Extra Ecclesia Nulla Salus

[Alonso_Castillo]

Thanks for the info

So to clarify does this mean that it is possible for there to be salvation outside the Catholic Church? If our sacraments are valid then doesn't that make them efficacious?

Its just that I've heard many Catholics say "There is no salvation outside the Church" *full stop* (except for "invincible ignorance" and stuff like that) which is why I was confused by this concept of valid sacraments outside the Church.

Sorry to be blunt, but, now you have a little knowledge that the Catholic Church teaches that Ouside her there is not salvation, I wonder what does it mean for you?, what does it compel to you?. I also wonder if you are east Europe descendant or if you are western Europe descndant and you just take the way to EO.

EOs and Catholics are working to meet again, and give a single gospel out of divisions, yet I see much more oposition in EOs than in Catholics to the merge.

 

[Gwendolyn]

Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus.

There is an "m" on the end because it is the accusative case.

The end.

 

[Andrew Ryan]

Your last post quoted popes from 1215-1441. I assume you failed to understand that these were issued prior to the Reformation when there was only one faith, Catholic, or none at all.

What part of I was just posting quotes and wasn't making any formal arguments yet or implying anything other than they seem pretty explicit in their meaning, is throwing you off? Seriously, I know when they were said and that they were said prior to the Reformation. I understand the basic gist of the VCII teaching on the matter, the arguments for it and am currently researching this. Stop talking down to me and insulting my intelligence, highly irritating.

I am puzzled why you were able to do the research to pull these quotes, but are handicapped with regard to researching the many articles that have explained the reason they do not apply to our present world. It occurs to me that you may have confined your research to radical traditionalist websites that are heretical and eager to tear down the Church, and I won't even name them here.

This is ridiculous, I have not confined my research to "radical," Traditionalist sites unless of course you think wikipedia, newadvent.org, churchfathers.org or catholicism.org are "radically," Traditionalist. Come on, I have already stated I am not familiar with the VCII teaching on the matter (though I do understand the gist of it and am reading up), I have said this from the begining and the ESSN doctrine in general, am just posting quotes from various sources and ones that I agree with. They seem fairly explicit even if written prior to the Reformation hence why I posted them because the quotes themselves don't leave much wiggle room so the VCII teachings on the doctrine seem sort of odd to me at first.

Possibly, too, you entered conversations on other forums and are merely repeating the quotes which are full of sophistry and lack of true application because these posters prefer to cling to their wrong understanding rather than submit to the Church's teaching in the second Vatican Council.

You assume to much and this is off putting and annoying (read: highly).

I saw no evidence of questions from you that gave a hint of your trying to learn

I haven't posted them yet and among my first posts in this thread I literally said I hope to learn quote "a thing or two," and see this whole thread as an opportunity to learn. Come off it.

Continue if you will, but the forum rules are specific. If you do not agree with them and wish others to believe EENS in its rigoristic application, then you oppose none of us, but the Church Herself. And, yes, that is reportable. Since this website is not exclusively Catholic and the likelihood of other visitors from the many faiths who post here are liable to obtain false information about the Catholic position, we are under a more strict obligation to post the truth and avoid scandalizing them, particularly with regard to this doctrine.

This is what is offensive, off putting and highly annoying, I can't even post freely or post quotes or state my current opinion or understanding of the doctrine without you trying to threaten to report me, say I'm doing this and that (when I'm not) and all of this other nonsense which really does nothing but turn me off and makes me want to tune out of the thread which if the subject matter wasn't as important as this, I most certainly would have by now. Oh, no, I posted quotes by Popes (Papal Bulls), Saints and Church Fathers and said they seem fairly explicit in their meaning. Stop reading into them and threatening me with being reported because I'm not instantaneously saying "oh, yesuh mam, I sho es in aruh, yesuh, sho enuff."

