree hasn't "experienced a wider world" -- especially not in today's environment, they've experienced high-school and then experienced 4 years of an ideologically contained bubble environment. The idea of college kids coming out of university systems being more "well-rounded" hasn't been a reality since the late 90's.

To use the inverse, it'd be like saying that someone is more well-rounded and has "experienced more of the world" because they went to 4 years of bible college after HS.

Does Higher Education Teach Students to Think Critically?

There is a discernible and growing gap between the qualifications that a university degree certifies and the actual generic, 21st-century skills with which students graduate from higher education. By generic skills, it is meant literacy and critical thinking skills encompassing problem solving...

www.oecd.org

Even more significant is the qualitative mismatch between the skills demand generated by the economic and social reality in labour markets and societies, and the supply of skills by higher education institutions. Employers and economic organisations express with increasingly louder voices that they are no longer confident that graduates have acquired the skills needed for the 21st-century workplace, in particular, generic skills such as problem solving, communication, creativity, and critical thinking.


As far as your part B)

Per Cato Institute’s National Police Misconduct Reporting Project (MPMRP), approximately 1% of all police officers engage in misconduct.

A 44-state study summarized by Everything Policy reveals that over a decade, about 20% of officers are accused of misconduct. Of these, only around 8% are found to have actually committed misconduct—meaning that roughly 1.6% of officers over that period face substantiated misconduct findings.

USA Today / Invisible Institute national reporting shows over the past decade, at least 85,000 U.S. officers were investigated or disciplined for alleged misconduct—across an estimated force of around 800,000 over 10 years, this averages to about 1% per year.


"American police are backwards thugs" seems like a bit if a broad brush given that only 1% would fit that description.

 

[ozso]

If you note what was mentioned in the WaPo piece:

“We recognize the challenges and the obstacles that law enforcement agencies face in trying to diversify,” said Malik Aziz, the national chairman of the National Black Police Association. “But the pool of qualified candidates of color is there.”

“The FBI tends to look more at candidates who are not coming from traditional law enforcement — when we have an estimated 110,000 black police officers in the country,” Aziz said. “Instead of focusing recruitment on individuals who have completed college and are looking for jobs in the FBI, the FBI should look at the many police departments who have shown a great commitment to law enforcement,” he said.


Given that the majority of local PD LEOs don't have 4-year degrees, how else would one interpret that other than "If the Bureau is looking to diversify a little more, they should be considering the many existing LEOs instead of College graduates"?

Seriously who's more qualified, an experienced police officer, or someone with a bachelor's in culinary arts?

 

[Larniavc]

A) A 24 year old with a bachelors degree hasn't "experienced a wider world" -- especially not in today's environment, they've experienced high-school and then experienced 4 years of an ideologically contained bubble environment. The idea of college kids coming out of university systems being more "well-rounded" hasn't been a reality since the late 90's.

View attachment 369373

To use the inverse, it'd be like saying that someone is more well-rounded and has "experienced more of the world" because they went to 4 years of bible college after HS.

Does Higher Education Teach Students to Think Critically?

There is a discernible and growing gap between the qualifications that a university degree certifies and the actual generic, 21st-century skills with which students graduate from higher education. By generic skills, it is meant literacy and critical thinking skills encompassing problem solving...

www.oecd.org

Even more significant is the qualitative mismatch between the skills demand generated by the economic and social reality in labour markets and societies, and the supply of skills by higher education institutions. Employers and economic organisations express with increasingly louder voices that they are no longer confident that graduates have acquired the skills needed for the 21st-century workplace, in particular, generic skills such as problem solving, communication, creativity, and critical thinking.


As far as your part B)

Per Cato Institute’s National Police Misconduct Reporting Project (MPMRP), approximately 1% of all police officers engage in misconduct.

A 44-state study summarized by Everything Policy reveals that over a decade, about 20% of officers are accused of misconduct. Of these, only around 8% are found to have actually committed misconduct—meaning that roughly 1.6% of officers over that period face substantiated misconduct findings.

