BananaSlug
Life is an experiment, experience it!
- Aug 26, 2005
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No, trusting God is the only way to go. It worked for Noah. If we are under His protection, nothing will happen to us unless He allows it. And if it is time to go, we have a wonderful place prepared. Win, win.
No, trusting God is the only way to go. It worked for Noah. If we are under His protection, nothing will happen to us unless He allows it.
And if it is time to go, we have a wonderful place prepared. Win, win.
He didn't. There was no science back then. It is a creature of the recent past, and jumped into the fray wrong from the getgo.
Have you seen an olive tree grow from a seed to produce fruit in that time?
Nothing says it was the same. God indicates major differences. Noo reason from science to doubt.
It doesn't. The dendrochronological age stops at 4500 rings, or so, whenever this state started.
We were talking radioactive decay. Can you prove 1% there was any at all? No. You can't.
All we know is that there is decay now, and has been fro the recent past. We also know that the materials in some rocks, and etc, are now produced by decay. The assumption is that all materials of that sort were produced by decay, and at the present decay rate we can measure. But if the materials were already here before the decay state started, that assumption is null and oh, so void.
I have no reason to assume they were not here, involved in whatever process would exist in a created state universe.
Coming from the man who cannot provide any evidence for his same state past either. Again, can you provide any phenomena that cannot be explained using a pre science, "different state" past? No. You can't.
I have evidence galore for a different state past. The Sumers, and all early history of man, and the very word of God to booot. It doesn't get any better than that.
Carbon dating cannot support anything beyond where this state can be proven to exist. It becomes ratios, and levels. Not time units. The fast tree growth, pre split, means that no amount of rings matter in the least, whether they overlap, underlap, or do a lap dance with a willow.
All evidence beyond the baby grasp of present scienvce supports it. Bible, history, etc.
Too late. Science cannot wait till others provide non science based evidence for claims, to support it's very foundation. This is news?
You were asked to show us the pre 4500 ring level pics, because you made claims about them. Lurkers, behold, the lack of simple evidence for so called science claims.!!!!!
Same reason I am not formulating tooth fairy age. Carbon decay only applies in the present state.
Because I see the whole picture. The reason the lazy, half blind observer found nothing, was because he looked for nothing.
He was more interested in looking clever, and getting a grant. If he did see anything, he would immediatly try to explain it away using present based ideas.
If the former state hose was less heavy, it might throw him off, since he may only expect a huge impression in the grass.
Before radiation was, the levels alreasy were doing their thing not knowing or caring about how they one day would be involved in a new job in the decay process.
Only in the box of this state, and laws and universe fabric. You never considered that a different universe was here, and that the meterials also were already here. You assumed that they all got here as they are now produced. I kid you not.
20. For the invisible things of him from--or "since"
the creation of the world are clearly seen--the mind brightly beholding what the eye cannot discern.
being understood by the things that are made--Thus, the outward creation is not the parent but the interpreter of our faith in God. That faith has its primary sources within our own breast (Ro 1:19); but it becomes an intelligible and articulate conviction only through what we observe around us ("by the things which are made," Ro 1:20). And thus are the inner and the outer revelation of God the complement of each other, making up between them one universal and immovable conviction that God is. (With this striking apostolic statement agree the latest conclusions of the most profound speculative students of Theism). "
So, we need that inner spiritual life (inside us, or as the commentary puts it 'our breasts') to interpret or have it (creation) become intelligable. That means godless science is out of the loop!
And, if we intelligenly look at creation, that goes back to Adam, and the garden, we will see a lot of differences twixt then and now! Lifespans, groth rates, spuirits walking in the realm of men, etc etc. Hec, there was even a big change in creation at the curse!
Does that verse to you mean that Adam saw the same world from creation week after the curse!!!? Impossible.
Come to thinkk of it, that is biblical proof of hyper evolution! Ask anyone if moasquitos, or venomous snakes, etc are part of the curse. They therefore had to change awful fast! Same with some plants becoming weeds, etc. The evidence mounts.
Since what you want the opposite to can't be supported in the first place, no need exists to support the opposite of it! Elementary.
Tell you what, you wow me by supporting your pre 4500 tree ring claims, with a good photo of them, and I might consider it. If you can't do it here, why pretend you can somewhere else!?
