Ezra 6:14

[Douggg]

Ezra 6:14 has this challenging statement..

14 And the elders of the Jews builded, and they prospered through the prophesying of Haggai the prophet and Zechariah the son of Iddo. And they builded, and finished it, according to the commandment of the God of Israel, and according to the commandment of Cyrus, and Darius, and Artaxerxes king of Persia.

... those three Persian kings. How it fits together is the challenge.

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I have been doing some research to try and understand Ezra 4, 5, 6, - chapters which are about the opposition the Jews encountered when they came back and started rebuilding the temple.

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A quick narrative by me is that the Jews returned and started building the temple according to Cyrus's 537 bc decree. But some of the regional powers were against it and sent a letter to Dariius II (also known as Artaxerxes. Artaxerxes is a general title, like Pharaoh is for the ruler of Egypt.)

So,there are not actually 3 separate kings, in Ezra 6:14, but only 2 kings - with one of them, Darius II, also being known as Artaxerxes. The other king being Cyrus.

Darius II (Artaxerxes) said he would look into it, if the Jews really had permission from Cyrus who ruled right before him. For the meantime, Darius issued a restraining order for the Jews to suspend building. No work was done until the second year of Darius II reign, while Darius researched the records. (Ezra 4:23-24)

And in Chapter 5, Darius II ( the Great) who searched the records, and Darius II found that Cyrus had indeed instructed the Jews to go back and build the temple So in Chapter 6,the restraining order was lifted. And the Jews, worked on the temple and finished in the sixth year of Darius II's reign.

Ironically to the objectioners - Darius II also ordered them to help pay for the rebuilding from the taxes he levied on them.

Anyway, here is my chart. You may have to click on it to open it automatically in another window zoomed in. There is Cyrus, Artaxerxes, Darius II on the chart, one right after the other, the three Persian kings in Ezra 6:14. Note: the chart is a work in progress. I have some things to work on the right hand side, and the 7wks- 49 years.

Note: please go to my latest post(s) in this thread - as the chart is a work in progress and I am refining it as I go.

 

[PesachPup]

Ezra 6:14 has this challenging statement..

14 And the elders of the Jews builded, and they prospered through the prophesying of Haggai the prophet and Zechariah the son of Iddo. And they builded, and finished it, according to the commandment of the God of Israel, and according to the commandment of Cyrus, and Darius, and Artaxerxes king of Persia.

... those three Persian kings. How it fits together is the challenge.

------------------------------------------------------------------

I have been doing some research to try and understand Ezra 4, 5, 6, - chapters which are about the opposition the Jews encountered when they came back and started rebuilding the temple.

With the help of a "The Book" thought-for-thought translation in modern English, version of the Living Bible, that I have had since 1979 (45 years old), I think I have finally got it so I cant put it all on a chart.

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A quick narrative by me is that the Jews returned and started building the temple according to Cyrus's 537 bc decree. But some of the regional powers were against it and sent a letter to Artaxerxes (a name which Cambyses II went by)... saying it would be a threat to his throne.

Artaxerxes said he would look into it, if the Jews really had permission from Cyrus who ruled right before him, dying in 530 bc. Artaxerxes put a temporary restraining order on the Jews.

Meanwhile, Artaxerxes himself then died in 522 bc. And in Chapter 5, the focus turns to Darius II ( the Great) who searched the records and Darius II found that Cyrus had indeed instructed the Jews to go back and build the temple So in Chapter 6,the restraining order was lifted. And the Jews, worked on the temple and finished in the sixth year of Darius II's reign.

Ironically to the objectioners - Darius II also ordered them to help pay for the rebuilding from the taxes he levied on them.

Anyway, here is my chart. You may have to click on it to open it automatically in another window zoomed in. There is Cyrus, Artaxerxes, Darius II on the chart, one right after the other, the three Persian kings in Ezra 6:14.

Greetings Doug.

You need to make some tweaks to your chart and how you understand things. Let's start with the focus of Ezra 6. It's focus is the building of the temple, according to the decrees of Cyrus, Darius [and/even] Artaxerxes. Go to the following website to help you understand that the decrees to build (not hinder) build the temple were those of Cyrus and Darius, [even] Artaxerxes were the contributors to starting and finishing the building of the temple...finished in the 6th year of Darius, who is even Artaxerxes. Cyrus initiated the plans and they were complete by the decree of Cyrus. No others (Persian kings) were instrumentation in supporting its construction, completed in 516 BC, the 6th year of Darius' reign that began in 522 BC.