 

[St_Barnabus]

This is ridiculous, I have not confined my research to "radical," Traditionalist sites unless of course you think wikipedia, newadvent.org, churchfathers.org or catholicism.org are "radically," Traditionalist.

Well, my first log to Wikipedia was explicit about the Church's teachings, and having seen them explained in detail, I had no need to look at the other sites you mentioned. Maybe you prefer an "ala-carte" cafeteria style choice of what you believe, judging from the quotes you provided.

If you look at Qoheleth's post, he asked an honest question, a true seeker. I have seen none from you at all, so I am left with my conclusions. You made this statement here and followed it with a proliferation of quotes from antiquity to prove what you believe. Then you added several more quotes in two additonal posts, all of which need to be interpreted in light of current Magisterial understanding of these older documents.

I am unaware of this topic being "disallowed," or being a "hot button," topic but I am inclined to say yes, I do believe in this.

Since your own words indicated belief, you did not ask a single question, but yet you are playing the victim here as though I am picking on you. Your own words are all we have to base our opinion. Bottom line, I do not accept your disingenuousness. I called it as I saw it.

 

[Andrew Ryan]

Well, my first log to Wikipedia was explicit about the Church's teachings, and having seen them explained in detail, I had no need to look at the other sites you mentioned.

Honestly, this is getting pretty humerous at this point. I have seen the article, I know, again, you are not telling me anything I don't already know and further you can stop insulting my intelligence and trying to talk down to me at any point in time.

Maybe you prefer an "ala-carte" cafeteria style choice of what you believe, judging from the quotes you provided.

Again, another assumption on your part. No, I like to read multiple sources and absorb, process and move on from there. Again, you can stop with the assuming and the nonsense anytime time now.

Since your own words indicated belief, you did not ask a single question, but yet you are playing the victim here as though I am picking on you. Your own words are all we have to base our opinion. Bottom line, I do not accept your disingenuousness. I called it as I saw it.

I am not playing the victim more I have had it with you trying to talk down to me and making ridiculous assumptions about my person. It's absurd. I have been nothing but informal where this conversation/discussion has been concerned but yet, you are treating everything I am saying as a formal argument like I am taking a formal, hard-lined stance on the matter which I am not. Initially, coming into the topic, yes, I am inclined to say yes, I do believe in the historical ESSN teachings but I did not say I am not opposed to accepting the VCII teaching of the doctrine either and modifying my own views on the subject. No, I have not asked a single question yet because I am still reading and I am responding (for some reason) to your ridiculous and annoying posts.

 

[Rhamiel]

Thanks for the info

So to clarify does this mean that it is possible for there to be salvation outside the Catholic Church? If our sacraments are valid then doesn't that make them efficacious?

Its just that I've heard many Catholics say "There is no salvation outside the Church" *full stop* (except for "invincible ignorance" and stuff like that) which is why I was confused by this concept of valid sacraments outside the Church.

well the sacrements are real, but with Catholic understanding of mortal sin it would have many people condemned under the sin of Schism, and to really repent of the sin of Schism would lead people into communion with the Catholic Church
now there is invincible ignorance, and what that really means is not totally clear, it could be that 99% of all people who are christians and not in communion with Rome could be under some form of "invinsible ignorance"
it could be only people who never even heard of the Catholic Church or have some sort of mental problem making them not fully accountable for their own actions

 

[Rhamiel]

I am sorry if i have insulted anyone on this thread, i just feel that this is something that people take too lightly and might have over exagerated to get people thinking

schism and heresy are HORRIBLE sins, and God hates sin
and we just brush it off like it does not even matter

 

[benedictaoo]

Sorry to be blunt, but, now you have a little knowledge that the Catholic Church teaches that Ouside her there is not salvation, I wonder what does it mean for you?, what does it compel to you?. I also wonder if you are east Europe descendant or if you are western Europe descndant and you just take the way to EO.