The bioological rapidity by with which waste was broken down, indeed may have been fast. The rate also, on a similar vein, that plancton, or bacteria could grow, would have affected many aspects of life on earth.
Here is some pillow lava from the Giant's causway in Ireland. This pillow lava is 50-60million years old.
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This looks like an ending to one of my favorite sci-fi movies!
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LOVE that movie!The Beast from 20,000 Fathoms (1953) was a classic
Yup --- if you look closely at the pilot at the end of the movie --- it's Clint Eastwood!Tarantula (1955)?
Yup --- if you look closely at the pilot at the end of the movie --- it's Clint Eastwood!
I'm guilty of disliking some high-profile actors because they got their start in B-movies.A lot of actors started in "bad" movies. Man I can't believe how off topic I've allowed myself to get...
True, I don't recall a comet killing all life and hitting Job. Nothing happened to him that God didn't allow.Yeah it worked for Job too.
That's right. God allowed the adversary to all but kill him. With friends like that, who needs enemies.True, I don't recall a comet killing all life and hitting Job. Nothing happened to him that God didn't allow.
Maybe some confuse too easy. Thanks for admitting they use same state science to 'study the past'.However, we are using "same state" science to study past phenomena. The only one who could have changed the state of the universe would be God. Why would God want to confuse us?
God Personally gave the 120 year warning. People have assumed He meant till the flood. I assume it means till the changed universe. The spirit would not always strive with man, and so, apparently, the spiritual was separated. In the same chapter, is where it talks of the sons of god marrying women. Then at the end of the warning we get to the days of Peleg. In those days, it says, the earth was split. (divided) I take that to mean all the usual things as well as the spiritual from the physical, and us being left in the temporary state. We certainly got here somehow, creation wasn't made in a temporary state, it was to last forever.Can you give me a quote from the Bible that explicitly says such an event happened?
Some of them are in Gen 1 and 2. He planted a garden, and we ate of the fruits days later. Noah also sent out a bird, no trees. A week later, ..a tree with growth. Then there are the life spans, in many many verses. They are real long. Unlike today. Then there was sparating the waters from the land of the planet, and no big heat, because life was created days later. Then there was the spiritual level they saw, and tried to build up to in Babel. And sons of god marrying women. That doesn't go on today. And, of course the curse. Suddenly things changed, and some plants became weeds, and bugs also saw rapid change. For example mosquitos, and other pests are part of the curse. Animals no longer communicated directly to man. They feared and dreaded sinful man. Then there is the fact that the sun and earth and stars are to exist forever. That is impossible in this state. Big differences.Please provide the verses that indicate these major differences.
No. The dendrochronological age goes all the way to 12,000 years. For some trees, including bristlecone pine, ponderosa pine, and douglass fir, double rings are rare and easy to spot with a little practice. A bigger problem is missing rings; a bristlecone pine can have up to 5 percent of its rings missing. Thus, dates derived from dendrochronology, if they are suspect at all, should indicate ages too young.
The decay state and corruption will end when this state does. No such thing in the new heaven forever state. That means no radioactive decay. It never said that there was any in Eden either. How could there be if Adam was to live forever, and the earth he lived on, and the stars and moon and sun made for us? The time when the spiritual is last recorded as right here, is Babel. That was about the time of Peleg, and the split. That was about right where the Australian astronomer calculated the historical data about changing solstices, and axis of earth, and pinpointed a date. That was about 4400 yrs ago! he used 66 data points of ancient measurements, and temples, to see how the stars and sun reflected a changing axis over time. He made a curve from the data and the time it changed big time was precisely at the time of the split, a bit after the flood (he thought the tilt was the result of the flood). Now, one could argue a few data points, by trying to invoke new dating (so called) tecniques. But that still leaves most of them, and the curve remains intact! If I recall, he concluded that a big change had to have been in 2350 BC. (from memory, but it was close)So when did this "decay state" start? The Bible doesn't specifically say there was no radioactive decay. Can you provide a verse?