Darius is Artaxerxes

Darius of Ezra 6 and Artaxerxes of Ezra 7 are the same king removing the need for an 80-year chronological gap in the Bible

creation.com

REFER to Nehemiah 12 to see that the grandson of Jeshua, [and great grandson of Jehozadak] was Eliashib, who was the high priest who helped Nehemiah build the wall in the 20th year of Artaxerxes, even until the 32nd year of Artaxerxes [490 BC=32 years after 522 BC, when Darius began to reign].
Moving on, we see that [in the 1st year of] Cyrus captured Babylon and set the captive Jews free in 539/538 BC. This is also when he gave the decree to build the temple, in his 1st year. We don't know the exact month of this decree, but it came 49 years after the time that. Nebuchadnezzar began his seige of Jerusalem (cf Eze 24) on the 10thofTevet in the 9th year of Zedekiah, or at the very beginning days of 587 BC [587-538=49 yrs]. From this we know that the reign of Zedekiah began in the early portions of 596 BC. And his 11th year ended in the 5th month of 586 BC. Jehoiachin's 3 month reign ended in early 596 BC. Thus, the 11th year of Jehoiakim's reign ended in late 597 BC [and began in 607 BC]. This also means that the last of Josiah's 31 years ended in 607 BC, from 538 BC.
With all that in mind, let us now begin to tweak your chart. The captivity the Jews and the desolations of Jerusalem (cf Jer 25) began in the 3rd year of Jehoiakim in 605 BC [2 plus years after the start of his reign in 607 BC], when Daniel and the vessels of the house of God were taken to Babylon, Dan 1:2ff. Cyrus' decree freed both the captives and vessels to return to Jerusalem in the 67th year of Daniel's captivity.
This is also the same year that Ezra returned to Babylon in the 7th year of Artaxerxes, in the 5th month. He began his journey in the 1st month, shortly after the temple was competed in the 12th month, in the 6th year of Darius, even Artaxerxes. THIS EZRA, according to Ezra 7, made his return trip (with many others) from the 1st to the 5th month. THIS EZRA, according to the detailed genealogy of Ezra 7, and 1Chr 6, was the brother of Jehozadak, and fellow son of Seraiah who was slain in the preceding month before the temple was burned in 586 BC. According to Jer. 52, the 4th and 5th months of 586 BC transitioned from the 18th to the 19th year of Nebuchadnezzar. Nebu began his reign in the 5th month of the year (according to the Babylonian Chronicles) when his father died. His coronation, but not his official reign, began the next (6th) month. This means that the 19th year of Nebu began in that 5th month of 586 BC, and thus his 1st year was 604 BC. That year (Nebu's 1st) was also the 4th of Jehoiakim, according to Jer. 25. That is in complete agreement with the reign of Jehoiakim having begun in 607 BC, prior to the 5th month of that year.
Continuing on, we read that the wall was completed in [even] Artaxerxes' 20th year, 13 years after Ezra returned to Jerusalem. This would have been in 503/502 BC, NOT sometime later in the middle of the 5th century BC, approx 440/450 bc. This would be in accord with Dan 9 that says that the wall would be completed in periloustimes during the initial 7 weeks of the 70 week prophecy. Those 7 weeks began in 539/8 BC when Cyrus issued his decree to returnand rebuild. And they would end in 490/489 Bc. I would contend that these 49 years ended, according to Nehemiah, in the 32nd year of Artaxerxes [from the beginning of his reign in 522 BC].
Be Blessed,
The PuP.

View attachment 336893

 

[Douggg]

You need to make some tweaks to your chart and how you understand things. Let's start with the focus of Ezra 6. It's focus is the building of the temple, according to the decrees of Cyrus, Darius [and/even] Artaxerxes

Hi PeaschPup, thanks for your post. Yes, my chart may need to tweaked. Because the mystery to me was who is Artaxeres. I was reading from the The Way translation - thought for thought - and had Artaxerses in chapter 4, but did not mentioned that Darius II was himself Artaxeres.

If I follow you correct, you are saying Darius [known as Artaxerxes as well]

I will have to think about a little bit.

 

[Douggg]

@PesachPup

From Rashi's comment at the Chabad.org, online Tanach. He says that Artaxerxes is like a general title, like Pharaoh. So that makes some sense if Darius II was known as Artaxerxes.

"and Artaxerxes: He is Darius, but he was called Artaxerxes because of the province and the kingdom, for all kings of Persia were thus named just as all the kings of Egypt were called Pharaoh."