EOs and Catholics are working to meet again, and give a single gospel out of divisions, yet I see much more oposition in EOs than in Catholics to the merge.

we teach that in a general sense as in its the Catholic faith that saves, but it is not understood that those who are not Catholic can not find salvation either. In ways only known to God, they can.

And the EO feel the same way.

and a Protestants baptism is "catholic" anyway so its not outside the Catholic faith.

You need to stop confusing the one and only faith that saves with people who may find salvation outside of it.

 

[Basil the Great]

we teach that in a general sense as in its the Catholic faith that saves, but it is not understood that those who are not Catholic can not find salvation either. In ways only known to God, they can.

And the EO feel the same way.

and a Protestants baptism is "catholic" anyway so its not outside the Catholic faith.

You need to stop confusing the one and only faith that saves with people who may find salvation outside of it.

benedictaoo - Your posts seem to usually be among my favorites on this board. Anyway, your statement about Protestant baptisms being "catholic" anyway reminds me of an EENS thread on an Ultra-Traditional Catholic message board that I found during my extensive EENS research. The consensus there was that up to the age of reason, Protestant babies and toddlers would be saved if they died, as they are for all intents and purposes, members of the Catholic Church through their valid baptism.

 

[benedictaoo]

Thank you Basil. and lets not forget the Divine Mercy private revelations given to Faustina.

That puts a twist on EENS too.

 

[benedictaoo]

and Protestants, any truth they have/teach all came from the Catholic Church anyway. Its what of the Catholic faith they did not toss out.

and they can find salvation by this truth becuase this truth is Jesus saves us from sin and death. Its just harder for them but they will be judge less harshly.

So indeed its only through the Catholic Church we find salvation, its through the Catholic Church these Potestest churches have their truth.

 

[Colin]

Honestly, this is getting pretty humerous at this point.

It sure is .

All the Roman Catholics and non-Roman Catholics in heaven must be rolling around the aisles in laughter on reading it ( that's if there are aisles in heaven , which I doubt ) .

 

[benedictaoo]

Everybody's Catholic in heaven rawson.

 

[St_Barnabus]

All the Roman Catholics and non-Roman Catholics in heaven must be rolling around the aisles in laughter on reading it

At mass this morning, the words of the first reading really spoke to me and seem related to your observation, Rawson.

Do not take away your mercy from us,
for the sake of Abraham, your beloved,
Isaac your servant, and Israel your holy one,
To whom you promised to multiply their offspring
like the stars of heaven,
or the sand on the shore of the sea.

Can we imagine how difficult it would be to count all the individual specks of sand in just a single cup of sand? How immensely infinite are the sands contained in a seashore! If heaven is populated with only Roman Catholics, it would certainly invalidate God's promise to Abraham.

 

[St_Barnabus]

"Invincible Ignorance" has been discussed in this thread a few times.
I came across a good reflection from Pope John Paul II that presents additional light for our consideration.

Certainly, the condition "inculpably ignorant" cannot be verified nor weighed by human evaluation, but must be left to the divine judgment alone. For this reason, the Council states in the Constitution Gaudium et Spes that in the heart of every man of good will, "Grace works in an unseen way. The Holy Spirit, in a manner known only to God, offers to every man the possibility of being associated with this paschal mystery" (GS 22).
　
The axiom [E.E.N.S.] means that for those who are NOT ignorant of the fact that the Church has been established as necessary by God through Jesus Christ, there is an obligation to enter the Church and remain in her in order to attain salvation (cf. LG 14).

For those, however, who have not received the Gospel proclamation, as I wrote in the Encyclical Redemptoris Missio, salvation is accessible in mysterious ways, inasmuch as divine grace is granted to them by virtue of Christ's redeeming sacrifice, without external membership in the Church, but nonetheless always in relation to her (cf. RM 10).

It is a mysterious relationship. It is mysterious for those who receive the grace, because they do not know the Church and sometimes even outwardly reject her. It is also mysterious in itself, because it is linked to the saving mystery of grace, which includes an essential reference to the Church the Savior founded.　