The evidence for the "same state" past is the fact we have not found anything to suggest a "different state" past. I could name some phenomena that wouldn't be explainable:
1. C14 age calculations vary widely after the 4500 mark.
Most dating in with things that take billions or millions of years to decay. I expect no great thing 4500 years ago there.2. All radioisotope dating methods vary widely after the 4500 year mark.
3. Finding any geologic phenomena that we cannot explain using present observations.
You forget it can also be explained using a different past. So??? Unless you do more that use a belief to explain all we see, you have no case at all. Anyone can do that.You are the one saying the past was different. We have not found any evidence that cannot be explained using "present state" science. Would you care to provide some phenomena thay cannot be explained? I really don't think you can do it.
Not at all. All evidence agrees, and better than with same state belief based premises. The rapid movement of continents, hyper evolution, historical records, a changed axis,...everything. My case is not based soley on science, but agrees with all we have! Your case needs a certain state universe fabric in the past, and has NO science to prove it! It is not supported by science. The different state is hand in glove with science, and also impervious to any possible actual science opposition!!So you are admitting that your scenario is not supported by science. That is all I need to hear! That is why you refuse to do formal debates!
yes it talks the talk, but can't walk the walk! Anyone can state things.This principle states that physical and biological processes that link current environmental processes with current patterns of tree growth must have been in operation in the past.
In other words, "the present is the key to the past," originally stated by James Hutton in 1785.
False prophesy, based on an imaginary past, and invented ages. They have NO CLUE about the past, so unless they admit that NO CLUE is their key, they have nothing at all but religion.However, dendrochronology adds a new "twist" to this principle: "the past is the key to the future." In other words, by knowing environmental conditions that operated in the past (by analyzing such conditions in tree rings), we can better predict and/or manage such environmental conditions in the future.
Hence, by knowing what the climate-tree growth relationship is in the 20th century, we can reconstruct climate from tree rings well before weather records were ever kept!
For example, the graph above shows a long-term precipitation reconstruction for northern New Mexico based on tree rings (click on the image to see an enlarged version of the graph). The reconstruction was developed by calibrating the widths of tree rings from the 1900s with rainfall records from the 1900s. Because we assume that conditions must have been similar in the past, we can then use the widths of tree rings as a proxy (or substitute) for actual rainfall amounts prior to the historical record.
Can you give a specific reason why using such methodology is wrong?
There was evidence, a record that recorded it filling the pool! But the guy wanting the credit, and the grant, refused to accept all but his criteria as evidence. So the poor sod was left in the dark.You just admitted there is no evidence. No matter how hard we look you said, "the evidence of a hose was not detectable, all that was seen was the present hose". If there was no evidence for a different "hose" can you give a decent reason why we should assume there was a different "hose"?
If tooth fairy ideas explain the past, then...? I should buy them too!? Noo. You need to show the basis, and evidence, and etc.If "present state" ideas can effectively explain past phenomena, there is no reason to assume otherwise. You said it was different, show us the evidence!
The only way the former state hose wouldn't leave an impression would be if:
1. It weighed nothing.
2. Somebody purposely erased the evidence. Somebody had to come up and move the hose and erase their footprints.
I would actually love to see you give me a Bible verse that says radiation didn't exist. Go ahead.
Because there was no evidence to assume otherwise, unless you can actually provide some...
I see pushed up mountain ranges, like the one that the old bristlecone pine is growing on. I see that as evidence that they were pushed up.So can you look at a mountain and see evidence for this "past state"? If you say "yes" you are contradicting yourself!
It was nor sped up, it was the natural growth of the time. Compared to our slow groeth, it is sped up.Where does the Bible specifically say plant growth was sped up?
Me either. However, later, after the floood, I do see many changes that mean the fabric of the universe was no longer the same.Yes. All God did was curse Adam by making him toil the ground for food and cause brambles to grow, curse Eve by giving her childbearing pains, and cursed the serpent. I don't see anything else about cursing all of creation.
No. What gave you that idea?So are you saying the Bible is wrong about God resting on the seventh day from creating?
No.The Bible says God rested from creating, you say he continued creating.
Or that they existed at all!We do not see any evidence to assume the laws of physics were drastically different in the past as compared to now.