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What do you have for the dates that Darius II ruled. I am getting 522-486 BC.

I went back and tweaked my chart and narrative in the opening post.

 

[Douggg]

With all that in mind, let us now begin to tweak your chart. The captivity the Jews and the desolations of Jerusalem (cf Jer 25) began in the 3rd year of Jehoiakim in 605 BC [2 plus years after the start of his reign in 607 BC],

605 BC is pretty much fixed as when Jeremiah 25 was given - about the 70 years.

So instead of saying adding 2 years prior to the prophecy, to come up with 607, go to the other end, and add the 2 years there.

The time span from 605-537 the Cyrus degree would be 68 years. So tack on another 2 years for the Jews to put their houses in order in Babylon, prepare for the move, and then do the actual journey back to Judah. So 605-535 would be 70 years.

 

[Douggg]

Continuing on, we read that the wall was completed in [even] Artaxerxes' 20th year, 13 years after Ezra returned to Jerusalem. This would have been in 503/502 BC, NOT sometime later in the middle of the 5th century BC, approx 440/450 bc

What verse are you reading that the wall was completed in Darius II (Artaxerxes) 20th year ? The 20th year of Darius II (Artaxeres) in December is when Nehemiah got word from one of his fellow Jews that the wall was still torn down. Nehemiah 1:1-2.

In Nehemiah 2:1-16, that following April, Nehemiah was allowed by Darius II (Artaxerxes) to go back to Jerusalem to start rebuilding the wall, in Nehemiah 1:1

Note:
The book of Ezra was about rebuilding the temple.
The book of Nehemiah was about rebuilding the wall


I tweaked my chart to show the Nehemiah return year - 502

 

[PesachPup]

@PesachPup

From Rashi's comment at the Chabad.org, online Tanach. He says that Artaxerxes is like a general title, like Pharaoh. So that makes some sense if Darius II was known as Artaxerxes.

"and Artaxerxes: He is Darius, but he was called Artaxerxes because of the province and the kingdom, for all kings of Persia were thus named just as all the kings of Egypt were called Pharaoh."

--------------------------------------------

What do you have for the dates that Darius II ruled. I am getting 522-486 BC.

I went back and tweaked my chart and narrative in the opening post.

@PesachPup

From Rashi's comment at the Chabad.org, online Tanach. He says that Artaxerxes is like a general title, like Pharaoh. So that makes some sense if Darius II was known as Artaxerxes.

"and Artaxerxes: He is Darius, but he was called Artaxerxes because of the province and the kingdom, for all kings of Persia were thus named just as all the kings of Egypt were called Pharaoh."

--------------------------------------------

What do you have for the dates that Darius II ruled. I am getting 522-486 BC.

I went back and tweaked my chart and narrative in the opening post.

You need to make some tweaks to your chart and how you understand things. Let's start with the focus of Ezra 6. It's focus is the building of the temple, according to the decrees of Cyrus, Darius [and/even] Artaxerxes. Go to the following website to help you understand that the decrees to build (not hinder) build the temple were those of Cyrus and Darius, [even] Artaxerxes were the contributors to starting and finishing the building of the temple...finished in the 6th year of Darius, who is even Artaxerxes. Cyrus initiated the plans and they were complete by the decree of Cyrus. No others (Persian kings) were instrumentation in supporting its construction, completed in 516 BC, the 6th year of Darius' reign that began in 522 BC.

Darius is Artaxerxes

Darius of Ezra 6 and Artaxerxes of Ezra 7 are the same king removing the need for an 80-year chronological gap in the Bible