USA Today / Invisible Institute national reporting shows over the past decade, at least 85,000 U.S. officers were investigated or disciplined for alleged misconduct—across an estimated force of around 800,000 over 10 years, this averages to about 1% per year.


"American police are backwards thugs" seems like a bit if a broad brush given that only 1% would fit that description.

Yeah, disagree. Going to uni you meet so many people from different walks of life that you never would if you just went to high school and got a job in the town you grew up in.

Your horizons about the wider world are so much broader after meeting that many people from different cultures and backgrounds.

Go straight from school to a factory, retail or service industry does not broaden your horizons the way that a university education does.

 

[iluvatar5150]

If you note what was mentioned in the WaPo piece:

“We recognize the challenges and the obstacles that law enforcement agencies face in trying to diversify,” said Malik Aziz, the national chairman of the National Black Police Association. “But the pool of qualified candidates of color is there.”

“The FBI tends to look more at candidates who are not coming from traditional law enforcement — when we have an estimated 110,000 black police officers in the country,” Aziz said. “Instead of focusing recruitment on individuals who have completed college and are looking for jobs in the FBI, the FBI should look at the many police departments who have shown a great commitment to law enforcement,” he said.


Given that the majority of local PD LEOs don't have 4-year degrees, how else would one interpret that other than "If the Bureau is looking to diversify a little more, they should be considering the many existing LEOs instead of College graduates"?

You’re skipping over the condition “and are looking for jobs in the FBI.”

Local cops likely aren’t actively looking for jobs at the FBI. He’s not saying to drop the college requirement; he’s saying to go poach active cops who aren’t looking.

Elsewhere in that piece (I’m going from memory), Comey was quoted as saying that the practice of only hiring grads with work experience was hurting them because that work experience had given them a taste of private sector money that the feds couldn’t compete with. The implication there was not to drop the college requirement; it was to drop the experience requirement.

 

[DaisyDay]

America is becoming a Presidential Loyaltochracy.

Governmental overreach? I don't think that's the right term...

 

[DaisyDay]

If you note what was mentioned in the WaPo piece:

“We recognize the challenges and the obstacles that law enforcement agencies face in trying to diversify,” said Malik Aziz, the national chairman of the National Black Police Association. “But the pool of qualified candidates of color is there.”

“The FBI tends to look more at candidates who are not coming from traditional law enforcement — when we have an estimated 110,000 black police officers in the country,” Aziz said. “Instead of focusing recruitment on individuals who have completed college and are looking for jobs in the FBI, the FBI should look at the many police departments who have shown a great commitment to law enforcement,” he said.


Given that the majority of local PD LEOs don't have 4-year degrees, how else would one interpret that other than "If the Bureau is looking to diversify a little more, they should be considering the many existing LEOs instead of College graduates"?

I thought diversity was now anathema and grounds for dismissal in the current administration.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

I thought diversity was now anathema and grounds for dismissal in the current administration.

It is, but that doesn't change the fact that some diversity-focused folks did a 180 on this.

https://www.axios.com/2024/04/30/white-house-hiring-cyber-jobs-requirements

Harris even touted the concept in a campaign speech:

Vice President and Democratic presidential nominee Kamala Harris said at a campaign rally on Friday that as president, she would “get rid of the unnecessary degree requirements"

"As president, I will get rid of the unnecessary degree requirements for federal jobs to increase jobs for folks without a four-year degree," Harris said in her speech in Wilkes-Barre, Pennsylvania.
More than 62% of Americans age 25 or older did not hold a bachelor's degree, according to data released, opens new tab by the U.S. Census Bureau in early 2023. Americans without college degrees made up three out of five voters in 2020.
The Democratic presidential candidate said on Friday the U.S. should recognize the value of paths to success beyond a college degree, like apprenticeships and technical programs.
A degree does not necessarily indicate a person's skills, She added.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Local cops likely aren’t actively looking for jobs at the FBI. He’s not saying to drop the college requirement; he’s saying to go poach active cops who aren’t looking.