We know pillow lava forms underwater. They are created when magma reaches the surface but, as there is a large difference in temperature between the lava and the water, the surface of the emergent tongue cools very quickly, forming a skin. The tongue continues to lengthen and inflate with more lava, forming a lobe, until the pressure of the magma becomes sufficient to rupture the skin and start the formation of a new eruption point nearer the vent. This process produces a series of interconnecting lobate shapes that are pillow-like in cross-section. The skin cools a lot faster than the inside of the pillow, so it is very fine grained, with a glassy texture. The magma inside the pillow cools more slowly, so is slightly coarser grained than the skin, but still classified as fine grained.
Here is an example of recently formed pillow lava.
Here is some pillow lava from the Giant's causway in Ireland. This pillow lava is 50-60million years old.
So we know that modern pillow lava is formed underwater. Can you give any reason for us to assume ancient pillow lava formed any differently? We know that the extreme heat of volcanic activity "resets" the radioisotope clock. Can you give any reason to assume it was different in the past?
Can you give me any reason to accept same state dating? Why would I care about water covering stuff? In what way is there some sort of mystery to that pillow lava in Ireland? (silly so called dates aside)
I can use more than just tree rings. I've been trying hard to find a photo of the Methuselah tree ring core. I also realized that the core sample is probably over 3 feet long!
I see. You have been trying. Interesting. Let us know when you succeed or fail
Told you it was a challenge.
Algea in the former state, it stands to reason could bloom real fast. But, I fail to see any point in your paragraph. Was there a question in there?Here we call them algal blooms and lead to huge dieoffs of fish due an extreme depletion of dissolved oxygen. If God cursed creation after original sin, would the effect be the same? Why would the curse before the "split" be less harsh than what we are cursed with now?
That's right. God allowed the adversary to all but kill him. With friends like that, who needs enemies.
More accurately they use science to study the past and to date there is absolutely nothing to indicate that this so called "different state past" existed at all. All we have on this is some goolge search that points us to a poster calling himself dad and not finding a single person who seems to agree with him and not one shred of evidence to support such claim. Meanwhile science marches on as it does not work based on bias religous opinions.Maybe some confuse too easy. Thanks for admitting they use same state science to 'study the past'.
God Personally gave the 120 year warning. People have assumed He meant till the flood. I assume it means till the changed universe.
The spirit would not always strive with man, and so, apparently, the spiritual was separated. In the same chapter, is where it talks of the sons of god marrying women. Then at the end of the warning we get to the days of Peleg. In those days, it says, the earth was split. (divided) I take that to mean all the usual things as well as the spiritual from the physical, and us being left in the temporary state. We certainly got here somehow, creation wasn't made in a temporary state, it was to last forever.
Some of them are in Gen 1 and 2. He planted a garden, and we ate of the fruits days later. Noah also sent out a bird, no trees. A week later, ..a tree with growth.
Then there are the life spans, in many many verses. They are real long. Unlike today.
And, of course the curse. Suddenly things changed, and some plants became weeds, and bugs also saw rapid change. For example mosquitos, and other pests are part of the curse. Animals no longer communicated directly to man. They feared and dreaded sinful man. Then there is the fact that the sun and earth and stars are to exist forever. That is impossible in this state. Big differences.
Would it happen to be rings after the 4500 year level??? If not, show us some! As for the so called ages, derived from lots of rings, and nearby dead trees as well, I already covered that. It is meaningless if trees gre fast then.
The decay state and corruption will end when this state does. No such thing in the new heaven forever state. That means no radioactive decay. It never said that there was any in Eden either. How could there be if Adam was to live forever, and the earth he lived on, and the stars and moon and sun made for us? The time when the spiritual is last recorded as right here, is Babel. That was about the time of Peleg, and the split. That was about right where the Australian astronomer calculated the historical data about changing solstices, and axis of earth, and pinpointed a date. That was about 4400 yrs ago! he used 66 data points of ancient measurements, and temples, to see how the stars and sun reflected a changing axis over time. He made a curve from the data and the time it changed big time was precisely at the time of the split, a bit after the flood (he thought the tilt was the result of the flood). Now, one could argue a few data points, by trying to invoke new dating (so called) tecniques. But that still leaves most of them, and the curve remains intact! If I recall, he concluded that a big change had to have been in 2350 BC. (from memory, but it was close)
There are no age calculations after that time, unless a same state existed, and can be proven to have existed.