creation.com

REFER to Nehemiah 12 to see that the grandson of Jeshua, [and great grandson of Jehozadak] was Eliashib, who was the high priest who helped Nehemiah build the wall in the 20th year of Artaxerxes, even until the 32nd year of Artaxerxes [490 BC=32 years after 522 BC, when Darius began to reign].
Moving on, we see that [in the 1st year of] Cyrus captured Babylon and set the captive Jews free in 539/538 BC. This is also when he gave the decree to build the temple, in his 1st year. We don't know the exact month of this decree, but it came 49 years after the time that. Nebuchadnezzar began his seige of Jerusalem (cf Eze 24) on the 10thofTevet in the 9th year of Zedekiah, or at the very beginning days of 587 BC [587-538=49 yrs]. From this we know that the reign of Zedekiah began in the early portions of 596 BC. And his 11th year ended in the 5th month of 586 BC. Jehoiachin's 3 month reign ended in early 596 BC. Thus, the 11th year of Jehoiakim's reign ended in late 597 BC [and began in 607 BC]. This also means that the last of Josiah's 31 years ended in 607 BC, from 538 BC.
With all that in mind, let us now begin to tweak your chart. The captivity the Jews and the desolations of Jerusalem (cf Jer 25) began in the 3rd year of Jehoiakim in 605 BC [2 plus years after the start of his reign in 607 BC], when Daniel and the vessels of the house of God were taken to Babylon, Dan 1:2ff. Cyrus' decree freed both the captives and vessels to return to Jerusalem in the 67th year of Daniel's captivity.
This is also the same year that Ezra returned to Babylon in the 7th year of Artaxerxes, in the 5th month. He began his journey in the 1st month, shortly after the temple was competed in the 12th month, in the 6th year of Darius, even Artaxerxes. THIS EZRA, according to Ezra 7, made his return trip (with many others) from the 1st to the 5th month. THIS EZRA, according to the detailed genealogy of Ezra 7, and 1Chr 6, was the brother of Jehozadak, and fellow son of Seraiah who was slain in the preceding month before the temple was burned in 586 BC. According to Jer. 52, the 4th and 5th months of 586 BC transitioned from the 18th to the 19th year of Nebuchadnezzar. Nebu began his reign in the 5th month of the year (according to the Babylonian Chronicles) when his father died. His coronation, but not his official reign, began the next (6th) month. This means that the 19th year of Nebu began in that 5th month of 586 BC, and thus his 1st year was 604 BC. That year (Nebu's 1st) was also the 4th of Jehoiakim, according to Jer. 25. That is in complete agreement with the reign of Jehoiakim having begun in 607 BC, prior to the 5th month of that year.
Continuing on, we read that the wall was completed in [even] Artaxerxes' 20th year, 13 years after Ezra returned to Jerusalem. This would have been in 503/502 BC, NOT sometime later in the middle of the 5th century BC, approx 440/450 bc. This would be in accord with Dan 9 that says that the wall would be completed in periloustimes during the initial 7 weeks of the 70 week prophecy. Those 7 weeks began in 539/8 BC when Cyrus issued his decree to returnand rebuild. And they would end in 490/489 Bc. I would contend that these 49 years ended, according to Nehemiah, in the 32nd year of Artaxerxes [from the beginning of his reign in 522 BC].
Be Blessed,
The PuP.

Yes, 522-486 are the 36 years of Darius' reign, with the temple being completed in 516 BC, being only the 23rd year since the decree of Cyrus, and only about 14 years after the death/end of Cyrus' reign in 530 BC. Here is the issue that I want you (and others) to see. The work on the temple was re-started in the 2nd yr of Darius. Hindrance to the work on the temple began even while Cyrus was still reigning. There was no Persian king supportive/aided the temple work until Darius' 2nd year. And it was completed in his 6th year, i.e., no other king supported the work on the temple prior to its completion in 516 BC.

Ezr 4:5 KJV And hired counsellors against them, to frustrate their purpose, all the days of Cyrus king of Persia, even until the reign of Darius king of Persia.

Now, turning back to Ezra 6, [concerning the time and effort of rebuilding the temple] we see what is written in verse 14:

Ezr 6:14 KJV And the elders of the Jews builded, and they prospered through the prophesying of Haggai the prophet and Zechariah the son of Iddo. And they builded, and finished it, according to the commandment of the God of Israel, and according to the commandment of Cyrus, and Darius, and Artaxerxes king of Persia.

[EDIT TO ADD THE FOLLOWING:

Yet, there is a king called/named Artaxerxes, who's reign came after Cyrus and before the 2nd year of Darius when the work resumed. He was even after Ahaseurus. Read Ezra 4:16-24...