　

 

[D'Ann]

never mind... note to self... read thread completely before posting... lol

 

[D'Ann]

Not at all. Did you read CCC's #848 that I just posted.... it clearly stated that obligation. I perceive that your take on this is just to say the truth to whomever, and if they don't accept it immediately when they first hear it, they are doomed.

In the life of St. Elizabeth Seton, and many others who converted, this takes time and a lot of prayerful searching. She had a problem believing in the real presence. Her friend was patient and gradually guided her into truth. We cannot be "in your face" with God's truth, Alonso. Is this how you view yourself? You are giving Catholics a bad rap, and I wouldn't blame anyone for not entering the Church after reading your perspective.

Amen... St. Augustus also took a long time to enter the Catholic Church... His mother, St. Monica (?) died praying for him and it was after her death that he came to the Church... (if I'm wrong, forgive me... my memory is not working as well as it should lately... )

 

[eastcoast_bsc]

The Church did not stop Her development in ancient times, Rhamiel, but continues to be guided by the Holy Spirit into the fullness of truth. We cannot pull up first century documents and apply them to God's children in the 21st century.

For instance, there was no need to issue a document such as Humanae Vitae in these early centuries because artificial birth control methods were unknown to man. Advancements in medicine and technology have required the Church to discern and promulgate God's truth in present civilizations. It is always ongoing development. That is why those who reject the teachings of the last Council are not receiving the fullness of truth, but are frozen in a time capsule, whether through lack of knowledge or willful pride.

Truly, I am bone-weary of arguing. It is not my job to educate others; that belongs to the Church, the source of all truth. I have presented earlier in this thread, as has Ebia, the teaching excerpts of Vatican II found in the Catechism. If anyone REALLY is searching for truth, we need only listen carefully to today's gospel through which God speaks to us today. John 4:21-24

"Jesus said to her, "Believe me, woman, the hour is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. You people worship what you do not understand; we worship what we understand, because salvation is from the Jews.
But the hour is coming, and is now here, when true worshipers will worship the Father in Spirit and truth; and indeed the Father seeks such people to worship him.
God is Spirit, and those who worship him must worship in Spirit and truth."

Jesus said to her, "Believe me, woman, the hour is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. You people worship what you do not understand; we worship what we understand, because salvation is from the Jews.
But the hour is coming, and is now here, when true worshipers will worship the Father in Spirit and truth; and indeed the Father seeks such people to worship him.
God is Spirit, and those who worship him must worship in Spirit and truth."

The truth will set us free.


I am curious about those who use the word "Church" in sense that it is an entity or institution. Is not the "Church" the body of Christ, meaning those who follow Christ ?

 

[eastcoast_bsc]

"Invincible Ignorance" has been discussed in this thread a few times.
I came across a good reflection from Pope John Paul II that presents additional light for our consideration.


　

I would assume this applies to the many Catholics who left the "'Institutional" church because they felt it to be corrupted, i.e., Sex abuse scandals and continued cover-up, parish closings and pension scandals. The reason I mention this, is that I know many who still practice their faith in Christ, but decided to do that apart from the edifice of the brick and mortar church and corporate structure.

I know their faith to be as real as the next person's and that they believe this to be right and proper before Christ.

 

[City Smurf]

Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus does exactly what it says on the tin. There is absolutely no salvation outside of the Catholic Church. This is the dogmatic teaching of the Church from day one. It is found in the Scriptures, the writings of the Saints, the Popes and the documents from various councils.

Once, I accepted a rather broad interpretation of this. By that I mean visible unity with the Church is not always absolutely necessary (by virtue of baptism, everyone becomes a member of the Church and subject to the Roman Pontiff) and that through ignorance and through no fault of their own having not come into visible communion then they may find salvation. Today I am not so sure. I am coming more and more to believe that visible union with the Church is absolutely necessary (I'm border-line Feeneyite I guess).