Most dating in with things that take billions or millions of years to decay. I expect no great thing 4500 years ago there.
Only present observations have ever been used, so no one knows that.
You forget it can also be explained using a different past. So??? Unless you do more that use a belief to explain all we see, you have no case at all. Anyone can do that.
Not at all. All evidence agrees, and better than with same state belief based premises.
The rapid movement of continents, hyper evolution, historical records, a changed axis,...everything. My case is not based soley on science, but agrees with all we have! Your case needs a certain state universe fabric in the past, and has NO science to prove it! It is not supported by science. The different state is hand in glove with science, and also impervious to any possible actual science opposition!!
yes it talks the talk, but can't walk the walk! Anyone can state things.
Lurkers, hear them admit it!!!
False prophesy, based on an imaginary past, and invented ages. They have NO CLUE about the past, so unless they admit that NO CLUE is their key, they have nothing at all but religion.
False! They merely scare people into some imaginary hell, and into their religious, godless fold.
Well, if all we do is go back 200 years, I have no problem with it, except, that I am not sure recent past trends are what is expected for man in the last days.
There was evidence, a record that recorded it filling the pool! But the guy wanting the credit, and the grant, refused to accept all but his criteria as evidence. So the poor sod was left in the dark.
If tooth fairy ideas explain the past, then...? I should buy them too!? Noo. You need to show the basis, and evidence, and etc.
Or, the hose was from a helicopter high above. Not sitting on the grass. Or... the turf was changed that day!!! Or..it was shot on an angle from the next yard! or...etc etc etc.
Well, would there not be some radiation if we grabbed Asia, and moved it quickly, many hundreds of miles? A lot of heat. Well, the waters and the lands of the planet, were separated. Yet, there was no radiated heat! Life was put here a few days after.
9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. 10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas:
Nor any evidence to warrant assuming a certain universe state back then. But we do have bible and historical evidence.
see pushed up mountain ranges, like the one that the old bristlecone pine is growing on. I see that as evidence that they were pushed up.
It was nor sped up, it was the natural growth of the time. Compared to our slow groeth, it is sped up.
Me either. However, later, after the floood, I do see many changes that mean the fabric of the universe was no longer the same.
No. What gave you that idea?
Can you give me any reason to accept same state dating? Why would I care about water covering stuff? In what way is there some sort of mystery to that pillow lava in Ireland? (silly so called dates aside)
I see. You have been trying. Interesting. Let us know when you succeed or fail
Told you it was a challenge.
Algea in the former state, it stands to reason could bloom real fast. But, I fail to see any point in your paragraph. Was there a question in there?
Some of them are in Gen 1 and 2. He planted a garden, and we ate of the fruits days later. Noah also sent out a bird, no trees. A week later, ..a tree with growth.
No choice, why deny history, the spiritual, and the bible for no reason?So you are assuming a different state past.
No, I am deducing that the physical only laws did not exist. And will not exist. What was and will be in place is also spiritual, and quite different.So you are just assuming this means the physical laws of the past were different...
One can deduce from the situation, and circumstances that the news of a little growing twig from a tree meant enough to rejoice, and get off the ark! In this day and age, with all life on a big boat, after a full year and change of being on it, and the whole world flooded, and all other life on land destroyed...I would not even much care about a tree growing. Back then it meant something exciting. We can also look at how they fed all the creatures on the ark. Plants are what most things ate. If not almost all things. If there was rapid plant growth in effect, feeders would be simple planting trays! A new crop every day or maybe a few, for grasses, or maybe a few days..etc. Plenty to eat for everyone. Therefore it woulld not be until the plants were known to be growing out on the earth again, that it would be safe to get off.That does not mean no trees, just no living trees. Maybe dead trees put out new growth? It doesn't specifically say in the Bible.
Yes! I am. The Sumers mentioned long life spans. They were only, in effect, pagans, however, so I do not look to their record for detailed accuracy, and truth. But the general concepts of a flood, and long lives in their records are significant.So you are assuming a different state past is required for longer lives? What other religions mention longer lives in the past?
Evidence?
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