Ezr 4:6-11 KJV 6 And in the reign of Ahasuerus, in the beginning of his reign, wrote they unto him an accusation against the inhabitants of Judah and Jerusalem. 7 And in the days of Artaxerxes wrote Bishlam, Mithredath, Tabeel, and the rest of their companions, unto Artaxerxes king of Persia; and the writing of the letter was written in the Syrian tongue, and interpreted in the Syrian tongue. 8 Rehum the chancellor and Shimshai the scribe wrote a letter against Jerusalem to Artaxerxes the king in this sort: 9 Then wrote Rehum the chancellor, and Shimshai the scribe, and the rest of their companions; the Dinaites, the Apharsathchites, the Tarpelites, the Apharsites, the Archevites, the Babylonians, the Susanchites, the Dehavites, and the Elamites, 10 And the rest of the nations whom the great and noble Asnappar brought over, and set in the cities of Samaria, and the rest that are on this side the river, and at such a time. 11 This is the copy of the letter that they sent unto him, even unto Artaxerxes the king; Thy servants the men on this side the river, and at such a time...
Ezr 4:23-24 KJV 23 Now when the copy of king Artaxerxes' letter was read before Rehum, and Shimshai the scribe, and their companions, they went up in haste to Jerusalem unto the Jews, and made them to cease by force and power. 24 Then ceased the work of the house of God which is at Jerusalem. So it ceased unto the second year of the reign of Darius king of Persia.

THIS Artaxerxes, was antagonistic to the work of the temple. Who was this Artaxerxes? According to Ezra, his time immediately preceded the 2nd year of Darius. It equivocates the 1st two years of Artaxerxes to being that of the reign of Darius, until he took matters into his own hand. END OF EDIT]

Did you see it? There were only two Persian kings who supported the work on the temple...Cyrus and Darius. There was no "third" king named Artaxerxes, in-between Cyrus and Darius, nor after Darius, [because it was finished in his 6th year] who supported work on the temple! Darius is EVEN Artaxerxes.
"THIS EZRA" , born sometime prior to 586 BC when his father [Seraiah] was killed by Nebuzaradan, because of his potential age, would mostly likely be dead by the middle of the 5th century BC, circa 450-ish.

Be Blessed
The PuP

 

[PesachPup]

What verse are you reading that the wall was completed in Darius II (Artaxerxes) 20th year ?

Neh 2:1-13 KJV 1 And it came to pass in the month Nisan, in the twentieth year of Artaxerxes the king, that wine was before him: and I took up the wine, and gave it unto the king. Now I had not been beforetime sad in his presence. 2 Wherefore the king said unto me, Why is thy countenance sad, seeing thou art not sick? this is nothing else but sorrow of heart. Then I was very sore afraid, 3 And said unto the king, Let the king live for ever: why should not my countenance be sad, when the city, the place of my fathers' sepulchres, lieth waste, and the gates thereof are consumed with fire? 4 Then the king said unto me, For what dost thou make request? So I prayed to the God of heaven. 5 And I said unto the king, If it please the king, and if thy servant have found favour in thy sight, that thou wouldest send me unto Judah, unto the city of my fathers' sepulchres, that I may build it. 6 And the king said unto me, (the queen also sitting by him,) For how long shall thy journey be? and when wilt thou return? So it pleased the king to send me; and I set him a time. 7 Moreover I said unto the king, If it please the king, let letters be given me to the governors beyond the river, that they may convey me over till I come into Judah; 8 And a letter unto Asaph the keeper of the king's forest, that he may give me timber to make beams for the gates of the palace which appertained to the house, and for the wall of the city, and for the house that I shall enter into. And the king granted me, according to the good hand of my God upon me. 9 Then I came to the governors beyond the river, and gave them the king's letters. Now the king had sent captains of the army and horsemen with me. 10 When Sanballat the Horonite, and Tobiah the servant, the Ammonite, heard of it, it grieved them exceedingly that there was come a man to seek the welfare of the children of Israel. 11 So I came to Jerusalem, and was there three days. 12 And I arose in the night, I and some few men with me; neither told I any man what my God had put in my heart to do at Jerusalem: neither was there any beast with me, save the beast that I rode upon.

13 And I went out by night by the gate of the valley, even before the dragon well, and to the dung port, and viewed the walls of Jerusalem, which were broken down, and the gates thereof were consumed with fire.

Neh 5:14-16 KJV 14 Moreover from the time that I was appointed to be their governor in the land of Judah, from the twentieth year even unto the two and thirtieth year of Artaxerxes the king, that is, twelve years, I and my brethren have not eaten the bread of the governor. 15 But the former governors that had been before me were chargeable unto the people, and had taken of them bread and wine, beside forty shekels of silver; yea, even their servants bare rule over the people: but so did not I, because of the fear of God. 16 Yea, also I continued in the work of this wall, neither bought we any land: and all my servants were gathered thither unto the work.

Though the explicit reason [edit to add: IS NOT STATED] for Nehemiah's appointment to be the governor IN THE 20TH YEAR OF ARTAXERXES, it is implicitly understood to be because of his speedy work in getting the job done in only 52 days.