Is there any data you're referencing there to suggest that they're not interested? Is their "lack of looking" because they're not interested? Or because the current requirement makes it so they don't have a shot so they have a "why bother" attitude towards it?

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Yeah, disagree. Going to uni you meet so many people from different walks of life that you never would if you just went to high school and got a job in the town you grew up in.

Your horizons about the wider world are so much broader after meeting that many people from different cultures and backgrounds.

Go straight from school to a factory, retail or service industry does not broaden your horizons the way that a university education does.

Which university is this that you're referring to?

When I was in college, I met a bunch of people who weren't any more diverse than the people I went to HS with and people I worked with at the grocery store when I was 16.

If one perhaps studied abroad, then you may be able to make a case for that, but if we're talking about an American going to an American university in the state they grew up in (which is the majority of them), then the data would suggest that they're not getting "broadened horizons" to any significant degree...

Over 70% of U.S. undergraduates attend college in their home state.

• NCES found that in 2020, 78% of degree-seeking individuals enrolled in an in-state institution.
• This has been very consistent since at least the 1980s, usually ranging from 70–80%.

If you're talking about some White people getting some exposure to Black & Hispanic people and getting to interact with them, you're more likely to get that with a summer construction job.

Whereas, with the university experience that most people have (post-2015):

"I'm an upper-middle class White kid from Columbus and I got to meet some upper-middle class White kids from Toledo" (and we both got to be inculcated with almost exclusively left-leaning precepts in the process) -- with the exception being the guys who make the college football team, they may get to hang out with some Black guys.

Wow, what an eye-opening journey of personal growth and development lol.

 

[iluvatar5150]

Is there any data you're referencing there to suggest that they're not interested? Is their "lack of looking" because they're not interested? Or because the current requirement makes it so they don't have a shot so they have a "why bother" attitude towards it?

My understanding is that it has more to do with the way compensation and advancement are handled in the public sector vs the private. In the private sector, pensions don't exist and pay scales are up to the whims of senior management, with it usually being the case that new hires come in at higher rates than existing employees, so there can be a lot of advantages to job hopping every couple years. OTOH, in the public sector, pensions are a big deal, pay scales are typically legislated and/or bargained and, along with advancement opportunities, are influenced by years of service in the organization. When a job hop resets the clock on your pension and raises, there can be a pretty strong incentive to stay put.

One of those two articles also said that the FBI requires new hires to relocate, which may not be a big deal for young recruits, but is going to be a bigger deterrent for someone a bit older.

 

[Larniavc]

Which university is this that you're referring to?

In the UK it is very rare that you go to a university anywhere near where you live. For example I grew up near Oxford but went to University and London, Plymouth and Liverpool.

Do Americans really stay in the same state when they go to uni? If that is the case it might explain a lot.

 

[iluvatar5150]

Do Americans really stay in the same state when they go to uni? If that is the case it might explain a lot.

It depends, but it’s pretty common because there are usually financial incentives for doing so. Most public universities have some kind of mandate to serve the residents of that state and have certain programs to attract them like cheaper in-state tuition rates, more scholarships, and admission preference. There are usually fewer of these incentives at private schools.

That said, going in-state != living at home or even in the same city and I think you’re more correct than Rob, though again, it depends on exactly what type of school you’re talking about. My experiences at low end schools that cater to commuters and adult students mirrored that of Rob’s. My wife works at elite private institutions (which means we also live near them) and it’s anything but that.

 

[DaisyDay]

In the UK it is very rare that you go to a university anywhere near where you live. For example I grew up near Oxford but went to University and London, Plymouth and Liverpool.

Do Americans really stay in the same state when they go to uni? If that is the case it might explain a lot.

Many state universities (e.g. University of California, State University of New York) have excellent programs and a very reduced rate for state residents.