Neh 6:15 KJV So the wall was finished in the twenty and fifth day of the month Elul, in fifty and two days.

Be Blessed
The PuP

 

[Douggg]

Though the explicit reason [edit to add: IS NOT STATED] for Nehemiah's appointment to be the governor IN THE 20TH YEAR OF ARTAXERXES, it is implicitly understood to be because of his speedy work in getting the job done in only 52 days.

Neh 6:15 KJV So the wall was finished in the twenty and fifth day of the month Elul, in fifty and two days.

Okay, I tweaked my chart that the wall was finished in 502 BC - do agree with that year ?

 

[Douggg]

Here is the issue that I want you (and others) to see. The work on the temple was re-started in the 2nd yr of Darius. Hindrance to the work on the temple began even while Cyrus was still reigning. There was no Persian king supportive/aided the temple work until Darius' 2nd year. And it was completed in his 6th year, i.e., no other king supported the work on the temple prior to its completion in 516 BC.

I went back to my opening post and noted that work was suspended until the 2nd year of Darius II reign, while he researched the records. Ezra 4:23-24.

 

[PesachPup]

Okay, I tweaked my chart that the wall was finished in 502 BC - do agree with that year ?



View attachment 336920

Yes. From Ezra's account (and Nehemiah beginning work on the wall early on in the 4th month) we see that the regnal time of Darius/Artaxerxes probably begins around the 4th or 5th month of 522 BC. Ezra 7 states that Ezra ARRIVED in Jerusalem in the 5th month of the 7th year of Artaxerxes.
It doesn't say that when Ezra left (in the 1st month) that Artaxerxes' 7th year had begun yet. Only that the 7th year had begun when he arrived. Add to that, that Nehemiah didn't waste much time before he started work (52 days before the 25th of Elul would be 2nd or 3rd day of the 4th month of Sivan) on the wall, AND that he left for Jerusalem in Artaxerxes' 20th year, [but it doesn't say what year of Artaxerxes reign It was when he completed the wall on the 25th day of the 5th month] allows us to conclude the reign of Darius begins in the 4th or 5th month of a year, namely 522 BC. Meaning that Nehemiah left for Babylon near the end of Artaxerxes' 20th year as king. His 20th year began in 503 BC and ended in 502 BC. [that is from a start date of 522 BC.]. Thanks for listening. .
Be Blessed
The PuP

Adding this. Reviewing things, I find in Nehemiah1 that it speaks of Nehemiah being in the court of the king in the 1st month, Nisan, in the 20th year of Artaxerxes. This further supports my premise the regnal years of Artaxerxes begin sometime after the 1st month, and confirms that Nehemiah went to Jerusalem in 502 BC.

 

[Douggg]

Ezra 7 states that Ezra ARRIVED in Jerusalem in the 5th month of the 7th year of Artaxerxes.

7th year of Darius II (Artaxerxes) would have been 522-7 = 515 BC. Sine the temple was completed in the 6th years of Darius Ii, the temple would have been completed in 516 BC.

Temple complete - 516 BC
Ezra, a priest, teacher of the law, arrived back in Jerusalem 515 BC.

So Ezra himself was not in Jerusalem to be a part of the temple building. But came right after it, in 515 BC, taking copies of the scriptures up to that time to teach the laws of God to the people, to be a Bible teacher. Darius II also gave Ezra some gold and silver for Temple use.

The wall construction is a separate issue, I think. That was something that Nehemiah became involved with in 502 BC . Ezra would have been in Jerusalem at that time of course.

Nehemiah chapters 1-6 is about the wall building, beginning and end.

Nehemiah chapter 7 documents in a register all the family clans and individuals who had returned from exile by King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon.

Nehemiah chapter 8-13 is about Ezra the priest, and Nehemiah the governor, teaching the people to obey God's laws.

 

[Douggg]

Thanks for listening. .

I think the chart has everything covered up to the rebuilding of the wall. Taking us to 502 BC.

Next chart, the 70 weeks of Daniel 9. Do you have an opinion on the beginning of the first 7 weeks, the beginning of it and the end ?

 

[PesachPup]

7th year of Darius II (Artaxerxes) would have been 522-7 = 515 BC. Sine the temple was completed in the 6th years of Darius Ii, the temple would have been completed in 516 BC.

Temple complete - 516 BC
Ezra, a priest, teacher of the law, arrived back in Jerusalem 515 BC.

So Ezra himself was not in Jerusalem to be a part of the temple building. But came right after it, in 515 BC, taking copies of the scriptures up to that time to teach the laws of God to the people, to be a Bible teacher. Darius II also gave Ezra some gold and silver for Temple use.

The wall construction is a separate issue, I think. That was something that Nehemiah became involved with in 502 BC . Ezra would have being in Jerusalem at that time of course.

Nehemiah chapters 1-6 is about the wall building, beginning and end.

Nehemiah chapter 7 documents in a register all the family clans and individuals who had returned from exile by King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon.

Nehemiah chapter 8-13 is about Ezra the priest, and Nehemiah the governor, teaching the people to obey God's laws.

Just a brief comment here. When scripture speaks of the Nth year, in this case , the 6th [and 7th years] of Artaxerxes, it means that a period of time has elapsed equal to somewhere between 5 years and 1 day UPTO 1 day shy of 6 years. So, IF the regnal year of begins in the 5th month of the year, it could be said that Ezra left for Jerusalem in the 1st month of the 6th year of Artaxerxes...just a matter of days after the temple was completed in the 12th month [ADAR] of 516 BC. Ezra left for Jerusalem in Nisan of 516 BC, and arrived 4 months later, approximately August of 516, in the first months of the 7th year of Artaxerxes.
Be Blessed
The PuP

 

[PesachPup]

I think the chart has everything covered up to the rebuilding of the wall. Taking us to 502 BC.

Next chart, the 70 weeks of Daniel 9. Do you have an opinion on the beginning of the first 7 weeks, the beginning of it and the end ?

I do, but I'm not sure you are fully prepared to hear it. But I would say that you are more prepared than 99% of those who will read this. Understanding all that I have written to you in this thread, puts you in the 1%.

When Daniel was given the 70 week prophecy in the 1st year of Darius the Mede, [539 or 538], Daniel confessed that his people had not repented for their transgressions against the LORD. Remember when I reference Eze 24? That was when the God-ordained siege by Nebu began on the 10th of Tevet (Jan 2, 587 BC] , God said that he would make no further attempt to PURGE Israel of her sins until he uses the full thrust of his wrath to "rid her of her scum", with success being the end result. FYI, Israel's scum of sin remains unto this day.
From that day, 10th of Tevet, 587 BC until the 1st year of Darius, (we don't know precisely how much time) in 539 or 538 BC was 49 years, give or take a few months. Their sin (refusal to repent of God'sjudgment upon them) was a sin separate and independent for the basis of the judgment itself, the siege and destruction of Jerusalem...which was for the failure to keep the Sinai Covenant. What is the pre-eminent basis for the Sinai Covenant? It was that God would dwell among his people, via the tabernacle and ultimately the temple. Reading further on into Eze 24, we see that God is going to "...take away the desire of their eyes...their sanctuary". Repentance is an essential component to worshipping God 'with a pure heart. This "independent sin" of the last 49 years, has an initial response from God...a 49 year punishment. Whereas, the prophecy of the 70 sevens, is in accordance with the sevenfold punishment found in Leviticus 26. According to Jeremiah, the 70 years of desolation and exile, was the basis of their then current state of affairs dwelling in Babylon. It was upon "them and thy city, Jerusalem". But now it would be for 490 years, 70 X 7. The 7 week (49 year) punishment would be immediately enforced, starting with the decree of Cyrus, and encompassing the rebuilding of the wall in periloustimes. It ended in the 32nd year of Artaxerxes, 49 years after Cyrus' decree, in 490 BC.
To me, that is when the prophecy of the 70 sevens is fully set in motion. Remember that it has a basis of a sevenfold punishment to bring a restoration of the true worship of the LORD GOD. 69 weeks then culminated in the birth of the Messiahprince in 7 BC, [490 - 483]. What comes AFTER THAT (the birth ofJesus) is the cutting off of the Messiah, a prince shall come and destroy the city and the sanctuary. All of these things are foretold to happen...before Gabriel explains what happens during the 70th week...a Covenant is confirmed with many for the last week [et al] in Daniel 9:27.

I know this is not what you have ever heard before, but this is what I believe. I could say more, but I won't. I will try to answer any question that you might have.

Be Blessed
The PuP

 

[Douggg]

But now it would be for 490 years, 70 X 7. The 7 week (49 year) punishment would be immediately enforced, starting with the decree of Cyrus, and encompassing the rebuilding of the wall in periloustimes. It ended in the 32nd year of Artaxerxes, 49 years after Cyrus' decree, in 490 BC.

Hi PuP,

I have Cyrus's degree in 538/537 minus 49 years would be 489/488. Slightly different than your value of 490 BC.