 

[essentialsaltes]

In the UK it is very rare that you go to a university anywhere near where you live. For example I grew up near Oxford but went to University and London, Plymouth and Liverpool.

Do Americans really stay in the same state when they go to uni? If that is the case it might explain a lot.

Iluvatar's given a great answer. Some of it may also be a matter of scale (depending on the state). My move from Orange County California to UCLA is almost the same as the distance from London to Oxford.

If I had gone to UC Berkeley instead, that would be like the distance from London to the Shetlands.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

In the UK it is very rare that you go to a university anywhere near where you live. For example I grew up near Oxford but went to University and London, Plymouth and Liverpool.

Do Americans really stay in the same state when they go to uni? If that is the case it might explain a lot.

according to the NCES stats, yes, about 80% go to "in-state" universities.

Primarily because there's a cost incentive for doing so and two different sets of tuition rates.

Most American universities will list an "in-state" tuition price, and an "out of state" tuition price.

Plus, there's also the "ability to commute" factor (which allows student to save money by not having to pay to stay in a dorm)

 

[Larniavc]

If I had gone to UC Berkeley instead, that would be like the distance from London to the Shetlands.

Crikey. I sometimes forget how big the US is. When I moved from Plymouth to Liverpool (a few hours drive) the Liverpudlian accent was nearly incomprehensible to me until I dialled into it.

 

[Larniavc]

according to the NCES stats, yes, about 80% go to "in-state" universities.

Primarily because there's a cost incentive for doing so and two different sets of tuition rates.

Most American universities will list an "in-state" tuition price, and an "out of state" tuition price.

Plus, there's also the "ability to commute" factor (which allows student to save money by not having to pay to stay in a dorm)

Crikey. Very different to over here. A big part of uni is getting away from where you grew up.

 

[iluvatar5150]

Crikey. Very different to over here. A big part of uni is getting away from where you grew up.

Again, going in-state != staying in town. I don’t have any official data, but I suspect it’s a minority of traditional undergrads who stay in town and mainly only those at the least selective schools. I say that not to be snobby (after all, that describes my education), but rather just as an observation of the logistics of attending school full time. Unless you live within, say, an hour’s drive of your preferred school, you can’t reasonably commute every day and, thus, would have to relocate. Additionally, many schools have rules requiring full-time freshman to live on campus. I doubt the difference is as big as you’re imagining it to be.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Again, going in-state != staying in town. I don’t have any official data, but I suspect it’s a minority of traditional undergrads who stay in town and mainly only those at the least selective schools. I say that not to be snobby (after all, that describes my education), but rather just as an observation of the logistics of attending school full time. Unless you live within, say, an hour’s drive of your preferred school, you can’t reasonably commute every day and, thus, would have to relocate. Additionally, many schools have rules requiring full-time freshman to live on campus. I doubt the difference is as big as you’re imagining it to be.

But with regards to university becoming an "eye opening experience" (culturally speaking -- which is what the other posted was mentioning about their university experience in the country where they're at) if the college is in a different city in the same state, it's not exactly the "horizon broadening" experience for most who go.

For the rich kids going to the more expensive private schools, they're hanging with a campus full of the same kinds of kids they hung out with at their private high schools.

And for the kids going to the public universities, it's not as if there's this immense amount of diversity they're going to experience at the OSU campus in Columbus that they didn't encounter in the Akron/Canton/Cleveland/Cincinnati/Dayton/Toledo areas.


And with regards to the "really local" college attendance you were talking about, it's actually higher than you'd think, apart from the in-state rate being 80%...

Per the US Department of Education in conjunction with Brookings:
A 2012 analysis found about 57% of undergraduates attended an institution within 50 miles of their permanent home address.


And per the Brookings 2016 write up on it:

Over half are not only stating in state, they're staying within 20 miles of their homestead. (with the exception of ones going to private schools, but even half of them are staying fairly local)

So it seems to be trending more in the direction of kids staying really close to home. -- which makes sense given the increasing costs, many are opting for the "mom & dad safety net"