But that difference is not the question in my mind. The question is not mathematically when the 49 years ended - but what event took place to end the 49 years ?

What I am thinking is maybe not a specific event, but because it also says the street(s) will be rebuilt as well - what is meant by the 49 years complete - is when all of the rebuilding of Jerusalem, the houses, the shops, etc. will have been completed.

So I think I am going to go with that for now. i.e 49 years to completely rebuild/restore all of Jerusalem.

Then next is to figure out what began the 62 week period. That will take a new chart. This one is kinda full.

 

[Douggg]

To me, that is when the prophecy of the 70 sevens is fully set in motion. Remember that it has a basis of a sevenfold punishment to bring a restoration of the true worship of the LORD GOD. 69 weeks then culminated in the birth of the Messiahprince in 7 BC, [490 - 483].

PuP, it is 7 weeks - which you take to have ended in 490 BC. Then another 62 weeks, i.e. 434 years to messiah. So, 490 BC-434 years would be 56 BC.

Since the messiah did not come in 56 BC, there must be a gap between the end of the 7 weeks and the beginning of the 62 weeks.

 

[PesachPup]

Hi PuP,

I have Cyrus's degree in 538/537 minus 49 years would be 489/488. Slightly different than your value of 490 BC.

But that difference is not the question in my mind. The question is not mathematically when the 49 years ended - but what event took place to end the 49 years ?

What I am thinking is maybe not a specific event, but because it also says the street(s) will be rebuilt as well - what is meant by the 49 years complete - is when all of the rebuilding of Jerusalem, the houses, the shops, etc. will have been completed.

So I think I am going to go with that for now. i.e 49 years to completely rebuild/restore all of Jerusalem.

Then next is to figure out what began the 62 week period. That will take a new chart. This one is kinda full.


View attachment 337091

Most scholars date Oct/Nov 539 as the time that Cyrus conquered Babylon, i.e a landmark event. More than once, the Bible labels Cyrus's decree to liberate the Jews as the "first year of Cyrus". Ezra 5:13 equates that liberation to him being the king of Babylon, in his first year.

Ezr 5:13 KJV But in the first year of Cyrus the king of Babylon the same king Cyrus made a decree to build this house of God.

This makes the 1st year of Cyrus to be 539/538. How do you arrive at 538/537?

The PuP

 

[Douggg]

Most scholars date Oct/Nov 539 as the time that Cyrus conquered Babylon, i.e a landmark event. More than once, the Bible labels Cyrus's decree to liberate the Jews as the "first year of Cyrus". Ezra 5:13 equates that liberation to him being the king of Babylon, in his first year.

Ezr 5:13 KJV But in the first year of Cyrus the king of Babylon the same king Cyrus made a decree to build this house of God.

This makes the 1st year of Cyrus to be 539/538. How do you arrive at 538/537?

The PuP

I think the Medes and the Persians were an alliance. Darius the Mede in Daniel 9:1 was the first of that alliance to rule over Babylon.

I got this table from Uri Yosef over at Messiah Truth countermissionary site, of Persian and Median rulers who ruled over Babylon. He shows Darius the Mede, as Cyrus's father-in-law. But it also says he ruled over Babylon less than 1 year.

Uri does shows Cyrus's rule also in 539. Which would correspond to Oct/Nov 539. If the decree was issued in Cyrus's first year, then that would be in 538. So included in this post, I made the adjustment to 538. And 49 years later to 489, that Jerusalem was completely restored.

 

[David Kent]

I think the Medes and the Persians were an alliance. Darius the Mede in Daniel 9:1 was the first of that alliance to rule over Babylon.

I got this table from Uri Yosef over at Messiah Truth countermissionary site, of Persian and Median rulers who ruled over Babylon. He shows Darius the Mede, as Cyrus's father-in-law. But it also says he ruled over Babylon less than 1 year.

Uri does shows Cyrus's rule also in 539. Which would correspond to Oct/Nov 539. If the decree was issued in Cyrus's first year, then that would be in 538. So included in this post, I made the adjustment to 538. And 49 years later to 489, that Jerusalem was completely restored.

View attachment 337115




View attachment 337116

Well I disagree with scholarly works as regarding Xerxes being the Ahasuerus in Esther. This king in Esther captured the islands after his 13th year, but Darius captured the islands and Xerxes lost them well before his 13th year.
And don't forget that Nehemiah returned with the first returnees under Zerubbabel after the proclamation of Cyrus.